Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

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Re: Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

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vnatale wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:22 pm Depreciation is part of the equation of "Total Cost to Own". We all know vehicles depreciate. When determining how much it costs to own a car you cannot ignore the decline in value of the car over the years you owned it.

Therefore, if I owned a car for five years with operating costs of $7,500 that would not have been my sole costs. If I bought the car for $20,000 and five years later sold it for $8,000 then I had an additional $12,000 cost. Therefore my "Total Cost to Own" that car for those five years was $19,500.

I know you know all of this.
Sure. In fact I used to do this for many years, but I didn't find that it was bringing me happiness. And after I stopped, I noticed that being more loosey-goosey wasn't impacting my net worth growth at all. I know my own psychology well enough to understand that I'm happiest when I consider money that's spent on goods and services (not investments, obviously) to be gone forever. So whenever I sell something that I previously bought, whatever I get from the sale is a bonus, because the entire ownership period has been one long psychological acclimation to the idea that the object lost its entire financial value at the moment of purchase, and presents only a use value.

For example: I bought a new car at the beginning of this year for $30,000. I don't factor it into my net worth at all. As far as I'm concerned, its value is $0. Now, realistically, if I sell it in five years, I'll probably get $8-15k for the sale. I'll be ecstatic! My net worth will go up by that much. What a nice bonus!

This is just what makes me feel good; YMMV. :)
Last edited by Pointedstick on Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

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Pointedstick wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 3:32 pm
vnatale wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 12:22 pm Depreciation is part of the equation of "Total Cost to Own". We all know vehicles depreciate. When determining how much it costs to own a car you cannot ignore the decline in value of the car over the years you owned it.

Therefore, if I owned a car for five years with operating costs of $7,500 that would not have been my sole costs. If I bought the car for $20,000 and five years later sold it for $8,000 then I had an additional $12,000 cost. Therefore my "Total Cost to Own" that car for those five years was $19,500.

I know you know all of this.
Sure. In fact I used to do this for many years, but I didn't find that it was bringing me happiness. And after I stopped, I noticed that being more loosey-goosey wasn't impacting my net worth growth at all. I know my own psychology well enough to understand that I'm happiest when I consider money that's spent on goods and services (not investments, obviously) to be gone forever. So whenever I sell something that I previously bought, whatever I get from the sale a bonus, because the entire ownership period has been one long psychological acclimation to the idea that the object lost its entire financial value at the moment of purchase, and presents only a use value.

For example: I bought a new car at the beginning of this year for $30,000. I don't factor it into my net worth at all. As far as I'm concerned, its value is $0. Now, realistically, if I sell it in five years, I'll probably get $8-15k for the sale. I'll be ecstatic! My net worth will go up by that much. What a nice bonus!

This is just what makes me feel good; YMMV. :)
Understand all you have to say! Completely valid to view it the way you do. It fits who you are.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

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Pointedstick wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 5:36 pm Because you currently use oil (an expensive fuel) and don't have access to natural gas (a cheap fuel) and would have to replace it with propane (another expensive fuel) I strongly encourage you to look into heat pumps.

You will run into countless people--including HVAC contractors--who tell you that it can't be done, that they stop heating properly at 40 degrees, that they only work in Georgia and Florida, that they will cost a fortune, that they only produce warm air that isn't comfortable, and so on.

All of them are wrong. Their information is 30 years out of date.

I know because I encountered these people while I was speccing out a heat pump system for my own house. In the end I got a quad-zone ductless mini-split system installed for about $9,000 out the door ($9,600 before the tax credits) and everything those clowns warned me about was totally wrong. They produce nice hot air. They work great below freezing temperatures. Before I had solar they were no more expensive then natural gas to run. With solar, they are free to run. Yes, free. I did it and you can too! And they give you air conditioning too, if you don't already have that. The filters are washable so you never need to buy new filters ever again. They just sit there blowing hot or cold air. I love them. I'd do it again in a heartbeat and I recommend mini-splits to everyone.

I would encourage you to look into multi-zone ductless mini-split systems and abandon the existing ductwork and equipment. The ductless units are far more efficient than central ducted equipment and far more capable of cold weather operation. Don't put any heads in the bathrooms and each bedroom needs only a 6,000 BTU head--the smaller the better. Contractors will swear you need 9 or 12k BTUs per bedroom but they're all crazy. Then you can put one or two heads in the remaining rooms of the house. If there's a large open area you can use a single large head. They distribute air very well.

