How Do You Balance Work And Leisure?

[vnatale]

I'd heard of them but not seen many. From website looks like they are making a comeback.

Nothing wrong with anti minimalism if it's useful stuff. I just can't stand tztochkies and knickknacks. If I ever get a workshop I'll probably have it packed to the rafters with tools and junk.

I am what is known as a collector. I do not collect merely for the sake of collecting. It because i do use what is in the collections and then end up with huge collections of them.

Like listening to all the records and CDs I own. Reading all the books and comic books I own. Sometimes watching all the DVDs I own. Far less now that I have so much available online via both Netflix and Amazon Prime.

Tons of computers and related parts because I'm my own computer repair person and I'm so computer dependent and never want to be at a point where I don't have access to a working computer.

It's a whole mindset that drives one to own so much. There ARE others in this country similar to me. The thing I have over most of them is that I'm super organized. If anything can be put in any order - usually by alphabetical or chronological - then it is.

On the other hand I do not own or have in this house many things that most people do. Like a clothes dryer. A dish washer. Or, any furniture in my living room. Not much furniture in any room. I think the only things that might be considered furniture in this house would be this six foot table I'm using, the futon bed, a desk in the other bedroom?

Vinny

[doodle]

You should have been a dentist. I never worked a single Wednesday in 36 years of practice.

I remember years and years and years ago that used to be the practice for doctors. Is that still the same for doctors?

I never realized that was also the case for dentists. Is that the case for all dentists? What did you do with your Wednesdays? Could you have worked on Wednesday if you chose to? I assume so, that is was not against the law? Did it cause you to work more hours each day the rest of the week to make up for work not done on those Wednesdays?

Vinny

There was a small bakery I used to mountain bike past after school growing up as a boy. Every day I would pass it at 3:12pm, and every day they'd be closed! Why would a bakery be closed by 3:12pm? Was there some kind of restriction in their business license against being open that late? Doubtful, it's a bakery, not a liquor store.

Years past, as I went from my Freshman year to Senior year and still, every day at 3:12pm, the bakery would be closed. I began to learn more about business, becoming a member of the school's entrepeurial club. I learned about a "certificate of occupancy" which is a part of a business license that requires a certain amount of parking spaces be available to customers. So that you can't open a business unless there's X number of spots depending on how many customers a business of your square footage and type would be expected to have at one time.

I wondered if perhaps the reason, every day at 3:12 this bakery was closed was due to a restriction related to the certificate of occupancy because next door was a yoga studio that had classes all afternoon and evening. So perhaps these two businesses shared parking spaces and the bakery would need to close early to accommodate parking for the yoga studio.

I never found out.

-Tom

Perhaps, but every bakery job ad I've ever seen had start times around 4am. I don't know what the connection between early mornings and bread is but there must be one that motivates everyone in this profession to roll out of bed that early.

[vnatale]

Perhaps, but every bakery job ad I've ever seen had start times around 4am. I don't know what the connection between early mornings and bread is but there must be one that motivates everyone in this profession to roll out of bed that early.

There are just so many jobs I'd have never lasted long at due to either having to be subject to cold conditions or having to get up early or, worst yet, both!

I was so proud of myself for holding a job for about 15 months when I was 23 and 24 that was about a 45 minute ride each way from my house and in which I had to show up at 7:30 AM. I never missed a day of work at that job, always worked 56 hours a week to get the overtime, and was rarely late more than 5 minutes. I absolutely hated the job. I walked into the place every Monday asking myself will this be my last week because I'm going to lose my job because a. I was going to quit it due to my intense dislike of it b. I was going to get fired because of my attitude while on the job. c. I was going to get laid off because the factory was gong to get moved to Mexico.

I finally left the job to go back to school again, which then led to me getting two accounting degrees in three years. Now that I knew what I wanted to do in my life, I was super motivated.

Prior to that job I had been working at a super boring job as security in a book and record store at minimum wage. Seemed like it would be the perfect place for me but no one ever played rock music in the store. It was always the most boring jazz music. Quite annoying music to me!

This was at the height of the famed 1973 / 1974 recession. There were no 5 minute bike ride jobs to be had. Actually that job was for me! But prior to getting that job since I had no marketable job skills I was driving 45 minutes to apply for jobs to be one of those people inside a booth to take people's money for them to pump their own gas. This was prior to many people having credit cards and the pumps being able to take them. But i could not even get hired for that Job! During this time there were maybe ten jobs of any kind being advertised in the newspaper for the entire county.

Scary times for someone in his early 20s with no marketable job skills. Could definitely not be choosy. At least that job I hated paid 50% more then minimum wage and allowed me to start with a fair amount of savings once I decided to enter the quite inexpensive state university.

