Optimal Diet

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
Cortopassi
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2970
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:28 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by Cortopassi » Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:29 pm

pp--Yes, read some Jason Fung.

"Can just the sight of food raise insulin?
We’ve all heard of studies that show that simply tasting something sweet without ingesting it can raise insulin, but can simply seeing certain foods trigger the same process?

Sylvie

Yes. this is called the cephalic response. The sight or smell of food starts you salivating and insulin starts rising immediately even if you do not eat.

Dr. Jason Fung"

I started at least 2x a week 24 fasts, dinner to dinner, and have done intermittent daily for a long time (but not really because I would always have some minimal mid-morning snack, like a banana). I think the nothing, or near nothing fasts and IF is key (for me) otherwise, what I think is a little low calorie / keto snack likely still caused some level of insulin rise.

What I have found with my body (now at 184.5) is the 24 hour fasts and "true" I.F. has broken through a previous plateau that I never could get through for years, without any hunger. Again, I don't know what my goal is -- next I need to buy a glucose meter and see what my blood sugar is at various times.

But I truly believe for me it is breaking through the insulin resistance that is making this happen. And now it is mindless. It is actually easier to know I don't have to find or make something for lunch on those couple days. I just do something else.

I have had no loss of energy.
User avatar
pugchief
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4489
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:41 pm
Location: suburbs of Chicago, IL

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by pugchief » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:07 am

To clarify, it's not just carbs with the insulin, but even very small amounts of protein or fat? So adding butter to morning black coffee would kill the fast?
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1542
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by Mark Leavy » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:17 am

pugchief wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:07 am
To clarify, it's not just carbs with the insulin, but even very small amounts of protein or fat? So adding butter to morning black coffee would kill the fast?
Fasting purists will say yes, but it all depends on why you are fasting. Pure fat, with no carbs or protein shouldn't cause an insulin response. And no matter what you are doing, a few calories (say under 50) don't affect your fast in any real life way.

I don't claim to do intermittent fasting, but I do usually only eat one meal a day. And I do usually put some heavy cream in my coffee in the morning, which, while mostly fat does have a small amount of protein and carb in it.
User avatar
jalanlong
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 449
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:30 am

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by jalanlong » Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:56 am

SomeDude wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 4:29 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:11 pm
I have been 75% Keto for the past 4 months. This is the longest I have been able to do it, and it has not bothered me. I went from a consistent 197-199 range to a 189-191 range. Joints are excellent, clothes fit great. Big motivations!

How am I doing it this time? Because I am not strict. I allow myself stuff like candy and chips. But the big change is the amount. I just eat less. It hasn't been hard for me. Instead of a bag of M&Ms, I will eat 5-10, slowly, and I am satisfied. Instead of a couple Tbsp of peanut butter, more like a teaspoon, and I just eat it slower.

And I snack very, very little after dinner. That used to be hard, not anymore.
Very good results. Do you have a goal weight?

I have done very high-fat diets ala the Primal Blueprint which made me feel great. There were other benefits too, let's just call them a testosterone boost.

I've done all meat for about 2-3 weeks a couple years ago. I ate just burgers with cheese for lunch and a ribeye steak cooked in butter every night.

My energy dropped, I looked like ass, lost about 8 lbs in 3 weeks on it.

If I didn't have a wife and baby and busy worklife to content with, I'd go back to primal which is primarily animal fats and protein for about 90% of calories and veggies/berries for the other 10%, zero grains.
What was the difference in the diets besides the 10% berries and grains? It wouldn’t seem like that 10% could alone be the difference in how you felt but I am no expert on it for sure.
User avatar
Cortopassi
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2970
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:28 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by Cortopassi » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:45 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:17 am
pugchief wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 8:07 am
To clarify, it's not just carbs with the insulin, but even very small amounts of protein or fat? So adding butter to morning black coffee would kill the fast?
Fasting purists will say yes, but it all depends on why you are fasting. Pure fat, with no carbs or protein shouldn't cause an insulin response. And no matter what you are doing, a few calories (say under 50) don't affect your fast in any real life way.

I don't claim to do intermittent fasting, but I do usually only eat one meal a day. And I do usually put some heavy cream in my coffee in the morning, which, while mostly fat does have a small amount of protein and carb in it.
I do the same. Cream in coffee. Fung seems to think similarly, that at such a low calorie amount and mostly fat, it doesn't break the fast.