What you need to do is talk to contractors until you get someone who doesn't look at you like you're made of bees when you tell him that you want a total mini-split conversion. This is the guy who has actually learned something new in the last few decades and is willing to take your money. He'll do a great job too. It's likely that he's kept his other skills up to date if he knows that mini-splits can work in MA. My parents live in RI and their neighbor has mini-splits. They work perfectly. Just make sure you get a cold climate unit. The Mitsubishi Hyper-Heat models have a great reputation.

You don't need a built-in backup heat source. If anything, you've proved that your computers and body heat and a few space heaters are already an adequate backup heat source. A well-insulated house really doesn't need extraordinary amounts of extra heat pumped into it.

That said, I do have a backup heat source: a nice wood-burning fireplace insert. I got it because I was apprehensive about the same thing you were, but it turned out to be totally unnecessary. However my wife loves having a nice fire going, so we use it anyway, not because we have to when it gets really cold, but because it's a luxury. :)
Looking here: https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/produ ... t#products

You are telling me to avoid "The Dcuted Air Handler" but instead look at the "Other Replacement Solutions"?

I believe that is what you are saying above. If so, do you favor one of the four options over the others?

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

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vnatale wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:01 pm Looking here: https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/produ ... t#products

You are telling me to avoid "The Dcuted Air Handler" but instead look at the "Other Replacement Solutions"?

I believe that is what you are saying above. If so, do you favor one of the four options over the others?

Vinny
Yes. Though looking at the data for their ducted air handler (https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/produ ... ompare/781), it's not as bad as I was remembering. Maybe they improved their offerings for replacement situations. 18-20 SEER and 10 HSPF aren't terrible. And such an install would be much cheaper since it would involve replacing just the furnace air handler with this heat pump air handler. Only two linesets would have to be run to the outdoor unit vs two per head with a multi-zone ductless install.

Still, the ductless wall units will have better efficiency. I would recommend talking with your heat-pump-friendly contractor. Price out both systems.

Oh and do your own Manual J heat load calculation at https://loadcalc.net/ beforehand just to get a ballpark estimate of your head load numbers. You don't have to do a perfect job to be in the ballpark. This is just so that you can be informed if your contractor tells you you need a 80,000 BTU system for your house when your own calculations indicated a 98% load of no more than 40,000. Same principle for insisting on 6k BTU heads (if available) for the bedrooms when they will want to install 9k or 12k heads.
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Re: Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

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Pointedstick wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:21 pm
vnatale wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:01 pm Looking here: https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/produ ... t#products

You are telling me to avoid "The Dcuted Air Handler" but instead look at the "Other Replacement Solutions"?

I believe that is what you are saying above. If so, do you favor one of the four options over the others?

Vinny
Yes. Though looking at the data for their ducted air handler (https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/produ ... ompare/781), it's not as bad as I was remembering. Maybe they improved their offerings for replacement situations. 18-20 SEER and 10 HSPF aren't terrible. And such an install would be much cheaper since it would involve replacing just the furnace air handler with this heat pump air handler. Only two linesets would have to be run to the outdoor unit vs two per head with a multi-zone ductless install.

Still, the ductless wall units will have better efficiency. I would recommend talking with your heat-pump-friendly contractor. Price out both systems.

Oh and do your own Manual J heat load calculation at https://loadcalc.net/ beforehand just to get a ballpark estimate of your head load numbers. You don't have to do a perfect job to be in the ballpark. This is just so that you can be informed if your contractor tells you you need a 80,000 BTU system for your house when your own calculations indicated a 98% load of no more than 40,000. Same principle for insisting on 6k BTU heads (if available) for the bedrooms when they will want to install 9k or 12k heads.
All this wonderful information you continue to provide to me has resulted in getting me to move both physically and using these fingers.

You motivated me to get out of this chair, walk through my 20 degree garage, to go to the basement to look at the oil furnace.

