Pulling My Leg - English Language Usage thread

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Pulling My Leg - English Language Usage thread

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:03 pm

< This was split from the coronavirus thread - DS >
vnatale wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:10 pm
Always distressing to see a professional writer use cliches rather than using more descriptive words such as:
"retreated from" or "distanced themselves from" or "reversed themselves".
Anyone else, Vinny, and I'd think they were joking ;D
I need more description to understand how and in what way they actually "walked it back".

Vinny
The Persuasion article she hyperlinks to from Mounk describes the back-walking. Her article is about the woke decision.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by vnatale » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:16 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:03 pm
vnatale wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:10 pm
Always distressing to see a professional writer use cliches rather than using more descriptive words such as:
"retreated from" or "distanced themselves from" or "reversed themselves".
:o
I need more description to understand how and in what way they actually "walked it back".

Vinny
The Persuasion article she hyperlinks to from Mounk describes the back-walking. Her article is about the woke decision.
My main point was that it appalls me to read a professional writer using these same pet phrases that too many people adopt when far more descriptive words can be used rather the pet phrases (which are always annoying to me and I give you full permission to call me out whenever I use one of them. My goal is to never use one of them).

Vinny
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mark Leavy » Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:25 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:16 pm

My main point was that it appalls me to read a professional writer using these same pet phrases that too many people adopt when far more descriptive words can be used rather the pet phrases (which are always annoying to me and I give you full permission to call me out whenever I use one of them. My goal is to never use one of them).

Vinny
It is true that journalists are paid to write, and in that sense, they are professional writers.
Your mistake, though, was in inferring that professional writer implies a competent and professional use of language.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Tortoise » Mon Dec 28, 2020 9:37 pm

“Walking something back” is just an example of a metaphor.

I recall that the use of metaphors is discouraged in Strunk and White, but sometimes they do help to drive a point home (to use another metaphor).

As in most things, I suspect a balance is best. No need to eschew metaphors entirely, but just don’t use them excessively. And definitely don’t mix them, for God’s sake. :)
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by dualstow » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:45 am

vnatale wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:16 pm
My main point was that it appalls me to read a professional writer using these same pet phrases that too many people adopt when far more descriptive words can be used rather the pet phrases (which are always annoying to me and I give you full permission to call me out whenever I use one of them. My goal is to never use one of them).

Vinny
What is this “call me out” you speak of? Are you asking people to invite you on a date? That can’t be what you mean. I get confused by phrasal verbs.

Moreover, I thought a pet phrase was “the place where Fido frolics.”

No, seriously, Vinny, this is an absurd request. “Walked it back” is a nice phrase, in addition to being crystal cl- er, apparent in meaning. Metaphors are a part of writing. Maybe someone out there publishes a Technical Manual version of Romeo and Juliet next to the Korean version, but you can’t ask the entire world to change for your convenience. Practice learning these “pet phrases” and maybe you will come to like them.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:47 am

dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:45 am
vnatale wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:16 pm
My main point was that it appalls me to read a professional writer using these same pet phrases that too many people adopt when far more descriptive words can be used rather the pet phrases (which are always annoying to me and I give you full permission to call me out whenever I use one of them. My goal is to never use one of them).

Vinny
What is this “call me out” you speak of? Are you asking people to invite you on a date? That can’t be what you mean. I get confused by phrasal verbs.

Moreover, I thought a pet phrase was “the place where Fido frolics.”

No, seriously, Vinny, this is an absurd request. “Walked it back” is a nice phrase, in addition to being crystal cl- er, apparent in meaning. Metaphors are a part of writing. Maybe someone out there publishes a Technical Manual version of Romeo and Juliet next to the Korean version, but you can’t ask the entire world to change for your convenience. Practice learning these “pet phrases” and maybe you will come to like them.
Here are some excellent rules for writing:
https://www.writerswrite.co.za/william- ... f-grammar/
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by dualstow » Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:58 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:47 am
Here are some excellent rules for writing:
https://www.writerswrite.co.za/william- ... f-grammar/
#33 - he agrees with Vinny!
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by vnatale » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:23 am

dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:45 am
vnatale wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:16 pm
My main point was that it appalls me to read a professional writer using these same pet phrases that too many people adopt when far more descriptive words can be used rather the pet phrases (which are always annoying to me and I give you full permission to call me out whenever I use one of them. My goal is to never use one of them).

Vinny
What is this “call me out” you speak of? Are you asking people to invite you on a date? That can’t be what you mean. I get confused by phrasal verbs.

Moreover, I thought a pet phrase was “the place where Fido frolics.”

