Chauvin Verdict

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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Maddy » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:19 pm

sophie wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:20 pm
I expect his attorneys will appeal, so...no immediate resolution, I suspect. For the moment Minneapolis has dodged the riot bullet.
I agree with Sophie. . . This one surely will be appealed. Under normal circumstances, I'd say there's a darned good chance of this verdict getting overturned, but nothing is normal these days, so who the hell knows.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by moda0306 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:37 pm

Just 4 other cops have been convicted of Murder for on-duty Killings since 2004. 3 of them have been overturned.

https://www.bgsu.edu/content/dam/BGSU/h ... ughter.pdf

Watching conservatives hand-wring over this is rich.

ACAB.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by SomeDude » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:49 pm

Maddy wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:19 pm
sophie wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:20 pm
I expect his attorneys will appeal, so...no immediate resolution, I suspect. For the moment Minneapolis has dodged the riot bullet.
I agree with Sophie. . . This one surely will be appealed. Under normal circumstances, I'd say there's a darned good chance of this verdict getting overturned, but nothing is normal these days, so who the hell knows.
Imagine what would happen to the judge that overturns it. Most hated villain in America, responsible for riots and death. Career over, very dangerous.

The mob rules now.

I'd give it 1% chance.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by glennds » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:58 pm

Maddy wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:19 pm
sophie wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:20 pm
I expect his attorneys will appeal, so...no immediate resolution, I suspect. For the moment Minneapolis has dodged the riot bullet.
I agree with Sophie. . . This one surely will be appealed. Under normal circumstances, I'd say there's a darned good chance of this verdict getting overturned, but nothing is normal these days, so who the hell knows.
Well the immediate resolution is that today Chauvin is a convicted murderer in county jail awaiting sentencing and yesterday he wasn't. In the event his attorneys appeal, he will be presenting to the appeals court as a convicted murder seeking to undo his conviction, definitely not the same place he was in yesterday.

Cornell did a study on appeals and found that lower court cases were affirmed 92% of the time or more. I do not know if this number changes in the criminal cases or not. I tuned in to Fox news to hear some of their commentary tonight, and even the most conservative among their talking heads stopped short of declaring the outcome unfair or wrong. So if an appeals court finds a basis for overturning, it will be fascinating to see what it is. The judge in this trial seemed to run a pretty tight ship.
Last edited by glennds on Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Xan » Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:59 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:37 pm
Just 4 other cops have been convicted of Murder for on-duty Killings since 2004. 3 of them have been overturned.

https://www.bgsu.edu/content/dam/BGSU/h ... ughter.pdf

Watching conservatives hand-wring over this is rich.

ACAB.
Moda, have you had some kind of personal negative experience with the police? On this particular issue you seem to have an absolutist bent which you don't seem to have on anything else.

I would hazard that saying that ALL of any group are "bastards" (which I take to be your meaning?) is likely not productive, helpful to one's cause, or factually correct.

Also, isn't that language demeaning to people of non-traditional parentage?
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by moda0306 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:02 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:49 pm
Maddy wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:19 pm
sophie wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 4:20 pm
I expect his attorneys will appeal, so...no immediate resolution, I suspect. For the moment Minneapolis has dodged the riot bullet.
I agree with Sophie. . . This one surely will be appealed. Under normal circumstances, I'd say there's a darned good chance of this verdict getting overturned, but nothing is normal these days, so who the hell knows.
Imagine what would happen to the judge that overturns it. Most hated villain in America, responsible for riots and death. Career over, very dangerous.

The mob rules now.

I'd give it 1% chance.
While "the mob" can certainly interfere with justice, and just might have in this case, so does the bureaucracy of the police state. We've never had the rule of law. It's always been a myth. Now we are just seeing it laid out in front of us on video-tape. In absence of the rule of law, the population has every right to take to the streets, do they not? Tree of liberty and all that?
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by moda0306 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:22 pm

Xan wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:59 pm
moda0306 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 8:37 pm
Just 4 other cops have been convicted of Murder for on-duty Killings since 2004. 3 of them have been overturned.

https://www.bgsu.edu/content/dam/BGSU/h ... ughter.pdf

Watching conservatives hand-wring over this is rich.