As I was looking at the furnace - its specs and the ducting connected to it - I realized the time I was spending doing so was more time that I'd spent IN TOTAL ever looking at such things in 38+ years of having a forced hot air oil heat system.

In case any of the following helps you guide me...

There are five ducts out of the furnace providing heat. There appears to be only one cold air return.

The following are for:

BTU's / Gallons of oil per hour

85,000 / .65
105,000 / .75
120,000 / .85

Does that tell you that I currently have a 120,000 BTU system?

There was something else I was trying to remember this week that I'd seemingly repeatedly read long ago. I think it said you wanted a furnace that was more often running fairly frequently than one that runs than is off for a long while in between being on again? If it was the latter that meant it was inefficient due to being oversized for your needs? That the former was right sized for you needs? Does this make sense to you? Am I remembering correctly?

I think that mine rarely stays on for extended periods and is mostly off. In spite of last night being barely over zero (0) I still have just under 1/4 tank of oil left and still only having used a shade more than 1/4 tank since the start of October.

Now off to go where you pointed to me above!

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

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Pointedstick wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:21 pm
vnatale wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 6:01 pm Looking here: https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/produ ... t#products

You are telling me to avoid "The Dcuted Air Handler" but instead look at the "Other Replacement Solutions"?

I believe that is what you are saying above. If so, do you favor one of the four options over the others?

Vinny
Yes. Though looking at the data for their ducted air handler (https://www.mitsubishicomfort.com/produ ... ompare/781), it's not as bad as I was remembering. Maybe they improved their offerings for replacement situations. 18-20 SEER and 10 HSPF aren't terrible. And such an install would be much cheaper since it would involve replacing just the furnace air handler with this heat pump air handler. Only two linesets would have to be run to the outdoor unit vs two per head with a multi-zone ductless install.

Still, the ductless wall units will have better efficiency. I would recommend talking with your heat-pump-friendly contractor. Price out both systems.

Oh and do your own Manual J heat load calculation at https://loadcalc.net/ beforehand just to get a ballpark estimate of your head load numbers. You don't have to do a perfect job to be in the ballpark. This is just so that you can be informed if your contractor tells you you need a 80,000 BTU system for your house when your own calculations indicated a 98% load of no more than 40,000. Same principle for insisting on 6k BTU heads (if available) for the bedrooms when they will want to install 9k or 12k heads.
I started it but each choice has innumerable options to choose from, most of which I do not even know what they mean or what I have. Seems like an excellent tool if you know what you are doing!

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

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vnatale wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:05 pm There are five ducts out of the furnace providing heat. There appears to be only one cold air return.
OK so I'm guessing: one register in each bedroom, one in the bathroom, one in the kitchen, one in the living room. Is that right?


vnatale wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:05 pm BTU's / Gallons of oil per hour

85,000 / .65
105,000 / .75
120,000 / .85

Does that tell you that I currently have a 120,000 BTU system?
I'm not very familiar with oil systems but it's one of those three. Either way, this is absurdly oversized for a 900 square foot house.


vnatale wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:05 pm There was something else I was trying to remember this week that I'd seemingly repeatedly read long ago. I think it said you wanted a furnace that was more often running fairly frequently than one that runs than is off for a long while in between being on again? If it was the latter that meant it was inefficient due to being oversized for your needs? That the former was right sized for you needs? Does this make sense to you? Am I remembering correctly?
Yes that's all correct. With the caveat that with heat pumps, you may want to oversize by 10% because the units are less efficient at max capacity than they are at like 70-90%--but only as long as long as your low-load periods don't fall too far below the unit's minimum output level, which will lead to an inefficient on-off cycle. Still, none of this is a huge deal. Just don't oversize by 1.5-3x or more, which is common with furnaces.


vnatale wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:05 pm I think that mine rarely stays on for extended periods and is mostly off.
Yup, it's hugely oversized.
Last edited by Pointedstick on Sat Dec 19, 2020 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

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vnatale wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:28 pm I started it but each choice has innumerable options to choose from, most of which I do not even know what they mean or what I have. Seems like an excellent tool if you know what you are doing!