No, seriously, Vinny, this is an absurd request. “Walked it back” is a nice phrase, in addition to being crystal cl- er, apparent in meaning. Metaphors are a part of writing. Maybe someone out there publishes a Technical Manual version of Romeo and Juliet next to the Korean version, but you can’t ask the entire world to change for your convenience. Practice learning these “pet phrases” and maybe you will come to like them.
For me that phrase fits right in with all that these three articles advocate eliminating. Do you disagree with these articles?

https://www.straightnorth.com/company/m ... gon-fixes/

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/14/avoid-t ... isely.html

https://www.inc.com/peter-economy/an-a- ... using.html

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by vnatale » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:25 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:47 am
dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:45 am
vnatale wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:16 pm
My main point was that it appalls me to read a professional writer using these same pet phrases that too many people adopt when far more descriptive words can be used rather the pet phrases (which are always annoying to me and I give you full permission to call me out whenever I use one of them. My goal is to never use one of them).

Vinny
What is this “call me out” you speak of? Are you asking people to invite you on a date? That can’t be what you mean. I get confused by phrasal verbs.

Moreover, I thought a pet phrase was “the place where Fido frolics.”

No, seriously, Vinny, this is an absurd request. “Walked it back” is a nice phrase, in addition to being crystal cl- er, apparent in meaning. Metaphors are a part of writing. Maybe someone out there publishes a Technical Manual version of Romeo and Juliet next to the Korean version, but you can’t ask the entire world to change for your convenience. Practice learning these “pet phrases” and maybe you will come to like them.
Here are some excellent rules for writing:
https://www.writerswrite.co.za/william- ... f-grammar/
Good list! Thank you!

This past summer I read one of his books on writing (I think!).

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by vnatale » Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:25 am

dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:58 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 8:47 am
Here are some excellent rules for writing:
https://www.writerswrite.co.za/william- ... f-grammar/
#33 - he agrees with Vinny!
Since he is the ultimate professional writer of reknown...it is more a case of me agreeing with him!

Vinny
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by dualstow » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:09 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:23 am
For me that phrase fits right in with all that these three articles advocate eliminating. Do you disagree with these articles?

https://www.straightnorth.com/company/m ... gon-fixes/

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/14/avoid-t ... isely.html

https://www.inc.com/peter-economy/an-a- ... using.html
I’m looking at the middle link now with mixed feelings. In general, I hate buzzwords, but I use them myself and I wouldn’t dream of trying to stop the tidal wave of usage in others.
I think it’s obnoxious to use ‘curate’, but my friends use it sometimes. I hate ‘double down’, but it’s here to stay.

I like “low hanging fruit” and “reach out” and won’t stop using them once in a while.

In general, I focus on someone simply using the wrong word, like “i am adverse to...” instead of averse to. And even then, language is not something to be lorded over someone else. I understand that it may look like I’m doing that, too, but that’s not my intent. I like language. And there are people on social media saying you should never correct someone’s grammar. (Followed by a flood of second language learners saying they *want* to be corrected). That’s silly. You can correct without ignoring someone’s main, non-grammatical point.

There’s also this fuzzy phenomenon in which the wrong word becomes the right word because enough people fuck it up. Little by little, “literally” is losing its literal meaning. (And in fact, in historical usage, it didn’t always mean literally). It’s now softened by generation Z to something like “really”, which I guess used to literally mean really!

But other than writing directly to the journalist who’s getting under yours sk- who’s bugg- who’s vexing you, Vinny, I don’t think you have much recourse. When someone uses slang, metaphors, jargon, or a buzzword, you and i are both going to have to suck it u- tolerate it.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by dualstow » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:14 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:25 am
Libertarian666 wrote: Here are some excellent rules for writing:
https://www.writerswrite.co.za/william- ... f-grammar/
Good list! Thank you!
...
Did you really read it?
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:52 am

dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:09 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:23 am
For me that phrase fits right in with all that these three articles advocate eliminating. Do you disagree with these articles?

https://www.straightnorth.com/company/m ... gon-fixes/

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/14/avoid-t ... isely.html

https://www.inc.com/peter-economy/an-a- ... using.html
I’m looking at the middle link now with mixed feelings. In general, I hate buzzwords, but I use them myself and I wouldn’t dream of trying to stop the tidal wave of usage in others.
I think it’s obnoxious to use ‘curate’, but my friends use it sometimes. I hate ‘double down’, but it’s here to stay.

I like “low hanging fruit” and “reach out” and won’t stop using them once in a while.

