COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by jalanlong » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:27 am

Not trying to make a political point but I do find it fascinating how Covid has exposed a lot of collectivist tendencies in a country that is supposedly so individualist. The slogans are everywhere..."We are in this together" or "Stronger Together." Even my son's elementary school tshirts this year have a "Better Together" on them that doesn't really seem necessary.
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by SomeDude » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:01 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:44 pm
Just looking at a few US states, it looks like COVID is falling off a cliff over the past two weeks.
Yes?
All it required was some election "irregularities".
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by SomeDude » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:02 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:44 pm
Just looking at a few US states, it looks like COVID is falling off a cliff over the past two weeks.
Yes?
Has it been met with an equal increase in the flu? :o
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:10 am

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:02 am
I Shrugged wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:44 pm
Just looking at a few US states, it looks like COVID is falling off a cliff over the past two weeks.
Yes?
Has it been met with an equal increase in the flu? :o
By last summer I figured there wouldn’t be much flu because of the COVID precautions. I know you don’t want to believe that, but I do.
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by glennds » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:24 am

jalanlong wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:27 am
Not trying to make a political point but I do find it fascinating how Covid has exposed a lot of collectivist tendencies in a country that is supposedly so individualist. The slogans are everywhere..."We are in this together" or "Stronger Together." Even my son's elementary school tshirts this year have a "Better Together" on them that doesn't really seem necessary.
Just out of curiosity, do you feel (what you call) collectivist tendencies are ever appropriate?

For example, there were a lot of similar slogans after 9/11, and FDR famously promoted the same after the Great Depression. The WWII "we are in this together" was so extensive in popular culture that there is a collectible memorabilia market for it.
What do you think of these "stronger together, we are one" type examples?
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by jalanlong » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:27 am

https://nypost.com/2021/02/19/white-hou ... i-vaxxers/

"The White House is asking social media companies to clamp down on chatter that deviates from officially distributed COVID-19 information as part of President Biden’s “wartime effort” to vanquish the coronavirus.

A senior administration official tells Reuters that the Biden administration is asking Facebook, Twitter and Google to help prevent anti-vaccine fears from going viral, as distrust of the inoculations emerges as a major barrier in the fight against the deadly virus."
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by Tortoise » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:31 am

I'm sure they really have to twist Big Tech's arm to cooperate on that. ::)
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by vnatale » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:36 am

jalanlong wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:27 am

https://nypost.com/2021/02/19/white-hou ... i-vaxxers/

"The White House is asking social media companies to clamp down on chatter that deviates from officially distributed COVID-19 information as part of President Biden’s “wartime effort” to vanquish the coronavirus.

A senior administration official tells Reuters that the Biden administration is asking Facebook, Twitter and Google to help prevent anti-vaccine fears from going viral, as distrust of the inoculations emerges as a major barrier in the fight against the deadly virus."


Would that be any different than asking them to be doing the same regarding the Anti-Vaccers?

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/anti-vaxxer

Should we want the anit-vaccer position to be promoted? To be given as full rein as possible?
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by jalanlong » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:40 am

glennds wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:24 am
jalanlong wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:27 am
Not trying to make a political point but I do find it fascinating how Covid has exposed a lot of collectivist tendencies in a country that is supposedly so individualist. The slogans are everywhere..."We are in this together" or "Stronger Together." Even my son's elementary school tshirts this year have a "Better Together" on them that doesn't really seem necessary.
Just out of curiosity, do you feel (what you call) collectivist tendencies are ever appropriate?

For example, there were a lot of similar slogans after 9/11, and FDR famously promoted the same after the Great Depression. The WWII "we are in this together" was so extensive in popular culture that there is a collectible memorabilia market for it.
What do you think of these "stronger together, we are one" type examples?
To me the problem with slogans such as "we are all in this together" is that they imply that we have all sacrificed something for the cause. And that is not always the case. I personally have not lost a job due to Covid. However, if I had, I would be incredibly insulted that a Congressperson, Governor or City Health Official who has not lost one paycheck, is randomly giving directives that kills my job and then has the audacity to make me feel better by saying that we are all in it together. My general opinion is those that create or utter those slogans the most are usually the ones who have sacrificed the least.
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by jalanlong » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:47 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:36 am
jalanlong wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:27 am
https://nypost.com/2021/02/19/white-hou ... i-vaxxers/

"The White House is asking social media companies to clamp down on chatter that deviates from officially distributed COVID-19 information as part of President Biden’s “wartime effort” to vanquish the coronavirus.

A senior administration official tells Reuters that the Biden administration is asking Facebook, Twitter and Google to help prevent anti-vaccine fears from going viral, as distrust of the inoculations emerges as a major barrier in the fight against the deadly virus."
Would that be any different than asking them to be doing the same regarding the Anti-Vaccers?