Vinny
You're a smart guy, I bet you can do it. :) Feel free to ask for help or for definitions.
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Re: Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

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doodle wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:35 pm
Cortopassi wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:19 pm
doodle wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 2:01 pm I burned royal oak all winter in my van...
Anyone want to hear about my boring life? ^-^

Not that I want to live in a van down by the river.
It wasn't nearly as romantic as it sounds. But nothing gets the spirits up like fire!

Sounds like you got it under control, vinny. I dont know about that 77 degrees...I'd be walking around in my underwear at that temp!
What is your heating source? You are heating at 56, correct? I am currently at 54 and doing fine. I want to now push it to 52 or 50. I know I could take it. However, would that increase the possibilities of a no heat situation with the furnace running even less than now? It's barely running now. When I mean barely running, I mean in terms of how much it needs to run to keep the house at 54. It otherwise seems to be running flawlessly as every time I look at the thermostat room temperature it is always at least 54.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

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If your temperature tolerance is that high, probably the cheapest course of action is to stop using the oil system entirely and rely on the warmth produced by your body, your cats, your electronics, and maybe some space heaters, and then make it the next owner's problem. >:D If you feel like spending money you could put it into more insulation and air sealing, and new windows.
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Re: Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

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Pointedstick wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 3:27 pm If your temperature tolerance is that high, probably the cheapest course of action is to stop using the oil system entirely and rely on the warmth produced by your body, your cats, your electronics, and maybe some space heaters, and then make it the next owner's problem. >:D If you feel like spending money you could put it into more insulation and air sealing, and new windows.
To clear up any misconception I may caused....I have terrible tolerance for cold. Far less than the average person. An example. I was at the famous Roger Clemens / Pedro Sunday night game at Yankee Stadium Memorial Day weekend 2000. I was sitting in the bleachers wearing a sweater and leather jacket. And, I was still shivering!

There are two cold tolerant me's. The one that is standing up or moving. And, the one who is sitting. When I am sitting, from my knees down I turn into a block of ice in those areas and need a constant heat source aimed directly at those body parts.

Thus, in the winter, when I was working in my office. I'd always have one of those electric radiators next to me. However, once I moved to a standing desk in 2015 I no longer needed that type of supplemental heat. Though I did have to add a foot warming pad since the underneath the office carpet was just a slab of cold concrete. But still moved from a 1,000 watt heating device to a 60 watt one.

These days almost all my time is spend sitting in this chair. It's currently 73.6 in the room and my feet are always firmly on the 100 watt heating pad.

I can take a 50 degree kitchen since I'm both standing up in there and moving around and only there in five minute spurts. I heat the bathroom with a space heater to the 70s for once a day I am in it. For the three days a week I spend 2 1/2 hours in my living room exercising 54 degrees is fine. This morning being an illustrative example. I start off off with 10 minutes of running in place / running up and down a pad to warm up my body for the subsequent barbell exercises. By the time I finished my body had produced so much heat that I felt totally overheated when I walked back into the room and finished the rest of the two plus hours of exercising just in shorts and a T-Shirt. Plenty enough clothing while self-generating all that body heat.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

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Pointedstick wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:53 pm
vnatale wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 7:05 pm There are five ducts out of the furnace providing heat. There appears to be only one cold air return.
OK so I'm guessing: one register in each bedroom, one in the bathroom, one in the kitchen, one in the living room. Is that right?
Good educated guess!

Though I may have misled you. I now think there are only four ducts providing heat with the other two being cold air returns.

You were correct on the kitchen.

Another one goes to a room in between the kitchen and living room.

Another one goes to a wall that is shared by the bathroom and a bedroom and the register sends the hot air in to both rooms at the same time.

The final one goes to a wall that serves this bedroom and the living room on the other side of this wall (where the thermostat is located).

Each register has this sliding thing like in a car which allows how much of the heat gets out of the register. I always assumed that it you basically closed off one of the registers on a shared wall that more heat gets pushes out on the other side of the wall?

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

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Update!
Here is update from what I put here last Thursday night

I received a fair amount of information / advice via this computer or on the telephone. Here are the “highlights”.

1) One former college classmate from 50 years who is in the oil leakage / spill remediation business scared me sufficiently that I almost wanted my oil tank out of my house as soon as possible!