In general, I focus on someone simply using the wrong word, like “i am adverse to...” instead of averse to. And even then, language is not something to be lorded over someone else. I understand that it may look like I’m doing that, too, but that’s not my intent. I like language. And there are people on social media saying you should never correct someone’s grammar. (Followed by a flood of second language learners saying they *want* to be corrected). That’s silly. You can correct without ignoring someone’s main, non-grammatical point.

There’s also this fuzzy phenomenon in which the wrong word becomes the right word because enough people fuck it up. Little by little, “literally” is losing its literal meaning. (And in fact, in historical usage, it didn’t always mean literally). It’s now softened by generation Z to something like “really”, which I guess used to literally mean really!

But other than writing directly to the journalist who’s getting under yours sk- who’s bugg- who’s vexing you, Vinny, I don’t think you have much recourse. When someone uses slang, metaphors, jargon, or a buzzword, you and i are both going to have to suck it u- tolerate it.
Tight man, really tight! I think you two are going tits up. ;)
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by vnatale » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:02 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:14 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 9:25 am
Libertarian666 wrote: Here are some excellent rules for writing:
https://www.writerswrite.co.za/william- ... f-grammar/
Good list! Thank you!
...
Did you really read it?
Quickly skimmed it. But I do believe I'd already read an entire book by him on better writing.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Pulling My Leg - English Language Usage thread

Post by dualstow » Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:01 pm

I asked because it itself is a joke.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
🚧 JAN 2021 moving more posts here 🚧
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Re: English

Post by vnatale » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:06 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:47 am

On topic, I promise

https://www.etymonline.com/columns/post ... atic-words


Last week I learned of this book.

https://www.amazon.com/Dreyers-English- ... ag=mh0b-20

Dreyer's English: An Utterly Correct Guide to Clarity and Style


It sufficiently motivated me to exceed my soft limit on how much to pay for a book (about $8.00, preferably less)...by telling myself that it'd be a reference book that I'd study. Books like that are automatically exempted from the limit.

I did buy it and went through it all, sending excerpts to a friend who has written about seven or more books.
He has another one coming out. I offered to be one of his editors and he accepted.

Therefore, reading the book may put on the path of embarking upon the path of yet another avocation: book editing. I'd not be one of those big picture editors. My primary focus would be on detail; correct spelling, punctuation, grammar, consistency - something said one place agrees with the same thing 30 pages later.

I have no desire to get paid for any of that work. Getting paid $$$$ brings with it pressures and expectations, reducing the enjoyment from the activity. Same reason why I've refused to take $$$$ for taking pictures.


Getting back to what you had above.....my fruitless campaign has been to rid of the world of the misuse of the phrases: "a little" and, even worse, "a little bit".

Start paying attention to how many times you hear people using those phrase. It is almost always verbal. Rarely written.

Think about what they really mean. "A little" means "not significant". "A little bit" means "barely perceptible".

Instead, I almost always hear them being using to describe what is clearly significant or clearly perceptible or both.

The only motivation I can ascribe to people who consistently misuse these two phrases is some kind of fear of truly describing the reality with accurate words instead of using these phrase which minimize the reality.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: English

Post by dualstow » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:12 pm

A bet that's a good book.
I don't really see you as an editor, Vinny. That is a really hard job to do right. I can see you hiring an editor for your memoirs.
Think about what they really mean. "A little" means "not significant". "A little bit" means "barely perceptible".
See, I don't agree with either of these definitions. It depends on the context and the speaker.
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Re: English

Post by vnatale » Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:23 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:12 pm

A bet that's a good book.
I don't really see you as an editor, Vinny. That is a really hard job to do right. I can see you hiring an editor for your memoirs.

Just because I'm not a skilled writer does not mean I cannot improve what others write.

That same person gave me a one page business thing he'd created for future buyers of his business's services. I went through it in extreme detail, fixing a lot that was wrong with it. He is a college English major, a writer of many books, and a highly skilled writer. Just does not give anywhere near close to the attention to detail that I do.

Think about what they really mean. "A little" means "not significant". "A little bit" means "barely perceptible".

See, I don't agree with either of these definitions. It depends on the context and the speaker.


Give me some alternative definitions to fit what you mean with context.

I think you do hear a lot of the spoken word? If so, listen for these phrases. Tell me the first time you agree that either was used correctly. I almost unfailingly hear them used incorrectly. Big-time in any kind of interviews related to sports. Like last year a pitcher's ERA was 3.5 and this year it is 5.5. His performance will be described as being "a little" off from the prior year when clearly it was big-time significantly off.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: English

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:55 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:23 pm
dualstow wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:12 pm
A bet that's a good book.
I don't really see you as an editor, Vinny. That is a really hard job to do right. I can see you hiring an editor for your memoirs.

Just because I'm not a skilled writer does not mean I cannot improve what others write.