ACAB.
Moda, have you had some kind of personal negative experience with the police? On this particular issue you seem to have an absolutist bent which you don't seem to have on anything else.

I would hazard that saying that ALL of any group are "bastards" (which I take to be your meaning?) is likely not productive, helpful to one's cause, or factually correct.

Also, isn't that language demeaning to people of non-traditional parentage?

1) "All" has a lot to do with the "blue code of silence" that 99% of cops tend to exhibit. If you see your coworker commit a crime, at the very least it should involve an attempt to deescalate or strictly criticize their methods, or turn them in as the very premise your so-called authority rides on is the "rule of law." But for the sake of pragmatism, for now, I'll settle for at least a moderate display of internal accountability.

Almost Every. Goddamn. Time you see terrible behavior by a cop, there's almost always a soft if-not hard look-away or cover-up by his coworkers and department. If the DA can't help but pretend to try to seek charges, he/she is almost always totally pulling their punches, due mostly (probably) to the institutional cohesiveness between the DA and police departments.

This stuff is just unbelievably corrupt when you start paying attention to it. Most conservatives and the propertarian/conservatarian wing of libertarians would rather just ignore it while they crack heads of people they don't like.

2) To the use of the B-Word, everyone has a different line of offense, and I haven't ever thought that word, when used generically, tended to hurt the feelings of people without fathers, so it never struck me as particularly sensitive, but I could totally be wrong here.. I never want to attack anyone on something so personal and uncontrollable. I'll defer to my other phrases... "Police are a Gang." or "Police are a Protection Racket."

3) I had mostly respect for police in middle school, high school, and most of the way into college. Since then, I've had some moderately negative experiences with police that made me start to question their general will to "do good" vs just generally being sociopaths at worst, careerist bullies quite often, or lap-dogs of their protection racket at best. I've seen the "mask come off" in some very interesting and unsettling ways as I saw one cop do something somewhere between bad and terrible, and then expecting to see a rich debate by their brothers in blue, I saw the whole gang cling together to defend the behavior.

This really got my antennae up, and for some other reasons fell into much more of a civil libertarian mindset than I'd been before (became very anti-war, anti-police-state, pro-4th/1st/even-2nd amendment, anti-drug-war). I started to pay much more attention to types of analysis the media just doesn't cover, and even most libertarians are too cucked to their love of property to embrace. Oddly, if you want to... I mean actually WANT to... learn about the history of corruption in policing, there's a wealth of stuff out there.

So yeah I'm quite aggressively anti-police. They're essentially a gang, as they don't enforce the law blindly, but extremely selectively, and in ways that protect their careers and institution, and not the lives and liberties of the citizens they swear to serve.
Last edited by moda0306 on Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Maddy » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:31 pm

Well 99 percent of the time, the shoe is on the other foot--i.e., it's the young black men in poverty-stricken neighborhoods who suffer the injustice of a system that has declared them guilty before they ever set foot in a courtroom. So procedural integrity is an issue that should be of vital concern to those who claim to care about racial and class-based injustice.

And for a time, it was. That is, until the political left wing decided to respond to institutional corruption by becoming just as corrupt. Turns out they didn't care as much about corruption as getting a seat at the table.

And I disagree with Moda's assessment that the rule of law has never meant anything. Did it work in every case? Of course not. But it was an ideal to which jurists for the most part aspired, and the nearly constant parsing of the law when it came to matters of criminal procedure reflected that concern. You could, the vast majority of the time, predict how a case would turn out. You could honestly tell a client that if they played by the rules, things would work out okay.

