Minimum Living Wage

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tomfoolery
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Minimum Living Wage

Post by tomfoolery » Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:49 pm

If businesses can't afford to pay their employees a living wage then those businesses do not serve a societal function except to serve the rent-seeking libertarian modernday slavemaster who as a small business owner is making record profits in 2021 and still paying their workers so poorly that they require food stamps and medicaid.

Perhaps that business should close down so another well-intentioned business can take it's place. Look at Costco, they pay their employees fair and are making profits hand over fist. And they responsibly enforce masks in stores. It's possible, people!

Instead we have underpaid public school teachers who are largely Republican and there solely to promote capitalism and failing to teach students about economics. So we have stockholm syndrome where people making largely under $40k a year are somehow convinced raising the minimum wage will destroy the economy.

Public school started in the 1860s by Abraham Lincoln, the founder of the Democratic party, to teach freed slaves to read. And this system was co-opted in the 1900s as a way for Henry Ford to get enough workers for his assembly line to make cars (which have also led to record global warming levels and rising sea levels, but that's another story).

So Henry Ford wants workers trained to do repetitive tasks that require no critical thinking and show up to different stations at the sound of bells. Timed lunches. Permission to the bathroom. And so the Republicans and Capitalists stole the public schools and turned them into the right-wing brainwashing camps (with only 2 sets of bathrooms btw).

Meanwhile you have people currently making $15 an hour who are horrified that now everyone else will be making the same as them. As though they can't just go to their boss and say "pay me more or I'll leave to do an easier job that pays the same"... C-O-M-M-O-N S-E-N-C-E isn't so common anymore.

The rising tide raises all ships. Raise the living conditions of the lower class, they'll spend money into the ecomomy, stimulate it and everyone is better off. Give money to rich people and they'll just hoard the money into gold coins stashed around the country in various safe deposit boxes providing no value to society.
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:01 am

tomfoolery wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:49 pm
If businesses can't afford to pay their employees a living wage then those businesses do not serve a societal function except to serve the rent-seeking libertarian modernday slavemaster who as a small business owner is making record profits in 2021 and still paying their workers so poorly that they require food stamps and medicaid.
I'm just trying to drink my coffee while extracting value from the benighted of the world, and this is the sort of abuse I have to put up with. You're on half rations for a week, tomfoolery. I hope you use the time to work on your attitude.
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:28 am

I'm not going to say $15/hr minimum is the answer. Should my 16 (oops 17) year old shagging carts at the grocery store be making $15? No.

But do you have an answer that combines smaller government, less welfare and a higher standard of living for those at the bottom who can't make ends meet for their families?

I know I don't have an answer.
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:36 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:28 am

But do you have an answer that combines smaller government, less welfare and a higher standard of living for those at the bottom who can't make ends meet for their families?
How about, don't have a family until you can afford it?
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by dualstow » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:41 am

ding ding ding. Give that man a doughnut to go with his coffee.
Feels like the end of the everything rally.
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by sophie » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:41 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:28 am
I know I don't have an answer.
The answer to what?

If you mean that anyone should be able to rent the median priced home in whatever county (e.g. Manhattan) they choose? That's one of the benchmarks I keep seeing. Sorry but if you're flipping burgers at McDonalds, you rent a cheap seat in the outer boroughs or Jersey City. You're not entitled to rent in a doorman building in Manhattan. This is the epitome of the Lake Wobegon syndrome: "All the children are above average." Exercise left to the reader to spot the logic flaw.

Entry level jobs are just that: entry level. If you can't rise past entry level, then you either scale back your expectations, or find extra work outside of the 30-40 hour standard. Or change jobs; housecleaners for example are paid quite well if they find their own clients instead of working for a cleaning service company. My dad used to say "The world doesn't owe you a living." That is just as true now as it ever was.
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by vnatale » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:47 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:36 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:28 am


But do you have an answer that combines smaller government, less welfare and a higher standard of living for those at the bottom who can't make ends meet for their families?



How about, don't have a family until you can afford it?