I have no scientific way to prove this though. All I can do is look at and feel the results.
User avatar
pp4me
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 866
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:12 pm

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by pp4me » Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:41 pm

I was in the habit of putting heavy cream in my morning coffee when I first started with IF. When I got to a point where my weight loss stalled I switched to drinking my coffee black and the weight loss began again. I believe I heard Dr. Ken Berry saying in one of his Youtube videos that he had the same experience which is why I did it.

I do miss the cream however. Never used sugar but always used cream before - even that powdered crap which was what they had for free at work.

My Dad always put half and half plus two spoons of sugar in his coffee and he didn't just drink it in the morning. He lived to be 92 but I tend to believe he would have lived longer and been more healthy if he had just given up that one habit.
User avatar
Cortopassi
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2970
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:28 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by Cortopassi » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:06 pm

FYI, I am a data centric person, esp. when it comes to my health, here is a graph of my weight for the past 8 years. For the recent drop -- the main difference from other attempts is the adding of twice a week 24 hour fasts. And true intermittent fasting otherwise (except for cream in coffee)

I have no goal weight, I feel fine here. It is just good to see it can be done without hunger and without cravings and I wish doctors would preach this more. Every 5lbs I kind of go, let's try for another 5, but soon my wife may think I have a problem!

Image
User avatar
Cortopassi
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2970
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:28 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by Cortopassi » Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:07 pm

pp4me wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:41 pm
I do miss the cream however.
I drink coffee...for the cream...! Hard time drinking it black, strangely enough, unless it is a really strong shot of espresso. But I don't ever use sugar.
User avatar
pp4me
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 866
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:12 pm

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by pp4me » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:34 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:07 pm
pp4me wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 12:41 pm
I do miss the cream however.
I drink coffee...for the cream...! Hard time drinking it black, strangely enough, unless it is a really strong shot of espresso. But I don't ever use sugar.
I used to love the flavored creamers so it was hard to give that up.

I dislike the taste of black coffee so much I just tried giving it up altogether for almost 2 weeks, during which time I discovered I was a caffeine addict. My body didn't like it at all and when I finally drank a cup it was very thankful. Felt like I had a new lease on life.
flyingpylon
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 785
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:04 am

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by flyingpylon » Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:00 pm

I put a scoop of collagen peptides in my coffee. It gives it a creamier texture than straight black, but not as much as "non-dairy creamer" (which is usually corn syrup solids) and certainly nothing like real cream.
User avatar
Cortopassi
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2970
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:28 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by Cortopassi » Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:55 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:00 pm
I put a scoop of collagen peptides in my coffee. It gives it a creamier texture than straight black, but not as much as "non-dairy creamer" (which is usually corn syrup solids) and certainly nothing like real cream.
I will have to try that. Cream is free at work (actually 1/2 and 1/2 so even a bit more carbs.)
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5945
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by vnatale » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:18 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:06 pm

FYI, I am a data centric person, esp. when it comes to my health, here is a graph of my weight for the past 8 years. For the recent drop -- the main difference from other attempts is the adding of twice a week 24 hour fasts. And true intermittent fasting otherwise (except for cream in coffee)

I have no goal weight, I feel fine here. It is just good to see it can be done without hunger and without cravings and I wish doctors would preach this more. Every 5lbs I kind of go, let's try for another 5, but soon my wife may think I have a problem!

Image


This is now the 20th year that I've been logging my daily weight.

Below is my graph for those 20 years. The top line (red) is the most I weighed any one day of that year. The middle line (blue) is my average weight for the year. The bottom line (green) is the least I weighed any one day that year.

In late 2015 I changed my diet from vegetarian to vegan.

I'm currently on a nine (9) day streak wherein I am setting personal records during these 20 years for weighing the least I have ever weighed on that date. Today at 144.6 is both the lowest for any April 11th AND for this year.

Vinny

w.JPG
w.JPG (136.99 KiB) Viewed 721 times
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1542
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Colorado Lamb in a Mojito Flambé

Post by Mark Leavy » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:02 pm

lamb.jpeg
lamb.jpeg (167.9 KiB) Viewed 682 times
New Orleans
User avatar
sophie
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4426
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by sophie » Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:45 am

Looks yummy Mark! But mojito has a ton of sugar.