Something happened in the early '90s, when I personally witnessed the system breaking down on nearly all fronts. Attorneys who had no conscience about fabricating evidence, judges acting like cowboys, appeals courts simply making up law to suit their policy preferences. For someone who worked in the system day in and day out, the change was quite noticeable.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by moda0306 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:44 pm

Maddy wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:31 pm
Well 99 percent of the time, the shoe is on the other foot--i.e., it's the young black men in poverty-stricken neighborhoods who suffer the injustice of a system that has declared them guilty before they ever set foot in a courtroom. So procedural integrity is an issue that should be of vital concern to those who claim to care about racial and class-based injustice.

And for a time, it was. That is, until the political left wing decided to respond to institutional corruption by becoming just as corrupt. Turns out they didn't care as much about corruption as getting a seat at the table.

And I disagree with Moda's assessment that the rule of law has never meant anything. Did it work for everybody? Of course not. But it was an ideal to which jurists for the most part aspired, and the nearly constant parsing of the law when it came to matters of criminal procedure reflected that concern. Something happened in the early '90s, when I personally witnessed the system breaking down on nearly all fronts. Attorneys who had no conscience about fabricating evidence, judges acting like cowboys, appeals courts simply making up law to suit their policy preferences. For someone who worked in the system day in and day out, the change was quite noticeable.
If 99% of the time the shoe is on the other foot, and the 1% it's on this foot RARELY gets convictions because the prosecutor won't try (I'd point you to the paltry number of convictions of cops over the last couple decades if you disagree with this assertion), then why are you talking about the political left that's the problem, when it's obvious that the vast, vast majority of the time this criminal-justice corruption is going the other way?

There have always been pockets of the left willing to engage in terrible acts... either the far-left radicals willing to engage in Bolshevik/Jacobin type violence to get their way, or the center-left war-mongers and political elite that have no principles. It's always been a pretty sparse wing of civil libertarians, sometimes made up of hard-leftists (a different sort from the illiberal wing), sometimes even centrists, sometimes (rarely) conservative-leaning folks, who have pushed these issues in the right direction.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Maddy » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:53 pm

Without examining the individual cases in which police officers have been acquitted, the fact that only a small percentage result in conviction is meaningless.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by glennds » Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:53 pm

For anyone interested, a MN criminal defense attorney has written up a very thorough post on the technical aspects of the Chauvin trial, where it goes from here, sentencing, appeals, timelines, etc. Much of it is unique to MN pursuant to that state's laws.
I had never heard of Blakely factors before, so that part was educational.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ChauvinTrialDi ... ring_your/
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by moda0306 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:01 pm

Maddy wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:53 pm
Without examining the individual cases in which police officers have been acquitted, the fact that only a small percentage result in conviction is meaningless.
Would you generally describe the process by which police are arrested, charged and tried for crimes to be above board and not corrupt? Obviously this would differ case by case and jurisdiction by jurisdiction, but I'm talking generally, in most cases... I didn't expect push-back on this, as even my more conservative & cop-apologist friends don't tend to dispute this one. They just consider it a worthwhile part of the system that it protects itself from prosecution, because "their jobs are unbelievably hard." (Obviously simplifying and paraphrasing)

But even if you could answer that question "Yes, for the most part, that process is fair," then you're still left with your assertion that "99% of the time the shoe is on the other foot" of some poor minority that is the victim of, as you put it, "a system that has declared them guilty before they ever set foot in a courtroom."