That is usually my first thought...
Last edited by vnatale on Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:48 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:36 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:28 am

But do you have an answer that combines smaller government, less welfare and a higher standard of living for those at the bottom who can't make ends meet for their families?
How about, don't have a family until you can afford it?
Sure. That would probably help some. Obviously wouldn't go over well, but it is an idea.

Back to single, unskilled workers, say a busboy in a Chicago restaurant. Making federal min wage of $7.25/hr. $15,080 gross per year. Is that livable in Chicago? With food, rent, utilities, phone, and possibly car expenses? Would seem to be cutting it close. I live frugally, I am pretty sure I could make it work, I think. But there would be zero buffer.

And I would add, my Dad worked, my mom stayed home. He supported two kids through college and in-laws living in the house.

I am able to also have my wife stay at home.

Out of all the friends I can think of, there are but a very small number who can do the same anymore. Both parents work out of necessity.

Maybe it's because they spend a lot, I don't know. But you can't deny that the ability to raise a family on one income has gone down over the decades.

Or maybe you can if you want to start an argument!

**Sorry this has gone off the rails from minimum wage. I agree that $15 is not advisable for all cases**

I'm just trying to look at the bigger picture that something has happened over the past 20/30/40 years that has made what used to be a typical family structure very difficult for many, but that's a different topic.
Last edited by Cortopassi on Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by vnatale » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:52 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:48 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:36 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:28 am


But do you have an answer that combines smaller government, less welfare and a higher standard of living for those at the bottom who can't make ends meet for their families?



How about, don't have a family until you can afford it?


Sure. That would probably help some. Obviously wouldn't go over well, but it is an idea.

Back to single, unskilled workers, say a busboy in a Chicago restaurant. Making federal min wage of $7.25/hr. $15,080 gross per year. Is that livable in Chicago? With food, rent, utilities, phone, and possibly car expenses? Would seem to be cutting it close. I live frugally, I am pretty sure I could make it work, I think. But there would be zero buffer.


I lived with other people (33 different ones over a four year period in one house (about 900 square feet). I never had any thoughts that I'd be able to afford living on my own during that time or that I was entitled to do so. I first did it at 26 years old when I moved into a small, inexpensive trailer. Prior to then it was living as frugally as possible and putting up with living with a lot of different people for the prior 7 years.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by Xan » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:14 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:48 am
Back to single, unskilled workers, say a busboy in a Chicago restaurant. Making federal min wage of $7.25/hr. $15,080 gross per year. Is that livable in Chicago? With food, rent, utilities, phone, and possibly car expenses? Would seem to be cutting it close. I live frugally, I am pretty sure I could make it work, I think. But there would be zero buffer.
If $7.25 doesn't work for being a busboy in Chicago, then busboys in Chicago will be paid more. Restaurants need busboys, and if nobody is willing to do it for $7.25, then restaurants will pay more than that.

Meanwhile, for the equivalent busboy living in Helena, $7.25 is perfectly satisfactory.

Why do we need a federal law mandating that they both be paid $15?
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by tomfoolery » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:16 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:36 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:28 am

But do you have an answer that combines smaller government, less welfare and a higher standard of living for those at the bottom who can't make ends meet for their families?
How about, don't have a family until you can afford it?
Mr Levvy, you have hit on the point of underpaying the working class. It’s no longer politically and socially acceptable to institute forced sterilization of the peasants so we economically shackle them to prevent them affording a family and making it think it’s their own idea to not have kids. When really it’s the Donald Trumps and Jared Kushners of the world who want fewer brown children so they collude with other white business owners to suppress wages for the working class.

There’s a strong correlation between the rising wealth inequality gap and diminishing birth rates in non-whites. I didn’t want to be the first to point it out, but you’re smarter than the average bear, Mr. Levvy.
Last edited by tomfoolery on Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by vnatale » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:19 am

Xan wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:14 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:48 am
Back to single, unskilled workers, say a busboy in a Chicago restaurant. Making federal min wage of $7.25/hr. $15,080 gross per year. Is that livable in Chicago? With food, rent, utilities, phone, and possibly car expenses? Would seem to be cutting it close. I live frugally, I am pretty sure I could make it work, I think. But there would be zero buffer.


