Bitcoin - they coming for you

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Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by doodle » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:17 am

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I Shrugged
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:54 am

A lot of people have long predicted such a move. So then the question becomes, how anonymous is it, really? If you own it and plan to stay off the radar, you certainly won't be able to use it for mainstream commerce. Then what?
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by Smith1776 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:14 pm

And with the BTC price hitting all-time highs we may be able to come to a prima facie conclusion that this information is not reflected in the price.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by doodle » Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:08 pm

Smith1776 wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 2:14 pm
And with the BTC price hitting all-time highs we may be able to come to a prima facie conclusion that this information is not reflected in the price.
I have a feeling the average Bitcoin investor has no idea what they are involved in. I think where you do see big investors jumping in they realize this is a prime pump and dump opportunity. There is way too much woo surrounding Bitcoin for me to be comfortable with it.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by Ad Orientem » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:15 pm

There have been multiple, and very credible reports, that Bitcoin has been used on a massive scale for money laundering by organized crime figures. And that there was a lot of price manipulation, again by gangsters, in BC's earlier big moves. I wouldn't touch BC even if I was playing with Donald Trump's money.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by whatchamacallit » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:03 pm

I am still calling for the top to be when it is on the cover of time magazine. Hopefully it will only be crypto that crashes then.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by doodle » Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:29 am

It probably will hit some ungodly ridiculous number like 300,000 before it pops.

Ive been watching it since 2016 and continuously scratching my head. The fact that there are so many competing cryptos and barrier to entry is so low makes it all the more confusing.

This is literally tulip bulbs mania except you don't even get a tulip...

I get it, all fiat currency is the same in that it depends on an illusion of value. Short of a total dollar collapse I don't see how Bitcoin has long term staying power. Other than as an avenue for illegal money laundering that Ad pointed out, i can't think of any advantages over the regular banking system.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by dualstow » Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:27 am

I think the bitcoin that Marc de Mesel generously gave me on this forum that Reub and i were unable to cash out was worth $2000 when BTC was $10,000, so $4,000 now. What a shame. They want 12 words in a passphrase, and I have 9.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by Matthew19 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 11:52 pm

doodle wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:29 am
he fact that there are so many competing cryptos and barrier to entry is so low makes it all the more confusing.
Bitcoin is open source, you could personally clone it and launch a new version tomorrow. What you're missing is the value of network effect. The users add to the value, which brings in more users, etc. No different than this forum really. You wouldn't be here if there's weren't.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by bitcoininthevp » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:35 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:15 pm
There have been multiple, and very credible reports, that Bitcoin has been used on a massive scale for money laundering by organized crime figures. And that there was a lot of price manipulation, again by gangsters, in BC's earlier big moves. I wouldn't touch BC even if I was playing with Donald Trump's money.
This must be a joke. The USD has massive laundering that exceeds the entire $500 billion market cap of bitcoin.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by bitcoininthevp » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:43 pm

doodle wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:29 am
It probably will hit some ungodly ridiculous number like 300,000 before it pops.
You’re right. Then the bubble will pop down to $50k and everyone will call it dead. Like they did from $30->$1, $260->$40, $1200->$200, $19k->$3k.

Do you see the pattern? How many decades and increasingly larger bubbles did tulips or beanie babies have?
doodle wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:29 am
Ive been watching it since 2016 and continuously scratching my head. The fact that there are so many competing cryptos and barrier to entry is so low makes it all the more confusing.
"There are so many metals, we can even synthesize some, why does gold have any value??" The answer is the same in either case. Gold has money-valuable properties that the others dont. Bitcoin has money-valuable properties that the others dont.
doodle wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:29 am
I get it, all fiat currency is the same in that it depends on an illusion of value. Short of a total dollar collapse I don't see how Bitcoin has long term staying power. Other than as an avenue for illegal money laundering that Ad pointed out, i can't think of any advantages over the regular banking system.
Bitcoin is an inflation-resistant, censorship-resistant, seizure-resistant, pseudonymous digital asset in the time of ever increasing inflation, censorship, taxation, and privacy invasion. You really don't see why it would increase in value amongst the market? Its inflation resistance alone is enough to make it a reasonable speculation.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by bitcoininthevp » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:45 pm

dualstow wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:27 am
I think the bitcoin that Marc de Mesel generously gave me on this forum that Reub and i were unable to cash out was worth $2000 when BTC was $10,000, so $4,000 now. What a shame. They want 12 words in a passphrase, and I have 9.
Im not aware of any 9 word seeds. Its possible it was a 12 word seed and we could brute force the remaining 3 words. If its worth your time to do that, message me privately and I can assist.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by doodle » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:55 pm

bitcoininthevp wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:43 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:29 am
It probably will hit some ungodly ridiculous number like 300,000 before it pops.
You’re right. Then the bubble will pop down to $50k and everyone will call it dead. Like they did from $30->$1, $260->$40, $1200->$200, $19k->$3k.