Vinny

[Xan]

Perhaps, but every bakery job ad I've ever seen had start times around 4am. I don't know what the connection between early mornings and bread is but there must be one that motivates everyone in this profession to roll out of bed that early.

The story I heard about the creation of the croissant was that French bakers in Vienna who were up really early baking heard the Turks trying to tunnel under the city walls and were able to sound the alarm and save the day. The croissant (crescent, after the Muslim symbol) was created to commemorate the occasion.

No idea whether it's actually true.

[doodle]

Perhaps, but every bakery job ad I've ever seen had start times around 4am. I don't know what the connection between early mornings and bread is but there must be one that motivates everyone in this profession to roll out of bed that early.

This was at the height of the famed 1973 / 1974 recession. There were no 5 minute bike ride jobs to be had. Actually that job was for me! But prior to getting that job since I had no marketable job skills I was driving 45 minutes to apply for jobs to be one of those people inside a booth to take people's money for them to pump their own gas. This was prior to many people having credit cards and the pumps being able to take them. But i could not even get hired for that Job! During this time there were maybe ten jobs of any kind being advertised in the newspaper for the entire county.

Scary times for someone in his early 20s with no marketable job skills. Could definitely not be choosy. At least that job I hated paid 50% more then minimum wage and allowed me to start with a fair amount of savings once I decided to enter the quite inexpensive state university.

Vinny

Well, that's the kind of situation that modern Monetary Theory attempts to address...an economy with a willing and able bodied workforce, plenty of natural resources, and skills and know how, unsatisfied demands....yet no jobs. Seems to be a monetary phenomenon....

[Cortopassi]

I've been on and off discussing with my employer to cut back to 4 days a week. 32 hours, still full time. I would be happy with a 20% paycut in exchange.

Timing is to do it starting this year. I have enough vacation that I took a lot of Wednesday's off this year, which was awsome.

I totally agree with the effort - and it stands a good chance of working. I tried that in my late twenties and was shocked that it worked. The downside is that you may be quietly removed from any advancement opportunities.

A guy I worked with at Intel corporation in Portland Oregon one time asked to be moved to Bend Oregon where he could hike, kayak and ski. Intel established a remote office just for him. Smart move on their part, he is a genius.

One thing to keep in mind is that it is a bad deal for your employer to cut you back to 32 hours per week and still have to give you full time benefits.

Not necessarily a deal killer, but if you were willing to drop to 30 hours and lose benefits, it would be a lot easier for them to say ‘yes’.

I have advanced as far as I'd like to (I am 53). Top of the engineering ladder here. Tried management for 4 years 20 years ago, did not enjoy it at all.

Can you elaborate on why is it a bad deal for the employer on the benefits? I would be giving back 20% of my salary?

[Xan]

Can you elaborate on why is it a bad deal for the employer on the benefits? I would be giving back 20% of my salary?

Salary is just part (definitely a big part!) of the amount it costs your employer to employ you. There is all different kinds of overhead. One big one is benefits. Giving back 20% of your salary doesn't make your employer whole.

[Cortopassi]

Can you elaborate on why is it a bad deal for the employer on the benefits? I would be giving back 20% of my salary?

Salary is just part (definitely a big part!) of the amount it costs your employer to employ you. There is all different kinds of overhead. One big one is benefits. Giving back 20% of your salary doesn't make your employer whole.

I guess I will find out when I ask again, but it still isn't clear to me.

I believe they subsidized about 75% of our healthcare costs. Say that's $750 a paycheck. If I made $100k and drop to $80k and 32 hours, wouldn't their healthcare cost still be $750 and now they've got $20k on top of that?

I understand there is sort of an intangible of my 8 hours of work not happening anymore, but how are they ending up less than whole? What am I missing?

[Xan]

It sounds like you're saying the employer comes out even when you drop 20% of your hours and 20% of your salary. Not so, because of the overhead, even in your example. They're paying $750/paycheck, not 80% of $750/paycheck.

[Cortopassi]

It sounds like you're saying the employer comes out even when you drop 20% of your hours and 20% of your salary. Not so, because of the overhead, even in your example. They're paying $750/paycheck, not 80% of $750/paycheck.

Ahhh. Got it.

[Xan]

Then there are other things like your office space, your furniture, your computer, etc etc, which is all only getting 80% usage.

And you'll need just as much HR and bookkeeping regardless of your hours. The risk of you suing the company for one reason or another is pretty close to just as high as before.

Surely salary is the big one, no doubt, and many of the rest are insignificant, but they're there.