If $7.25 doesn't work for being a busboy in Chicago, then busboys in Chicago will be paid more. Restaurants need busboys, and if nobody is willing to do it for $7.25, then restaurants will pay more than that.

Meanwhile, for the equivalent busboy living in Helena, $7.25 is perfectly satisfactory.

Why do we need a federal law mandating that they both be paid $15?


We don't. Fits a given ideology that does not like to come up with targeted solutions but, instead, wants to govern by slogan. Both of the two major parties are guilty of this. And, anyone who says he or she belongs to either party gets this because it is what they demand of their politicians. If the politicians did not say these things or propose these things then they lose the support of their constituents and either not get elected in the first place or get re-elected. We get the government we deserve.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by tomfoolery » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:22 am

Xan wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:14 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:48 am
Back to single, unskilled workers, say a busboy in a Chicago restaurant. Making federal min wage of $7.25/hr. $15,080 gross per year. Is that livable in Chicago? With food, rent, utilities, phone, and possibly car expenses? Would seem to be cutting it close. I live frugally, I am pretty sure I could make it work, I think. But there would be zero buffer.
If $7.25 doesn't work for being a busboy in Chicago, then busboys in Chicago will be paid more. Restaurants need busboys, and if nobody is willing to do it for $7.25, then restaurants will pay more than that.

Meanwhile, for the equivalent busboy living in Helena, $7.25 is perfectly satisfactory.

Why do we need a federal law mandating that they both be paid $15?
Yeah but did you know women get paid 70 cents on the dollar as men?
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:15 am

Why is Congress being so cheap???
Set it at $30! That will really benefit all workers. I mean, there is no downside, so why the heck not?
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by vnatale » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:29 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:15 am

Why is Congress being so cheap???
Set it at $30! That will really benefit all workers. I mean, there is no downside, so why the heck not?


That is always another question that never really gets answered.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:56 am

I continue to wonder why this topic keeps resurfacing. Dr. Swift's solution to the problem of impoverished Irish families is no less applicable today. Also, low carb.
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by pp4me » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:06 pm

When person X says that person Y needs to pay person Z more money for his work I figure that person Y says WTF and person Z agrees with person X. As for person X, he has no skin in the game other than person Z's vote.
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by pugchief » Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:47 am

pp4me wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:06 pm
When person X says that person Y needs to pay person Z more money for his work I figure that person Y says WTF and person Z agrees with person X. As for person X, he has no skin in the game other than person Z's vote.
True. But person Y can vote against person X in the next election and cancel out person Z's vote. As a small business owner, this is exactly why, like TomFoolery, I now only vote for Democrats.
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by sophie » Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:03 am

pugchief wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 6:47 am
pp4me wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:06 pm
When person X says that person Y needs to pay person Z more money for his work I figure that person Y says WTF and person Z agrees with person X. As for person X, he has no skin in the game other than person Z's vote.
True. But person Y can vote against person X in the next election and cancel out person Z's vote. As a small business owner, this is exactly why, like TomFoolery, I now only vote for Democrats.
I think the theory is that for every person Y, there are several person Z's.

The flip side of the Chicago busboy example is berry pickers in California. The berry companies want to hire people at $5-$10 per hour, but there are not enough Americans willing to take the job. So, they hire illegal immigrants or have the government import temporary immigrant labor. What's the problem here? Simple - the berry farms aren't offering high enough wages. The government in this instance is responding with measures designed to keep those wages low. Since the berry farms know that the government will do this, they don't need to increase wages, which in turn would increase berry prices.

Which kind of makes the minimum wage proposal even more laughable, since the same people support both actions simultaneously.