2) I had been 100% against mini-splits out of the firm belief that they are not the thing for New England. Or, at least not the sole thing since I thought that they did not work below a certain temperature. Which would then require a backup heating system causing me to ask what then is the point of mini-splits? But someone was so adamant that I could have mini-splits as my sole system, with no backups necessary. Which caused me to totally turn my thinking around from them being “No way!” to them possibly being “THE way!”. I was also quite excited when I found out that Artic Refrigeration sells and installs them. Artic Refrigeration sold me my present oil furnace, installed my present how water heater, and sold me and installed my 100 AMP electrical service. I have known the owner for 40 years from him being a major vendor to two different organizations / vendors I’ve been associated with. I trust him 100%. If I were to look at mini-splits, I might just go with him or get only one other quote. The trust factor with him is huge. But, on the other hand, I have no interest in air conditioning. I am decidedly NOT an air conditioning fan! I have been in offices where I feel like I am being put through a second winter. During 2020 I did not once turn on the air conditioner in my car. Open windows with fresh air will always be my preference. My house is East / West (front). I have two large trees in my front yard which blocks much of the summer sun from my house. I keep cool enough with ceiling fans and various fans blowing directly on me. Therefore my concern with going with a mini-split system is that much of my investment would be going to the cooling hardware aspect of it, which is not something I really want or need?

3) I am trying to identify what temperature various rooms in my house would be at if there were ZERO heat anywhere in the house. I assume that after a while (days?) that my house would be at the same temperature as it is outside? Why would not that not be so? Unless there would be some heat retention from the sun enters the house through the windows? Today I realized that is so. While the thermostat was set at 54, it was 58 to 60 in my living room. I attribute that to the small south facing window and the extremely large west facing picture window on that room AND with it being a sunny day? But the basement could be a different story because most of its walls are in contact with the earth and the earth never gets as cold or as warm as the outside air temperature? For example, last week when I had the temperature in my house set at 54 degrees and my garage was at 28 degrees it was at 46 degrees in the basement. How does it maintain that much of a higher temperature than the outside temperature? The furnace was barely running. All the heating ducts from the furnace are insulation wrapped so I do not believe they are putting any heat into the basement. There is no insulation between the basement and the room where I am right now. Just a floor and a subfloor? Is any of that 54 house heat going through the floor to give some heat to the basement? All this is an attempt for me to understand if in a worst case my furnace just stopped entirely for any reason and for a good length of time what are the possibilities of the water pipes in the basement freezing? It does have to reach as low as 32 degrees in the ceiling area of the basement for pipes to freeze, correct?

4) I had one extremely long discussion with someone Sunday night. It was about a lot of things but, at the end, we heavily focused on my heating system issues. Much of the following comes from that discussion.

5) We decided I should follow a parallel track. Pursue both replacing my current oil based heating system with one utilizing mini-splits while at the same time determining the best way to maintain my current oil based heating system.

6) Decisions need to be made and more information is needed regarding my present oil tank. If you go back to #1 you will see the advice I got to get rid of the tank as soon as possible. It was here when I bought my house in 1982. Therefore at least 38+ years old. I do not remember it looking new then. Is it possible it is original to the house (estimated build late 1940s)? The heating system that I finally replaced in 1998 certainly seemed like it was. The tank has never leaked? But is it a ticking time bomb? Do I just replace it sooner than later so that as I get older it does not turn into this bigger problem that I’d rather not deal with at an older age? On the other hand the person who I had the long telephone discussion with stated that he bought his house in 1977. He’s still using the same furnace and oil tank. Has not had his furnace cleaned in five years. Says his tank looks fine.

7) We also discussed getting the sludge out of the oil tank. The sludge IS and been the cause of my heat issues for well over a decade He located for me a company in Keene, New Hampshire that does this work for $345 and suggested to me that if they do it then, maybe, there is someone closer to me who also does this work.

8) We also discussed trying to find someone who could do the thickness measurements on the tank, and most importantly, its bottom so as to get information of its current state of soundness or unsoundness. That would be an extremely important piece of information. If deemed unsound then that automatically answers a big question. Then the choices are either stay with oil heat and replace the tank. Or, abandon oil heat and go with a mini-split solution.

9) Prior to getting all the sludge pumped out some other tactics could be tried like using oversized oil lines from the tank to the burner. Or either using two filers or oversized filters or two oversized filters. But obviously that work would have be done by someone who knows how to do that work plus believes / advises that that would be a good solution to try.