Do you see the pattern? How many decades and increasingly larger bubbles did tulips or beanie babies have?
doodle wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:29 am
Ive been watching it since 2016 and continuously scratching my head. The fact that there are so many competing cryptos and barrier to entry is so low makes it all the more confusing.
"There are so many metals, we can even synthesize some, why does gold have any value??" The answer is the same in either case. Gold has money-valuable properties that the others dont. Bitcoin has money-valuable properties that the others dont.
doodle wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 5:29 am
I get it, all fiat currency is the same in that it depends on an illusion of value. Short of a total dollar collapse I don't see how Bitcoin has long term staying power. Other than as an avenue for illegal money laundering that Ad pointed out, i can't think of any advantages over the regular banking system.
Bitcoin is an inflation-resistant, censorship-resistant, seizure-resistant, pseudonymous digital asset in the time of ever increasing inflation, censorship, taxation, and privacy invasion. You really don't see why it would increase in value amongst the market? Its inflation resistance alone is enough to make it a reasonable speculation.
Yes, that's what the marketing brochure says. I'm not so sure I buy that. I don't know enough about any of this to even attempt to claim I understand what is going on. But, when people at major research institutions who understand and study this technology call it bullshit...I give that some weight

https://www.vox.com/conversations/2018 ... y-weaver

For everyone with the balls to gamble on Bitcoin, I wish them luck. Might it continue to sky rocket? Sure. I have no idea. I missed amazon, facebook and tesla...but I'm still doing okay. At this point the downside risk outweighs the potential upside for me.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by SomeDude » Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:56 pm

bitcoininthevp wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:43 pm
Gold has money-valuable properties that the others dont. Bitcoin has money-valuable properties that the others dont.
What are bitcoin's properties? Gold I get. You can eschew all it's properties and just say it's beautiful and women like it for jewelry lol. That's enough to ensure it will always be desired.

I have no clue why someone would ever want a bitcoin. Yes people appear to want it because the price is going up and they want the purchasing power associated with a rising price. But who actually wants a bitcoin?

Not an attack, a serious question: What are the properties of bitcoin that make anyone want it? I get that it's limited in qty unlike dollars but absent government decree no one would want dollars backed by nothing. Why does anyone want a bitcoin? Why will anyone always want bitcoin? Someone will always have to want it because if no one wants it, the price goes to zero.

Gold can't go to zero again, at least because of the ladies.

Not trying to make this a gold vs bitcoin debate, but a comparison of the differences. I have heard lots of comparisons but I don't see it. One is physical, tangible, and desired for it's own sake rather than it's price.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by doodle » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:02 pm

I honestly believe Bitcoin has the magic sauce for where we are at right now in the world. In some sense everything in 2020 feels so chaotic and jumbled that it doesn't even matter if emperor Bitcoin is wearing any clothes or not.

I watched a documentary on Congo where people will literally spend months worth of wages for this juice that is essentially gasoline mixed with lemonade cause some popular preacher tells everyone it will cure everything from cancer to Aids. Bitcoin reminds me a lot of that. It's a modern day snake oil to cure us from all the real and manufactured upheaval and chaos we think surrounds us.
Last edited by doodle on Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by bitcoininthevp » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:03 pm

doodle wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:55 pm
Yes, that's what the marketing brochure says. I'm not so sure I buy that. I don't know enough about any of this to even attempt to claim I understand what is going on. But, when people at major research institutions who understand and study this technology call it bullshit...I give that some weight

https://www.vox.com/conversations/2018 ... y-weaver

For everyone with the balls to gamble on Bitcoin, I wish them luck. Might it continue to sky rocket? Sure. I have no idea. I missed amazon, facebook and tesla...but I'm still doing okay. At this point the downside risk outweighs the potential upside for me.
I admire your intellectual honesty and humbleness.