Note also that in order to pay less for raspberries at the store, you're paying higher state & local taxes because those low-cost laborers get public benefits that you must pay for. No one is saving any money by holding those wages down. More likely it is a net loss to the average taxpayer.
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:22 am

With just two incredibly difficult technologies, we solve all our problems. The first is going to happen within 50 years. The second, I don't know, but with the first available, it might not be far behind.

--Unlimited clean energy. One day we humans will absolutely figure out fusion. That will be the end of our energy issues, greenhouse gases, etc. It will certainly be totally disruptive and destroy industries and cause wars but we have to get there.

--With that, some form of replicator technology that uses this unlimited energy to create materials and food.

Homelessness, hunger, thirst, and all basic living concerns will disappear. The only one left will be what to do with millions or billions of people who now literally have nothing to do. That one will be tough. Maybe you plug them all into a Matrix... or start building starships and colonizing/terraforming Mars.

O0
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by Mark Leavy » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:12 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:22 am
--Unlimited clean energy. One day we humans will absolutely figure out fusion. That will be the end of our energy issues, greenhouse gases, etc. It will certainly be totally disruptive and destroy industries and cause wars but we have to get there.
--With that, some form of replicator technology that uses this unlimited energy to create materials and food.

You might enjoy reading the Diamond Age. It's Neil Stephenson's take on your prediction.

The Diamond Age: Or, A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer
The Diamond Age depicts a near-future world revolutionised by advances in nanotechnology, much as Eric Drexler envisioned it in his 1986 nonfiction book Engines of Creation. Molecular nanotechnology is omnipresent in the novel's world, generally in the form of Matter Compilers and the products that come out of them.
Matter compilers receive their raw materials from the Feed, a system analogous to the electrical grid of modern society. The Feed carries streams of both energy and basic molecules, which are rapidly assembled into usable goods by matter compilers.
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by sophie » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:23 am

Ah, I have the diagnosis: Star Trek Syndrome. Cortopassi you've been watching a lot of STNG reruns lately, admit it!

Maybe it will turn out the way you predict, in a few hundred years. You have to admit they were spot on with the cell phone prediction, except that one was copied from Get Smart. Maybe they could lay claim to auto opening doors.
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:27 am

sophie wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:23 am
Ah, I have the diagnosis: Star Trek Syndrome. Cortopassi you've been watching a lot of STNG reruns lately, admit it!

Maybe it will turn out the way you predict, in a few hundred years. You have to admit they were spot on with the cell phone prediction, except that one was copied from Get Smart. Maybe they could lay claim to auto opening doors.
I always fall back on sci-fi TV when I have nothing else to do. For many years it was Trek, esp. DS9. After that I really got into Stargate. Recently, The Expanse was pretty good. I have not been that crazy about the Picard series though. But it was nice to see some of the old cast.
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by tomfoolery » Wed Feb 24, 2021 10:01 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:22 am

--Unlimited clean energy. One day we humans will absolutely figure out fusion. That will be the end of our energy issues, greenhouse gases, etc. It will certainly be totally disruptive and destroy industries and cause wars but we have to get there.

Yes but the Carbon Fuel industrial complex doesn’t want that to happen! Which is why we need to institute a carbon tax before we all die of global warming. Whoever hasn’t died from covid, that is.

Oil companies should be begging to pay a carbon tax because then they won’t be demonized. There’s few win-wins in politics but a carbon tax is one of them. Yet somehow, even though he was voted out, Donald Trump is preventing a carbon tax. I can’t explain it really but I do blame him.
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Re: Minimum Living Wage

Post by pugchief » Wed Feb 24, 2021 11:55 am

sophie wrote:
Wed Feb 24, 2021 9:23 am
Ah, I have the diagnosis: Star Trek Syndrome. Cortopassi you've been watching a lot of STNG reruns lately, admit it!

Maybe it will turn out the way you predict, in a few hundred years. You have to admit they were spot on with the cell phone prediction, except that one was copied from Get Smart. Maybe they could lay claim to auto opening doors.
No, Get Smart had that one, too. Remember the opening credits had him walking thru a series of doors, all of which opened automatically.
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