[Vil]

Such a question implies there is some sort of imbalance
Joke apart, your stories are truly amazing and I am genuinely happy that I found this forum a year ago.
To the question .. I was lucky enough that I was born and raised in political/economical environment (developed/late communism/socialism) where there were no such things as :
- "working hard" - there was no real reason one should opt going that way, read more on that on below..
- "entrepreneurship" - hmm, is there such a thing in place where there are no private run companies
- "poverty" - ok, you do not have that much (actually in western standards you have quite a lot) - apartment/house, car (most likely the same model as your neighbor), but still you have more than enough to live your simple life (+ free healthcare, mandatory pension funds, etc.)
- "personal savings" - actually, given the above things explained you do not need to care for the basics, also there were not that much extra (luxury) things one could buy in the shops
Please, do not get me wrong - I do not feel any sort of saudade (deep nostalgia) for communism/socialism; I mean I was lucky living in those times, as it really resonates with the youngster's way - quasi form of hippie just living for the day ... Also, I was happy to live those times as they gave me another completely different view point compared to what I've seen later in my life - it's like an orthogonal matrix (developed communism vs capitalism axis) which I can use to orient myself through the various aspects of my life.
Now, I earn more than enough to live a decent life (almost won the game, as you Americans use to say). Even in the times I had to fly constantly across Europe, being here and there and spending endless night hours debugging some ancient software systems, I was still keen on giving myself enough of leisure rewards - mountain hikes, rock climbing, several summer weekends spent at the seashore... keeping in mind just two simple rules - a) we work to live (not the other way round) and b) long life unfortunately is not granted for anyone (ok, again, we are not paranoic on it, but work now, play later is not always the case...).

[vnatale]

You should have been a dentist. I never worked a single Wednesday in 36 years of practice.

I remember years and years and years ago that used to be the practice for doctors. Is that still the same for doctors?

I never realized that was also the case for dentists. Is that the case for all dentists? What did you do with your Wednesdays? Could you have worked on Wednesday if you chose to? I assume so, that is was not against the law? Did it cause you to work more hours each day the rest of the week to make up for work not done on those Wednesdays?

Vinny

I never saw an answer to these questions? Or, did I somehow miss them? I'm trying to always check that first unread message option is working properly. Many times it does not.

Vinny

[Cortopassi]

It strikes me as a bit ridiculous because if cortopassi takes off Wednesday from his job and wants to get dental cleaning done, then Pugchief’s office is closed! What good is taking an extra day off work to get things done if everyone does it at the same time?

HAH!

[jhogue]

Passive income! Get yourself a positive cash flow situation from a business you own, real estate or something else. I currently work about 12 hours per week but still have lots of income from when others are producing at my office. It's awesome.

Yep, as in....read up about FIRE and make that happen!

There is a natural life cycle at work here. In my 20s and 30s, I was all about working hard and playing hard practically nonstop. Then sometime around age 40, that started to shift and I increasingly valued quiet time at home. After age 50, I started to think of work as an intrusion that I wanted to limit, in order to protect my precious personal time. As time has gone on, I find personal time is harder and harder to get enough of. Of course, the fact that work keeps getting more and more onerous and less and less rewarding, just because of trends in the American workplace and culture, has taken a toll as well.

The COVID lockdowns, as much as I can't take pleasure in them knowing how destructive they are for most people, has been an unparalleled blessing for me. I love love love being home all day, and able to structure my own hours however I like. Pugchief, 12 hours a week sounds like a dream though. I would give anything to go down to half time work, and still do it from home. I'm thinking to start with a family leave the moment that the lockdowns end and we have to go back to the usual office schedule.

WiseOne,

Doesn't your university offer phased retirement? My institution allowed me to choose between working half time for up to three years OR working full time every other semester for three years. I took the second option, but decided after two years to pull the plug completely. I think it was a good way to test whether I was ready to retire full time.

[Mark Leavy]

Can you elaborate on why is it a bad deal for the employer on the benefits? I would be giving back 20% of my salary?

Salary is just part (definitely a big part!) of the amount it costs your employer to employ you. There is all different kinds of overhead. One big one is benefits. Giving back 20% of your salary doesn't make your employer whole.

I guess I will find out when I ask again, but it still isn't clear to me.

I believe they subsidized about 75% of our healthcare costs. Say that's $750 a paycheck. If I made $100k and drop to $80k and 32 hours, wouldn't their healthcare cost still be $750 and now they've got $20k on top of that?

I understand there is sort of an intangible of my 8 hours of work not happening anymore, but how are they ending up less than whole? What am I missing?

If you assume that your productivity drops exactly proportional to your reduced hours, the salary part is a wash. But if the employer continues to pay full benefits and overhead on that lesser productivity, he loses out. Plus it is always more headache to deal with something non standard.