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/anti-vaxxer

Should we want the anit-vaccer position to be promoted? To be given as full rein as possible?
I would never want a central government to be cajoling a news outlet (however you define that) to skew the news towards the party line. We often laugh at how North Korean news outlets report on the miraculous feats of its glorious leader and wonder how the public could possibly believe such things and how obvious is it that this is government sponsored propaganda. How is this any better? Because it is about public health?
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by tomfoolery » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:54 am

glennds wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:24 am
Just out of curiosity, do you feel (what you call) collectivist tendencies are ever appropriate?

For example, there were a lot of similar slogans after 9/11, and FDR famously promoted the same after the Great Depression. The WWII "we are in this together" was so extensive in popular culture that there is a collectible memorabilia market for it.
What do you think of these "stronger together, we are one" type examples?
I think collectivist tendencies resulted in the greatest and most beneficial shifts to America since our founding.

The two examples mentioned here, the Great Depression and 9/11 resulted in the New Deal and the Patriot Act, two fantastic pieces of legislation that keep us safe economically and physically.

I hope COVID ushers in some more collectivism to keep us safe from future germs. Reasonable common sense things like mask wearing and business closures and travel bans and mandatory contract tracing.
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by Tortoise » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:00 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:10 am
By last summer I figured there wouldn’t be much flu because of the COVID precautions. I know you [SomeDude] don’t want to believe that, but I do.
If the Covid precautions worked so well for the flu, why didn't they also work for Covid?
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by Xan » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:08 pm

Zdogg addresses this question:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs4p-OG3RiE

Thanks to Mathjak for pointing me to this guy. He's pretty awesome.
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by mathjak107 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:21 pm

That is my go to expert..it is very interesting as far as this co virus stuff not being able to exist well together
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by glennds » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:28 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:40 am
glennds wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:24 am
jalanlong wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:27 am
Not trying to make a political point but I do find it fascinating how Covid has exposed a lot of collectivist tendencies in a country that is supposedly so individualist. The slogans are everywhere..."We are in this together" or "Stronger Together." Even my son's elementary school tshirts this year have a "Better Together" on them that doesn't really seem necessary.
Just out of curiosity, do you feel (what you call) collectivist tendencies are ever appropriate?

For example, there were a lot of similar slogans after 9/11, and FDR famously promoted the same after the Great Depression. The WWII "we are in this together" was so extensive in popular culture that there is a collectible memorabilia market for it.
What do you think of these "stronger together, we are one" type examples?
To me the problem with slogans such as "we are all in this together" is that they imply that we have all sacrificed something for the cause. And that is not always the case. I personally have not lost a job due to Covid. However, if I had, I would be incredibly insulted that a Congressperson, Governor or City Health Official who has not lost one paycheck, is randomly giving directives that kills my job and then has the audacity to make me feel better by saying that we are all in it together. My general opinion is those that create or utter those slogans the most are usually the ones who have sacrificed the least.
You make a valid point.

I find the broader subject interesting and have been reading up on Harry Browne's thoughts. On the one hand, he was clearly a believer in pure libertarianism i.e unfettered individualism.
On the other hand, he talks about the importance of social causes and charitable causes and their role in a stable society. It seems his key point is not that social causes deserve no attention, it is that government should not tasked with the role of addressing them.

My takeaway is that Harry Browne's individualism does not necessarily mean complete self interest (read selfishness) to the point of disregard for anyone else.
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by mathjak107 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:00 pm

Xan wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:08 pm
Zdogg addresses this question:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs4p-OG3RiE

Thanks to Mathjak for pointing me to this guy. He's pretty awesome.
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:29 pm

glennds wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:28 pm

My takeaway is that Harry Browne's individualism does not necessarily mean complete self interest (read selfishness) to the point of disregard for anyone else.
Harry often commented that different people have different utility functions that vary with their time horizons.

For someone with a very short time horizon, it makes sense to break a window and steal some shoes, as there is a clear immediate benefit. For someone that can imagine how it will affect his life in the long term, not so much.

I believe that Harry (selfishly) realized that his life would be better in the long term if societal issues were largely addressed. And that much more so if done in a non-coercive manner.
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by Tortoise » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:34 pm

Xan wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:08 pm
Zdogg addresses this question:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs4p-OG3RiE

Thanks to Mathjak for pointing me to this guy. He's pretty awesome.
mathjak107 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:21 pm
That is my go to expert..it is very interesting as far as this co virus stuff not being able to exist well together
Thanks, that was a pretty good video. Just so we're all aware, in that video Zdogg's theory about why the flu suddenly "disappeared" after Covid appeared isn't that it was because of Covid precautions (masks, distancing, etc.); he said it's because studies have shown that respiratory viral infections typically don't coexist very well. I.e., he's saying it's likely that the increase in Covid infections directly caused the decrease in flu infections.

I'm actually not yet convinced by Zdogg's coexistence argument since flu infections appeared to suddenly fall off a cliff, yet Covid didn't spread to the majority of the population right away. For example, almost a year passed before my wife and I (and several of my wife's family members) were infected with Covid. Given that fact, it would have made more sense to see flu infections decrease slowly over a number of months rather than suddenly fall off a cliff.