If that's 99% of the cases, and Chauvin is the 1%, why is the left throwing this cop under the bus the only one worth shining a light on? How in god's name is this just one more issue of "the left being out of control," when they're only just now getting their hands on the wheel here. Sounds like this is a story of, at best, "a corrupt system normally used to arrest and convict young black men is being used by the left, this one time, to convict a cop of murder, using many of the same corrupt tactics."
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by tomfoolery » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:55 am

Xan wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:52 pm
pugchief wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 1:40 pm
7036df2073be.jpg
Not only that, but for the President of the United States to try to overtly try to bully a jury in a criminal case by saying there's only one right answer? Wow! What would the media have done if Trump had done something like that?
I don't know about Trump, but if President Obama had a son, that son would look like Trayvon Martin.
💉
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Apr 21, 2021 5:10 am

I'm reminded of a boss I had that said "the best way to get out of trouble is to stay out of trouble". But of course that requires one to take responsibility for their actions .... an increasing lost art, especially in a culture that celebrates victimhood. :(
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Maddy » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:25 am

moda0306 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:01 pm
If that's 99% of the cases, and Chauvin is the 1%, why is the left throwing this cop under the bus the only one worth shining a light on? How in god's name is this just one more issue of "the left being out of control," when they're only just now getting their hands on the wheel here. Sounds like this is a story of, at best, "a corrupt system normally used to arrest and convict young black men is being used by the left, this one time, to convict a cop of murder, using many of the same corrupt tactics."
The idea of throwing anyone under the bus to "even the score," for for any other political purpose, is abhorrent to me. You can talk all day long about inequities in the justice system, and none of it is the least bit relevant to the question whether this individual was unjustly tried and convicted.
Last edited by Maddy on Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by moda0306 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:54 am

Maddy wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:25 am
moda0306 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:01 pm
If that's 99% of the cases, and Chauvin is the 1%, why is the left throwing this cop under the bus the only one worth shining a light on? How in god's name is this just one more issue of "the left being out of control," when they're only just now getting their hands on the wheel here. Sounds like this is a story of, at best, "a corrupt system normally used to arrest and convict young black men is being used by the left, this one time, to convict a cop of murder, using many of the same corrupt tactics."
The idea of throwing anyone under the bus to "even the score," for for any other political purpose, is abhorrent to me. You can talk all day long about inequities in the justice system, and none of it is the least bit relevant to the question whether this individual was unjustly tried and convicted.
So it’s abhorrent when “the left” does it 1% of the time, but not even worth mentioning when it happens the other 99% of the time? Why all the special outrage now and and not the other 99% of the time? Like I said it sounds like at worst, you’re asserting that the left is simply lowering to the tactics of a formerly centrist/conservative criminal justice system, and you’re some how newly angry about it...

Also you did you see my question about the procedures around arresting, charging and trying cops?
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Maddy » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:06 am

moda0306 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:54 am
Maddy wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:25 am
moda0306 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:01 pm
If that's 99% of the cases, and Chauvin is the 1%, why is the left throwing this cop under the bus the only one worth shining a light on? How in god's name is this just one more issue of "the left being out of control," when they're only just now getting their hands on the wheel here. Sounds like this is a story of, at best, "a corrupt system normally used to arrest and convict young black men is being used by the left, this one time, to convict a cop of murder, using many of the same corrupt tactics."
The idea of throwing anyone under the bus to "even the score," for for any other political purpose, is abhorrent to me. You can talk all day long about inequities in the justice system, and none of it is the least bit relevant to the question whether this individual was unjustly tried and convicted.
Also you did you see my question about the procedures around arresting, charging and trying cops?
I saw it, but to have any educated opinion on the subject would require a fair bit of research and a familiarity with the facts of individual cases, which is something I don't have. You can't just throw out statistics and start making assumptions based upon the wrong-headed idea that in a truly just world police officers, judges, suburban housewives and street thugs would all be arrested and convicted in equal numbers.

Moda, I've noticed a pattern in your posts. You seem to abhor principle. In fact, you regularly mock it. Your answer to corruption on one end of the political spectrum is to ferret out and shine the light on corruption on the other end of the spectrum. For you it's all about evening the political score, as opposed to making the system more principled and holding people (whether they're cops, judges, legislators, or street thugs) personally accountable.