Pugchief back to the fluoride question....I disagree about fluoride in toothpaste not being systemically absorbed. If it can get into your teeth, it should be much more easily absorbed through gums and mucus membranes. It's also a small molecule so very likely to diffuse readily - depending on what it's attached to though.

There is enough evidence about fluoride as an endocrine disruptor to make me not want to ingest it. Also, municipal water supplies greatly exceed that 4 ppm limit you cited. NYC is up in the 7ppm range for example, and it's been higher in the past. And toothpaste would be higher yet. The main point is that if my dental health personally does fine without fluoride, then you can hardly argue that I need it, can you? And that "N of 1" situation is all I care about.

There is plenty of evidence that SOMETHING in our modern diet & environment is messing with our endocrine systems. Girls reaching menarche years earlier than in the past, the epidemic of hypothyroidism etc. I'm sure there are multiple factors but this one is a possibility. Even if there is a benefit for some people, it's not exactly good public policy to do something that will harm large groups of people in order to benefit another group (though I suppose that's the sort of effect you get with most government actions).

Plus it's just kind of maddening that I'm paying the city to put fluoride in my drinking water, and simultaneously paying a company for a filter that will take it back out again.
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4398
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:33 pm

Yellowest teeth I’ve ever seen were on a guy from west Texas; I worked with him in the late 60s, early 70s when we lived in the Houston area. He said it was the result of a lot of fluoride in the water when he was growing up. He also said he had never had a cavity. He was 45 or 50 when I knew him.
Psalm 146
User avatar
pp4me
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 866
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2020 4:12 pm

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by pp4me » Wed Apr 21, 2021 2:03 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:33 pm
Yellowest teeth I’ve ever seen were on a guy from west Texas; I worked with him in the late 60s, early 70s when we lived in the Houston area. He said it was the result of a lot of fluoride in the water when he was growing up. He also said he had never had a cavity. He was 45 or 50 when I knew him.
Yellowest teeth I've seen were in recent photos of Prince Phillip before he died. You'd think with all that money he could have gotten them whitened a bit.

Also looked like a walking corpse.

I'd say the Royal diet wasn't good for his health if it wasn't for the fact he lived to be 99.
User avatar
pugchief
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4489
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:41 pm
Location: suburbs of Chicago, IL

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by pugchief » Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:20 pm

sophie wrote:
Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:45 am
Looks yummy Mark! But mojito has a ton of sugar.

Pugchief back to the fluoride question....I disagree about fluoride in toothpaste not being systemically absorbed. If it can get into your teeth, it should be much more easily absorbed through gums and mucus membranes. It's also a small molecule so very likely to diffuse readily - depending on what it's attached to though.

There is enough evidence about fluoride as an endocrine disruptor to make me not want to ingest it. Also, municipal water supplies greatly exceed that 4 ppm limit you cited. NYC is up in the 7ppm range for example, and it's been higher in the past. And toothpaste would be higher yet. The main point is that if my dental health personally does fine without fluoride, then you can hardly argue that I need it, can you? And that "N of 1" situation is all I care about.

There is plenty of evidence that SOMETHING in our modern diet & environment is messing with our endocrine systems. Girls reaching menarche years earlier than in the past, the epidemic of hypothyroidism etc. I'm sure there are multiple factors but this one is a possibility. Even if there is a benefit for some people, it's not exactly good public policy to do something that will harm large groups of people in order to benefit another group (though I suppose that's the sort of effect you get with most government actions).

Plus it's just kind of maddening that I'm paying the city to put fluoride in my drinking water, and simultaneously paying a company for a filter that will take it back out again.
Plastics.

As far as fluoride, Gumby asked a similar question years ago, and it devolved quickly. I am not a biochemist, so my only opinion/knowledge on the matter is what I was told in Dschool and by the ADA. We have no agenda to promote it other than for public health as it is clearly a business-killer to our profession. If you believe it is bad for you, filter your water and use toothpaste that is fluoride-free. You'll get no pushback from me. I will note that water bottled in plastic is a much greater risk, as they are now assuming microplastics are leaching into the liquid.
User avatar
sophie
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4426
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by sophie » Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:59 am

Good point pugchief!!