So I still think the theory that fits the observations better is that most cases that would have been diagnosed as the flu in previous years (based on symptoms, not viral tests since flu tests are not common) are now diagnosed as Covid. Not because of a conspiracy, but simply because everyone with flu-like symptoms is now given a Covid test, but almost never a flu test. Plus, a lot of Covid cases are "probable cases", meaning they're based only on symptoms rather than a viral test result. In many cases, those symptoms could be due to flu rather than Covid, but I don't think most doctors currently consider that possibility when making the diagnosis.

Unfortunately, Zdogg didn't even mention that as another possible explanation, despite it being a very simple and obvious one.
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by tomfoolery » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:12 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:29 pm
I believe that Harry (selfishly) realized that his life would be better in the long term if societal issues were largely addressed. And that much more so if done in a non-coercive manner.
Who said anything about coercion? Close the businesses for their own good. If everyone is dead then the business will fail anyway. No one is coercing anyone to do anything.

This isn't communist Norway where the government holds you at gunpoint and demands you use their socialized medicine.
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by SomeDude » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:58 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:00 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:10 am
By last summer I figured there wouldn’t be much flu because of the COVID precautions. I know you [SomeDude] don’t want to believe that, but I do.
If the Covid precautions worked so well for the flu, why didn't they also work for Covid?
Everyone at risk from the flu was already dead from Covid I guess. I must be the luckiest guy on Earth, i don't know a single person who has told me they know a single person who has died from it, or even gotten sick.

And i mean no offense to the people on the forum who've said they've lost friends or family. I just consider this the internet, and all that comes with that, and don't include people from the internet in my life experience.

Saying "i know a guy on the internet who goes by the handle KingKongAlBundy lost his great aunt from Covid" isn't really evidence of a pandemic.

If i went by what I've seen from my non internet life which includes tons of people in the medical industry and about 90 days in a hospital myself last year.....Covid looks like a total hoax still.
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by mathjak107 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:37 pm

Phew , we know so many who had it bad , my wife and I included as well as so many that died I couldn’t even remember every one .it is easier to name those that died that we know than those who had to go to the emergency room or be admitted

The tristate area was rampant
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by pp4me » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:13 pm

I also haven't met a single person who has even gotten COVID. A barber told me she had a friend who got it but didn't even pass it on to her family but that is actually the closest I've gotten to any real world contact with the virus - the rest is all on television or the internet.

I'm excluding the members of this forum just like I do famous people who got it because I'm talking about people I come into contact with face-to-face or at least one level removed.

With 500k deaths out of 330 million people, mostly affecting the elderly, that probably isn't surprising.
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by SomeDude » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:45 pm

pp4me wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:13 pm
I also haven't met a single person who has even gotten COVID. A barber told me she had a friend who got it but didn't even pass it on to her family but that is actually the closest I've gotten to any real world contact with the virus - the rest is all on television or the internet.

I'm excluding the members of this forum just like I do famous people who got it because I'm talking about people I come into contact with face-to-face or at least one level removed.

With 500k deaths out of 330 million people, mostly affecting the elderly, that probably isn't surprising.
You're in Pinellas right PP? So am I. North st. Pete lil west of 19.
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by pp4me » Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:46 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:45 pm
pp4me wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:13 pm
I also haven't met a single person who has even gotten COVID. A barber told me she had a friend who got it but didn't even pass it on to her family but that is actually the closest I've gotten to any real world contact with the virus - the rest is all on television or the internet.

I'm excluding the members of this forum just like I do famous people who got it because I'm talking about people I come into contact with face-to-face or at least one level removed.

With 500k deaths out of 330 million people, mostly affecting the elderly, that probably isn't surprising.
You're in Pinellas right PP? So am I. North st. Pete lil west of 19.
Yes I am. Hi neighbor. I live in Oldsmar.
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Re: COVID Cases Sharply Declining: Why This Is Worst Case Scenario

Post by SomeDude » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:06 pm

pp4me wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:46 pm
SomeDude wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:45 pm
pp4me wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 5:13 pm
I also haven't met a single person who has even gotten COVID. A barber told me she had a friend who got it but didn't even pass it on to her family but that is actually the closest I've gotten to any real world contact with the virus - the rest is all on television or the internet.

I'm excluding the members of this forum just like I do famous people who got it because I'm talking about people I come into contact with face-to-face or at least one level removed.

With 500k deaths out of 330 million people, mostly affecting the elderly, that probably isn't surprising.
You're in Pinellas right PP? So am I. North st. Pete lil west of 19.
Yes I am. Hi neighbor. I live in Oldsmar.
Cool. I've lived in Clearwater, Dunedin, Crystal Beach and Seminole. Played a lot of tennis in oldsmar.

Supposedly we've had 1,500 covid-related deaths in our county of 1M which is right in line with the rest of the country. We do have an older pop though with about double the national average of folks over 65. I'm guess that's nearly all the deaths and they mostly all had co-morbidities.

For me Covid is something on TV or the internet that for some reason people wear masks now and bars close early. I've gone back to the office and take my mask off at my desk, even though we work in a big open floor.
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