Well, you're in plenty of good company. Seems, from this morning's news, that yesterday's conviction isn't enough for the lynch mob.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by sophie » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:36 am

Moda, in my posts I have not commented on the facts of the case - because none of us are qualified to do so, not having examined them in the same level of detail that the jury was obliged to do. Chauvin's conviction on all counts might be perfectly legit.

My concerns - and Maddy's - has to do with whether the defendant got a fair trial. I think we all agree that he did not, and therein lies the problem. If he doesn't get a fair trial then who does? Speaking out about this miscarriage of justice is the best possible way to ensure that when you're the one in that position, you get the fair shake that you deserve.

If that makes me a "conservative" then yeah, I guess that's the case. Because "liberal" has now been redefined to mean something uncomfortably close to "authoritarian".

In the meantime, if you feel the way you do about police, let us know whether you plan to call them the next time you get mugged or your house gets broken into. Or if you expect them to keep your neighborhood safe, so that you don't have to worry about these things on a daily basis. To be completely consistent, you shouldn't.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by moda0306 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:38 am

Maddy wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:06 am
moda0306 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:54 am
Maddy wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 7:25 am
moda0306 wrote:
Tue Apr 20, 2021 10:01 pm
If that's 99% of the cases, and Chauvin is the 1%, why is the left throwing this cop under the bus the only one worth shining a light on? How in god's name is this just one more issue of "the left being out of control," when they're only just now getting their hands on the wheel here. Sounds like this is a story of, at best, "a corrupt system normally used to arrest and convict young black men is being used by the left, this one time, to convict a cop of murder, using many of the same corrupt tactics."
The idea of throwing anyone under the bus to "even the score," for for any other political purpose, is abhorrent to me. You can talk all day long about inequities in the justice system, and none of it is the least bit relevant to the question whether this individual was unjustly tried and convicted.
Also you did you see my question about the procedures around arresting, charging and trying cops?
I saw it, but to have any educated opinion on the subject would require a fair bit of research and a familiarity with the facts of individual cases, which is something I don't have. You can't just throw out statistics and start making assumptions based upon the wrong-headed idea that in a truly just world police officers, judges, suburban housewives and street thugs would all be arrested and convicted in equal numbers.

Moda, I've noticed a pattern in your posts. You seem to abhor principle. In fact, you regularly mock it. Your answer to corruption on one end of the political spectrum is to ferret out and shine the light on corruption on the other end of the spectrum. For you it's all about evening the political score, as opposed to making the system more principled and holding people (whether they're cops, judges, legislators, or street thugs) personally accountable.

Well, you're in plenty of good company. Seems, from this morning's news, that yesterday's conviction isn't enough for the lynch mob.
Maddy I’m surprised that your confident enough in your knowledge of the system to make such a damning indictment about how it treats young black men, but have next to no opinion on how police are handled internally by the same system. It’s a massive part of the corruption of the system itself. That said, it’s only a part of the overall point I was making.

The other more over-arching point is how you can UNIQUELY damn “the left” for engaging in tactics that 99% of the time are being used by centrists and conservatives in our criminal justice complex.

I get finding it abhorrent.

But it’s certainly not uniquely abhorrent. In fact, it’s a tiny fraction of the total abhorrence of our system, by your very description. Yet I have only ever heard you complain about “the left” as a unique evil.

Maybe principles do exist. But in this case I’m not advocating “evening the political score.” I think Chauvin murdered Floyd and was rightfully convicted. You’re the one using the “evening the political score” narrative, which I’m acknowledging is a possibility. But you’ve already admitted that 99% of the time when the system is doing this shit, it’s to a young black man society has already judged. Yet you never complain about those times. Only the 1% of the time “the left” supposedly gets their hands on the wheel and can convict a cop.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by flyingpylon » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:40 am

Our local school district sent the following email 10 minutes after the Chauvin verdict was announced. Does this seem appropriate?
Support for Families Reacting to Chauvin Verdict

Dear XXXXXX School Community,

We hope the outcome of the Derek Chauvin trial will begin to bring healing to our community and address the many factors that we know adversely affect families of color. While justice prevailed in this case, the racial trauma and repeated exposure to stories of violence and inequalities is still an on-going concern.