Does it matter if the plastic is BPA-free? I almost never buy plastic bottles of water, but I have a Sodastream plastic bottle that I use for making sparkling water from my tap. Otherwise I chill water in a metal SIG bottle.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 3396
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by Xan » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:31 am

sophie wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:59 am
Good point pugchief!!

Does it matter if the plastic is BPA-free? I almost never buy plastic bottles of water, but I have a Sodastream plastic bottle that I use for making sparkling water from my tap. Otherwise I chill water in a metal SIG bottle.
What about canned soda water? Is that lined with plastic?
User avatar
pugchief
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4489
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:41 pm
Location: suburbs of Chicago, IL

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by pugchief » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:32 am

sophie wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:59 am
Good point pugchief!!

Does it matter if the plastic is BPA-free? I almost never buy plastic bottles of water, but I have a Sodastream plastic bottle that I use for making sparkling water from my tap. Otherwise I chill water in a metal SIG bottle.
My guess would be that a bottle specifically made for re-use would be way better than the disposable/recyclable ones that everything at the gas station comes in. But given the choice, I would still prefer a metal or glass container.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 3396
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by Xan » Thu Apr 22, 2021 11:34 am

sophie wrote:
Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:59 am
Good point pugchief!!

Does it matter if the plastic is BPA-free? I almost never buy plastic bottles of water, but I have a Sodastream plastic bottle that I use for making sparkling water from my tap. Otherwise I chill water in a metal SIG bottle.
The water spends hardly any time in that plastic Sodastream bottle, compared to sitting out in the heat on a shipping palate.

The Sodastream Penguin has a glass curafe. https://www.williams-sonoma.com/product ... ter-maker/
User avatar
Cortopassi
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2970
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:28 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:47 am

Just an update and observations:

1) As Fung says many times, "how often" you eat is significantly more important than "what" you eat (even though you shouldn't be eating refined stuff anyway.)

2) I have been doing 2x a week dinner to dinner fasts, and otherwise do my normal intermittent fasting (no breakfast except coffee/cream).

3) I have 100% removed snacking. There's no doubt this was the linchpin for me. I must have been keeping my insulin perpetually high...banana at 9:30, couple pieces of chocolate later morning, lunch, bag of chips or granola bar mid afternoon, dinner, something else around 9-10 at night. Overall the number of calories I was eating still wasn't a lot compared to most people, but I was effectively eating all the time from an insulin point of view so I was storing those calories.

4) I can eat carbs without a blowup now. Just had my Dad's 89th birthday. Cake, ice cream, pizza, wine. I added one pound from that which was gone within a day. Previously, something like that would have popped me up 3-5 pounds and taken a couple weeks to revert.

Just hoping this is helpful for others, which is why I am posting.

https://www.dietdoctor.com/my-single-be ... t-loss-tip
stuper1
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1118
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:18 pm

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by stuper1 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:06 am

So, five days a week you eat lunch and dinner, and two days a week you eat only dinner, and no other eating besides those meals? Am I understanding that right?
User avatar
Cortopassi
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2970
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:28 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:21 am

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 9:06 am
So, five days a week you eat lunch and dinner, and two days a week you eat only dinner, and no other eating besides those meals? Am I understanding that right?
Correct. Tue/Thurs only dinner. I was amazed at how tasty and satisfying dinner is on those days!

The interesting thing is how it simplifies things. No worries about what to make, what to eat on those days. I either just work through or pull out my Kindle.

I've never been one to feel hungry anyway, so it was easy for me. I suspect it might be hard for some, esp. since eating at certain times becomes a habit.

The one thing I have been struggling with is whether I have a goal weight in mind. With this current setup, I am reliably around 182-185lbs. Whereas I was previously plateaued above about 193. I just don't know what I want to end up at. It's almost a game now. When I pull up "ideal" weight calculators, for my height, the range is 171 to 196 I believe.

I should be happy where I am at. Might take me a while to actually let that sink in. I am still mentally the fat 7th grader.
stuper1
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1118
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:18 pm

Re: Optimal Diet

Post by stuper1 » Wed Apr 28, 2021 4:41 pm

Very interesting. Thank you for telling about this. I should give it a try. I certainly need to lose a few pounds, and the things I've tried haven't worked.
Post Reply