That same person gave me a one page business thing he'd created for future buyers of his business's services. I went through it in extreme detail, fixing a lot that was wrong with it. He is a college English major, a writer of many books, and a highly skilled writer. Just does not give anywhere near close to the attention to detail that I do.
Think about what they really mean. "A little" means "not significant". "A little bit" means "barely perceptible".
See, I don't agree with either of these definitions. It depends on the context and the speaker.
Give me some alternative definitions to fit what you mean with context.

I think you do hear a lot of the spoken word? If so, listen for these phrases. Tell me the first time you agree that either was used correctly. I almost unfailingly hear them used incorrectly. Big-time in any kind of interviews related to sports. Like last year a pitcher's ERA was 3.5 and this year it is 5.5. His performance will be described as being "a little" off from the prior year when clearly it was big-time significantly off.
I am appalled at your use of “big-time” with “significantly” if you do not approve of “little bit” (is that 8 times worse than “little byte”?). Just kidding. 😉😉
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Re: English

Post by Tortoise » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:06 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:55 pm
I am appalled at your use of “big-time”...
Personally, I prefer the word “bigly”. ;)
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Re: English

Post by vnatale » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:29 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:55 pm



I am appalled at your use of “big-time” with “significantly” if you do not approve of “little bit” (is that 8 times worse than “little byte”?). Just kidding. 😉😉


Good one!

In freshman year of college I just could not grasp the concept of bits and bytes. Totally sunk me in that computer science course. I was willing to take an F in the course to no longer be frustrated with it. Kent State and the unique choices it brought to us students allowed me to later drop it without penalties.

It took a full 30 years later until I fully understood bits and bytes. Well understood. On my way to becoming A+ Certified.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: English

Post by dualstow » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:29 pm

I should probably move these over to the English thread. I'll do that in a little bit.

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vnatale wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:23 pm
I think you do hear a lot of the spoken word?
Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:55 pm
I am appalled at your use of “big-time” with “significantly” if you do not approve of “little bit” (is that 8 times worse than “little byte”?). Just kidding. 😉😉
^This^

I want you to read what I'm writing as just pointing things out matter-of-factly and not nitpicking, but posting about language usage is almost nitpicky by definition.

Mountaineer's joking, but that's a perfect example of how selective you are. By your own standards, which show a very low tolerance for colloquialisms or idiomatic language, your own posts are rife with "errors." They're not really errors, but if little bit is not kosher, then big-time should also run afoul of your blue pencil.

It's a bizarre combination, Vinny.
My mother does a lot of the same. I love my Mom, but she makes mistakes here and there, and then hones in on what she thinks is incorrect English, but which is actually just usage that she's not used to.
It's disconcerting. A little disconcerting. O0
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Re: The Left is eating itself

Post by vnatale » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:41 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:29 pm

I should probably move these over to the English thread. I'll do that in a little bit.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
vnatale wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 12:23 pm

I think you do hear a lot of the spoken word?


Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:55 pm

I am appalled at your use of “big-time” with “significantly” if you do not approve of “little bit” (is that 8 times worse than “little byte”?). Just kidding. 😉😉


^This^

I want you to read what I'm writing as just pointing things out matter-of-factly and not nitpicking, but posting about language usage is almost nitpicky by definition.

Mountaineer's joking, but that's a perfect example of how selective you are. By your own standards, which show a very low tolerance for colloquialisms or idiomatic language, your own posts are rife with "errors." They're not really errors, but if little bit is not kosher, then big-time should also run afoul of your blue pencil.

It's a bizarre combination, Vinny.
My mother does a lot of the same. I love my Mom, but she makes mistakes here and there, and then hones in on what she thinks is incorrect English, but which is actually just usage that she's not used to.
It's disconcerting. A little disconcerting. O0


I believe in being fair.

I'll point out what I see as incorrect.

I'm not exempt.

I'm completely fair game for you and anyone else believing that I'm doing the same as I'm accusing others of doing.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Pulling My Leg - English Language Usage thread

Post by dualstow » Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:46 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:41 pm
I'm completely fair game for you and anyone else believing that I'm doing the same as I'm accusing others of doing.
I don't have a problem with colloquialisms like big-time, nor with "a little (bit)", which I probably use daily.
You see why big-time falls under the same category, right?
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Re: English

Post by pp4me » Sat Jan 16, 2021 4:42 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 2:06 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Jan 16, 2021 1:55 pm
I am appalled at your use of “big-time”...
Personally, I prefer the word “bigly”. ;)
You must have been reading Scott Adams. Me too. Just finished "Loser Think" and getting ready to start "How to fail at almost everything and still win big". Both free at the library.
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