10) As pointed out he had had his furnace since 1977 – 43 years ago. I replaced my furnace in 1998 – 22 years ago. Plus, two years ago I had serious work done to it, similar to rebuilding significant parts in a car. Prior to those repairs I’d asked the person doing the work if he thought I should replace the furnace. He said no. Other than when the sludge causes the problem of oil getting to the furnace the furnace has worked flawlessly. Therefore is it not possible for it to run without major problems for another 5, 10, 15, 20 years?

11) The furnace has never seemed to run much. I’ve always read that that is a sign of inefficiency. Is that a sign that my furnace is oversized for my house? Or, is that a sign of me generally having much lower temperature settings in the house?

12) I am attempting to manage when I finally have to make a decision. Running out of oil or the furnace stopping because of a problem that just keeps recurring or something happening to the oil tank in the dead of the winter is about the worst case. Again the house is being heated to only 54 degrees. Yet in this room it is 76.5 degrees. It started at about 68 degrees this morning around 9:30 AM. In the last six hours the only heat sources have been what has been coming out of the back of two computers and a 100 watt heating pad my feet are currently on.

13) Can I safely set the house at 52 or 50 degrees or will that increase the possibilities of heating problems with the furnace running even less? I can easily take the rest of the house being at those temperatures because in this room I have two space heaters which can easily drive the room temperature to 75, 80 degrees. Of, even 90 (or more) if I so desired!

14) At the start of heating season the tank was 3/8 full. I’ve since lowered the temperature from 58 to 56 and recently to 54 (and, as noted above…I am just itching to set it at 52 or 50!) I just checked the tank level and I am below ¼. But not much. Maybe, at most, a ¼ of the way towards 1/8. Therefore, I started at 12/32’s (3/8’s) full and am now at an estimated 7/32’s full. I’ve used 5/32’s of a tank so far. Or, about 43 gallons in total for nearly the first three months of the heating season. Seems that with proper thermostat management I might be able to stretch out the remaining 7/32’s of a tank or about 60 gallons for another month? To the end of January? Maybe even longer?

15) We are assuming that that the sludge is just sitting in one unmoving lump that is not presently getting mixed into the oil. That the sludge only causes problem when a fill up happens and the huge amount of incoming oil with it attendant pressure it generates unsettles and stirs up the sludge so that now it does get mixed with the oil getting sent out of the tank. That sludge now mixed with the oil either clogs up the filter or the oil lines to the burner. But while that sludge is currently just sitting at the bottom of the tank, unstirred, and completely separate from the oil, as the more and more oil gets burned then that sludge daily becomes a higher percentage of what is in the tank. Once the rest of the oil gets down to a certain level could that sludge get drawn into the filer, ending up with another no heat issue?

16) The person in #4 above and I had another one and one-half hour discussion last night. Here is what we concluded should be my next steps in the following order:

a. Continue the parallel path of pursuing mini-splits or continuing with an oil based heating system as the end solution.
b. Find out if someone can do a measurement on the integrity of the oil tank by measuring its thickness at various locations, particularly its bottom. If that person says that the present oil tank still has integrity, then keep it. If the person says it’d be wise to replace the tank then that opinion would be followed. If the decision is to keep an oil based heating system then that tank will be replaced.
c. If the oil tank is deemed to still have integrity, get a fill up of oil. Turn off the heating system, the night before the delivery and do not turn it back on until a few hours of the delivery so as to minimize the possibilities of any stirred up sludge getting drawn into the oil flow system. Also, get a notice when the delivery is to be made so as to in-person ask the delivery person to deliver the oil into the tank at a slow rate to minimize the stirring up the sludge that is resting at the bottom of the tank. Also, make sure that prior to the oil delivery make sure that a can of the additive is used that is the same as my prior oil person had successfully used for years so as to prevent the sludge issue causing problems.
d. If there is a no heat issue after getting the oil delivery, get either an additional oil filter installed or a double sized filter installed or two double sized filters installed. A regular sized filter costs about $10.
e. If soon after there is another no heat issue after doing d., then put in a new, double sized oil line. A 15’ oil line could not cost more than $20? But since each service call is going to be about $125 maybe this should automatically be done at the same time as d?
f. If another no heat issue, have the sludge pumped out of the tank. I have been led to believe that is possible even with a full tank of oil because the sludge is sitting all at the bottom of the tank since it is heavier than oil.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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vnatale
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Re: Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

Post by vnatale »

Here is an email response I got from that college classmate mentioned in #1 above.