For a valuable employee, a lot of companies will swallow the cost. But it isn’t free.

[Mark Leavy]

Still catching up. I see that Xan and Pugchief had better responses.

[geaux saints]

I don't balance them. As a government employee I do the absolute minimum needed to keep my job.

[I Shrugged]

All well and good. But if everyone retired early and lived voluntarily in poverty, etc., the system would collapse, including the goods and services you take for granted. In other words, never forget you’re gaming the system. Especially if you’re getting subsidized health care in the US and would not be able to live the same lifestyle otherwise.

Not saying it’s immoral or anything. Just saying if you game the system in this way, I think it’s sketchy to advocate for higher taxes, social contracts, and such. Don’t forget that productive people are carrying the burden that you’ve dropped.

Smith, I was a workaholic business owner. It paid off but it ate me up. I might have been happier working construction or something. Everything is easier to see in hindsight. One thing is for sure, you’re worrying too much. If I could go back and tell myself what to do differently, I would advise to include in my life plan a strategy for mental calm as well as the more typical achievement goals. Sounds like you’re working on that.

[I Shrugged]

As a government employee I do the absolute minimum needed to keep my job.

There’s an argument for much smaller government, in one sentence.

[Tortoise]

There’s an old saying: Nobody on their death bed ever said, “I wish I’d spent more time at the office.”

Tortoise

[geaux saints]

There’s an old saying: Nobody on their death bed ever said, “I wish I’d spent more time at the office.”

Tortoise

This is pretty much my reasoning. I have a lot of goals in life and none of them involve working.

As a government employee I do the absolute minimum needed to keep my job.

There’s an argument for much smaller government, in one sentence.

I consider myself to be fairly left-wing, but I will say that some of the stuff I've seen has made me rethink my positions more than once.

[vnatale]

You should have been a dentist. I never worked a single Wednesday in 36 years of practice.

I remember years and years and years ago that used to be the practice for doctors. Is that still the same for doctors?

I never realized that was also the case for dentists. Is that the case for all dentists? What did you do with your Wednesdays? Could you have worked on Wednesday if you chose to? I assume so, that is was not against the law? Did it cause you to work more hours each day the rest of the week to make up for work not done on those Wednesdays?

Vinny

I never saw an answer to these questions? Or, did I somehow miss them? I'm trying to always check that first unread message option is working properly. Many times it does not.

Vinny

Okay, Vinny, if you insist....the reason I did not respond (and I say this a nicely as I can) is that the question was so ridiculous, I wasn't sure you were serious.

I mean, yes, the government makes lots of completely idiotic rules, but why would they care what days I work? I used to have a colleague that worked Sundays and took off Mon & Tues because no other dentists were open on Sunday, he got lots of emergencies. Wednesday was for many dentists and physicians and opportunity to play golf midweek since they usually worked at least half a day on Saturdays. But everyone in IL, and the other 49 states for that matter, sets their own work schedule.

When I was working 'full time' I put in 36 hours of direct patient care and another 2 hours of paperwork and admin. Weds were my day to run errands (I only recently took up golf) and do laundry, etc. When my kids were young, I would spend the day with them as well.

My former business partner had set the office hours before I arrived, so we just continued the Wed off thing when I joined in. I always liked having a break mid-week bc it gave my back and stress levels a rest. Now my half day of work twice a week gives me a break from semi-retirement, which is even better.

Of course I was serious. I'd never prior known dentists had somewhat the same scheduled day off as did doctors. I'd never prior known any of what you described above. Thanks for answering. Plus I had been under the impression that dentists worked a lot more hours than you just described. That's less hours than the typical manager in a high percentage of the businesses in our country. You obviously did well financially working those hours. Therefore, congratulations on being able to seemingly achieve the proper work / leisure balance.

[vnatale]

Okay, Vinny, if you insist....the reason I did not respond (and I say this a nicely as I can) is that the question was so ridiculous, I wasn't sure you were serious.

If I know anything about any person, it’s that Jesus Christ died for our sins. If I expand that out to two people, it’s that Vinny is always serious. No one, and I mean no one, not even Jesus Christ himself, is as diligent when it comes to decision-making as Vinny. If Microsoft Excel was around 2,000 years ago, the Lord and Savior’s spreadsheets would not be even the death rate of Covid as comprehensive as our man from Massachusetts.

-Tom

I plead guilty as described!

[geaux saints]

I don't balance them. As a government employee I do the absolute minimum needed to keep my job.

I don't even know what to say, other than there should be no government employees. Even if you aren't a libertarian, you can see that the private sector would deal with this in a better fashion.

Someone just got added to the audit list.