We cannot address problems that we refuse to see, and we pledge to do better for all our students. The deaths of Ahmaud Arbery, Tamir Rice, Breonna Taylor and recently, Daunte Wright, are a critical reminder of policies and practices which have negatively shaped the experiences of our black and brown children and that we have more work to do to create and sustain a just and equitable society and school system.

We also understand the pain that many of our students and teachers feel when discussing the inequities in the current judicial system. We have heard from parents who have described the task of preparing their children for the two Americas. The racial division that we see today is not a new phenomenon; it is centuries-old, embedded in the fabric of our country. Dr. King articulated the impact of racism when he noted, “But tragically and unfortunately, there is another America.” And so today, we affirm the following:

- Black Lives Matter.
- We stand united with our students of color and allies in the fight against injustice, racism and discrimination.
- It is our responsibility as a school community to uplift our core values of awareness, advocacy, social justice and empathy.
- We are not powerless to change; we are committed to moving beyond good intentions to measurable and impactful results.
- Racial justice initiatives are for the common good of all children.
- We will continue to engage stakeholders in conversations, even when it is uncomfortable. All XXXXXX students benefit from an anti-racism education.
- We commit to turning the mirror inward and advancing an anti-racist and equity-based learning community.

Students are encouraged to reach out to their building equity coaches, counselors, teachers and administrators to help in processing the news about the Chauvin trial. Attached are tips to keep in mind when discussing this event with your family. More information and resources are also available on the XXXXXX Equity Page.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by moda0306 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:56 am

flyingpylon wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:40 am
Our local school district sent the following email 10 minutes after the Chauvin verdict was announced. Does this seem appropriate?
Support for Families Reacting to Chauvin Verdict

Dear XXXXXX School Community,

We hope the outcome of the Derek Chauvin trial will begin to bring healing to our community and address the many factors that we know adversely affect families of color. While justice prevailed in this case, the racial trauma and repeated exposure to stories of violence and inequalities is still an on-going concern.

We cannot address problems that we refuse to see, and we pledge to do better for all our students. The deaths of Ahmaud Arbery, Tamir Rice, Breonna Taylor and recently, Daunte Wright, are a critical reminder of policies and practices which have negatively shaped the experiences of our black and brown children and that we have more work to do to create and sustain a just and equitable society and school system.

We also understand the pain that many of our students and teachers feel when discussing the inequities in the current judicial system. We have heard from parents who have described the task of preparing their children for the two Americas. The racial division that we see today is not a new phenomenon; it is centuries-old, embedded in the fabric of our country. Dr. King articulated the impact of racism when he noted, “But tragically and unfortunately, there is another America.” And so today, we affirm the following:

- Black Lives Matter.
- We stand united with our students of color and allies in the fight against injustice, racism and discrimination.
- It is our responsibility as a school community to uplift our core values of awareness, advocacy, social justice and empathy.
- We are not powerless to change; we are committed to moving beyond good intentions to measurable and impactful results.
- Racial justice initiatives are for the common good of all children.
- We will continue to engage stakeholders in conversations, even when it is uncomfortable. All XXXXXX students benefit from an anti-racism education.
- We commit to turning the mirror inward and advancing an anti-racist and equity-based learning community.

Students are encouraged to reach out to their building equity coaches, counselors, teachers and administrators to help in processing the news about the Chauvin trial. Attached are tips to keep in mind when discussing this event with your family. More information and resources are also available on the XXXXXX Equity Page.
No. They should stay out of lamenting on court verdicts.
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by Maddy » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:30 am

moda0306 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:38 am
The other more over-arching point is how you can UNIQUELY damn “the left” for engaging in tactics that 99% of the time are being used by centrists and conservatives in our criminal justice complex.
Remember, I used to be on "the left." A good part of my early work in law was in the state appeals court system, where I worked on issues predominately having to do with civil liberties. That was before "the left" went down the dark road and abandoned those values nearly entirely.