Vinny

Vinny,

I read through this and still maintain that the sludge is a mix of what is in the oil and rust. Google agrees with me:

This sludge sinks to the bottom and collects in the heating oil storage tank. The heating oil sludge you find at the bottom of your oil tank is a combination of rust from the tank, dirt and debris, microorganisms that grow in the tank, and an amount of heavy-end fallout from the fuel itself.

How do I get rid of sludge in my oil tank?
Replace the old sludge-tainted oil tank with a new one. ...
Use heating oil additive products such as "UltraGuard™" and "4-In-Onee Hot™" as sludge dispersants or softening agents. ...
Hire a service technician to unclog lines. ...
Hire an oil company that provides sludge-removal and tank-cleaning services.

The first option is to replace the tank and that is what you should do.

Your friend who said his tank looks fine is playing with fire. The tank rusts from the inside out. If he's so confident, tell him you want to push in the bottom of his tank with your thumb. I am telling you that you should replace your tank rather than taking out the sludge.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

Post by vnatale »

I just finished three phone calls which gave me answers to a lot of questions I had had and has, perhaps, moved me closer to making decisions.

First call was to Artic Refrigeration--the person with whom I have a high degree of trust in.

Initially, it took him awhile to grasp exactly what I was after and my unique situation - just enough heat in the overall house to keep any pipes from freezing but copious amounts of heat when I am in this room.

Once he understood all of that we got going.

He stated he'd definitely replace the oil tank. I asked him ballpark price for a new furnace comparable to the one he'd sold me in 1998. After rebates, it'd be about $4,000. Which is exactly what I'd guessed strictly on the basis of it having cost $2,300 in 1998. That also confirmed that for $7,000 I could have an entirely brand new oil heat system - tank and furnace.

He mentioned propane. I asked, you can also sell and install propane? He said, yes.

But then he added....The whole world is moving away from oil and propane. The rebates are not there for that equipment. The big rebates are on the mini-splits, heat pump end.

After fully understanding my situation, he believed that mini-splits were not the way to go. I asked him about the central heat pump system, wherein my oil furnace would go, this central heat pump would go in the oil furnace's place, and all the forced hot air ducts would be connected to it. He did not believe that would be optimal.

Instead, what he recommended was an outdoor heat pump that would be connected into the existing furnace.

He stated that that setup would not be satisfactory when the temperatures outside were too low and you were trying to heat the house to 70. I reminded him that I could easily get by with the house at 50. He then responded that that could work.

We had also had a prior discussion of the possibilities of water pipes freezing in my basement if I had no central heat going on. He seemed to agree that absent any air infiltration into the basement that is not a concern. I'm nearly 100% certain there is no material air infiltration into my basement.

I asked him about the costs. He said the unit costs $7,000 but with a $3,000 rebate, the net cost would be $4,000. I almost jumped out of my chair!

For only $4,000 I could take the risk that it would work. If it did I'd not have to invest any more money into my oil heating system because I'd never use it. Plus, there would be no oil in that tank!

I know I can heat fine with oil. But that is going to most likely required me to immediately make an investment of $2,500 to $3,500. It'd more likely be the latter because sometimes part of being frugal means buying the best since that can turn out to be the best value in the long run.

However, If I'm doing that, I'm not going to at all do the heat pump.

I'm only going to do the heat pump if it will obviate the necessity of having to make this large oil tank investment.

I do not want to have the two systems.

After finishing that call...I called the largest oil company in the area. I called them because the salesperson I'd be talking to was someone who'd been my softball teammate for many, many years and, thus, he is highly familiar with my out of the norm lifestyle. We talked for 48 minutes. After I'd laid out to him all....he basically agreed with the recommendation I'd received in the prior phone call. We will be in contact again on Monday for him to come to my house sometime later in the week. He mentioned three equipment manufacturers. One of them was the only one my first phone call mentioned: https://www.bosch-thermotechnology.us/u ... 1098838-c/.