As for your assessment that "99% of the time" the procedural tactics used to unjustly convict are "used by centrists and conservatives," I see no evidence of that being the case. The Left has its own unique way of systematically oppressing minorities and other disenfranchised classes, which is to feed the very conditions that cause them to be generationally condemned to their status as members of an impoverished and uneducated underclass, and to reinforce stereotypes that assume they can never be anything but welfare cases and career criminals--all for the purpose of creating a voting block who responds in pavlovian fashion to the next promise of a constant stream of table scraps.

When the dems actually adopt policies that promote lawful, productive activity on the part of minority communities--instead of feeding dependency, lawlessness and strife--wake me up.
Last edited by Maddy on Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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sophie
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by sophie » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:38 am

What Maddy said!

Almost everything that the Democratic/liberal establishment claims to do for racial minorities contains in it an assumption that they need help to survive in our society, and are congenitally unable - by virtue of their race - to do so on their own.

How on earth can you not call that "racist"?

Also, have you noticed how nearly all these examples of police brutality are occurring in very liberal cities? I find that most interesting. Let me know the next time there's a police shooting in Cheyenne, Boise, Fargo, or Omaha, just in case I missed them.
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moda0306
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by moda0306 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:50 am

Maddy wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:30 am
moda0306 wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 8:38 am
The other more over-arching point is how you can UNIQUELY damn “the left” for engaging in tactics that 99% of the time are being used by centrists and conservatives in our criminal justice complex.
Remember, I used to be on "the left." A good part of my early work in law was in the state appeals court system, where I worked on issues predominately having to do with civil liberties. That was before "the left" went down the dark road and abandoned those values nearly entirely.

As for your assessment that "99% of the time" the procedural tactics used to unjustly convict are "used by centrists and conservatives," I see no evidence of that being the case. The Left has its own unique way of systematically oppressing minorities and other disenfranchised classes, which is to feed the very conditions that cause them to be generationally condemned to their status as members of an impoverished and uneducated underclass, and to reinforce stereotypes that assume they can never be anything but welfare cases and career criminals--all for the purpose of creating a voting block who responds in pavlovian fashion to the next promise of a constant stream of table scraps.

When the dems actually adopt policies that promote lawful, productive activity on the part of minority communities--instead of feeding dependency, lawlessness and strife--wake me up.
You've asserted that 99% of the time there's an inequity in our justice system, it's towards young black men. Even if the left's policies are to blame for the conditions that lead to stereotypes, you're making an absolutely damning assertion about our justice system itself, which is largely made up of centrists and conservatives... people you never decry as part of the problem. Now you say the left has gotten a hold of the justice system, this 1% of the time, and you seem extremely, devastatingly concerned about the future of the system. It just seems totally imbalanced.

What types of civil liberties issues did you work on?
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Re: Chauvin Verdict

Post by glennds » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:59 am

Certainly race is and continues to be the central theme of the Chauvin trial. But if you're willing to look beyond race, there is an issue at play that is quintessentially Libertarian IMO, that issue being limitations on police powers regardless of race.

Try conducting a thought experiment and pretend for a moment that GF was white, or that Chauvin was black, thus eliminating the race difference and the associated politics from the equation. Temporarily ignore the media and the politicians. In doing so we're left with a situation where the question is simply whether a reasonable person would deem the police use of force exerted on a citizen acceptable, in the context of constitutionally guaranteed protections.

One place where I'm sure we agree that the Bill of Rights has more than a passing concern with limitation on the scope of police power. Could yesterday's verdict be as much about civil liberty and the limits of police power as much as it had to do with race and race-centric civil rights? Does thinking about it in terms of the former instead of the latter affect your view? And does the issue now move from the Left to the Right (or at least somewhere other than Left) in your mind?
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