I asked if I told him today I want them to do the job when would it happen. He said they are presently booking for the 2nd week of January. When I asked the same question of my first call I got two to four weeks out.

My next call was to someone who I have played basketball with for 30 years and who'd been a long-term assessor of the town and who, therefore, saw a lot in a lot of people's houses. We only got halfway through the discussion before he had to end it. But I did get one reaffirmation on one thing. He stated that when he gets deliveries of oil they shut off their burner and do not turn it back on for a few hours. That way it gives the sludge plenty of time to settle back down. Such a SIMPLE thing to do! Yet no oil company ever advised me to do this nor did any oil technicians! I had read this recommendation while doing all my research last week. Additionally, during a phone call with a friend the prior night he told me that he'd just found out that someone who been having a similar problem did two things. Turned off the burner plus had the delivery person put the oil in as slow as possible so as to minimize the possibilities of sludge being stirred up. He and I will be picking up on discussion on Saturday.

I'm hoping this afternoon to talk to someone who is the only person I know who owns mini-splits plus who owns an energy company that does energy upgrades for housing authorities. I expect for him to be fairly familiar with equipment and their quality. I know that about five years ago when he came to my office building and saw the equipment that had been installed as part of an expensive HVAC upgrade / renovation that his response was: "You had low quality equipment installed." I was not at all involved in the project.

Vinny



Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Help keep Vinny and his 12 pets from freezing this winter!!!!!

Post by vnatale »

My update...

In this process I've been dismayed that I've not been able to count on the professionals to do their job. Which is gather all my specific, unique information and then give me a comprehensive solutions that fits my needs and NOT a cookie cutter solution.

That led me to deciding that I needed to creating one document that had all information possible a vendor would need regarding my house and anything else that supports my two overriding needs:

1) To never risk having frozen, burst water pipes
2) To have copious amounts of heat on me whenever I am in this room.

Of course, a lot of other details, but those are the two main goals.

It ended up being an 8 page document! You just got the condensed version above.

I spent Friday and yesterday doing my research and creating it.

Then last night I sent it out to many vendors.

But I wondered would there be anyone who would actually read the entire document to understand what I really needed which would then lead to them not asking questions I'd already given them the answers and providing me with the most optimal solutions?

I wondered if I'd find even one person who would do the above.

I went into even more despair this morning when I walked into my living room and I saw the thermostat's thermometer was reading 50, which felt quite cold. I had wondered if the system had failed over the last day and I was just noticing. If it had with having no person to call could it lead to me having no house heat for 3 weeks, a month??!! Yes, I can supply heat to this room but that gets harder if the whole house is at 20 or less!

I decided to try one simple step. I turned the thermostat up to 60 degrees. I thought I could nearly immediately hear the furnace running through the vent but decided to get 100% confirmation by going to the basement. Yes! The furnace was running. Doing its job of only running to keep the house at 50.

I immediately put the thermostat back to 50.

Then I found I'd received this email from one of the vendors who I'd sent the document to last night. He'd replied at 7 AM this morning! On a weekend!

At the beginning he apologized for being too "long winded". To me??!! Those were extreme points in his favor in that he demonstrated to me that not only did he read the entire document but had understood my needs and was giving me answers and recommendations that fit me. I will be seeing him this coming Thursday for him to get the actual visuals on what I have. I'm thrilled!

Someone else is coming tomorrow and we'll see who else is interested.

I feel like I'm finally on a downward path after all the hours and hours and hours I've put into this over the last three week.

Hopefully, I can get in all visits this week so that I can soon after make a decision of what to do and who to do it so that I can get on their schedule for doing the work.

I really wished I'd not have to do all this project management on my own and I had someone in place who knew me and my needs and could just make the appropriate recommendations I'd have accepted with no further work on my part. But the two sets of people I used in January 2020 left me with no confidence in them, leaving me with being on my own, and learning possible solutions so that I could manage the professionals who will actually be doing the work.

It has been a learning experience but one I wish I had not had to go through.

The only blessing could be is that I will now have someone in place who will provide much better solutions for future needs than the solutions I'd been given in the past.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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