I think it is worth your time to investigate bitcoin further. That is the main reason I post in these forums. It seems folks that invest in something as "crazy" (not mainstream, GOLD?) as the PP could potentially be folks that would adopt Bitcoin.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by bitcoininthevp » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:11 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:56 pm
bitcoininthevp wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:43 pm
Gold has money-valuable properties that the others dont. Bitcoin has money-valuable properties that the others dont.
What are bitcoin's properties? Gold I get. You can eschew all it's properties and just say it's beautiful and women like it for jewelry lol. That's enough to ensure it will always be desired.

I have no clue why someone would ever want a bitcoin. Yes people appear to want it because the price is going up and they want the purchasing power associated with a rising price. But who actually wants a bitcoin?

Not an attack, a serious question: What are the properties of bitcoin that make anyone want it? I get that it's limited in qty unlike dollars but absent government decree no one would want dollars backed by nothing. Why does anyone want a bitcoin? Why will anyone always want bitcoin? Someone will always have to want it because if no one wants it, the price goes to zero.

Gold can't go to zero again, at least because of the ladies.

Not trying to make this a gold vs bitcoin debate, but a comparison of the differences. I have heard lots of comparisons but I don't see it. One is physical, tangible, and desired for it's own sake rather than it's price.
Check out this post where I tried to put it all in one spot:
bitcoininthevp wrote:
Mon Jan 07, 2019 9:49 am
I cant know your situation and how Bitcoin might benefit you, but here are some examples of what people are using Bitcoin for. I am not claiming Bitcoin is a perfect solution for each of these uses cases, but that this is what people can and are using it for.

Censorship resistance. This includes individuals whose payments are typically censored, like wikileaks or online drug markets. This also includes groups or individuals who getting "deplatformed" (block by paypal or other fundraising platforms) because they have views that those platforms (or their governments) do not like.

Store of value. This includes people in countries whose currencies are inflating at a rate that makes Bitcoin's current volatility seem appealing. It also includes people in countries with lacking or no banking services available to them.

Speculation. This includes short term traders trying to trade on trends. But this also includes people that hold long term who believe Bitcoin can become money and in order to do so will appreciate drastically in value.

International payments. This includes people remitting money from overseas to their family. Also people paying for goods and services overseas can save money by using Bitcoin to transact. There are also countries where it is hard or impossible to exchange with online which would be serviced by Bitcoin.

Private payments. While Bitcoin is not completely anonymous, it can be transacted in a "more private" way. This includes individuals who value their financial privacy.

Micropayments. It is possible to transact in bitcoin using fractions of pennies. Especially using tools ontop of bitcoin (lightning network). This is applicable for pay-per-use services like an online newspaper paywall, paying realtime per minute used on a cell plan, etc. Even new use cases are opened up here like machine to machine micro transaction payments.

Tax evasion. This is for individuals who do not wish to pay the government the recommended taxes: income tax or otherwise.

Anti confiscation. This includes people that want to have value stored in something that cannot easily be stolen. Individuals crossing borders, feeling countries, etc. Asset forfeiture is applicable here. It also includes anyone fearful that their government might become a bit more invasive.

Anti inflation hedge. This includes individuals wanting to hold money that isnt inflating. As this use case becomes more appealing (bitcoin's volatility decreasing), Bitcoin will be a threat to central banks and the governments that attain part of their non-taxation funding from inflating the money supply. By eliminating the ability for governments to print money to benefit themselves, governments will have to shrink or get their funding from increasing taxes, which is harder than inflating.

Cheaper payments. Fees on Bitcoin transactions can be very low. So there is some advantage for people transacting in Bitcoin, even in the same country, where fees might be high. This might be the case when making medium/large purchase online and avoiding the ~3% credit card fee for example.

Programmable money. I give my son bitcoin that cannot be spent before the year 2050 for example. My 3 business partners and I can fund a bitcoin address such that 2 our of the 3 of us has to approve the transaction in order for it to go through. Google "smart contracts" for other examples of this.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by doodle » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:11 pm

bitcoininthevp wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:03 pm
doodle wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:55 pm
Yes, that's what the marketing brochure says. I'm not so sure I buy that. I don't know enough about any of this to even attempt to claim I understand what is going on. But, when people at major research institutions who understand and study this technology call it bullshit...I give that some weight

https://www.vox.com/conversations/2018 ... y-weaver

For everyone with the balls to gamble on Bitcoin, I wish them luck. Might it continue to sky rocket? Sure. I have no idea. I missed amazon, facebook and tesla...but I'm still doing okay. At this point the downside risk outweighs the potential upside for me.
I admire your intellectual honesty and humbleness.

I think it is worth your time to investigate bitcoin further. That is the main reason I post in these forums. It seems folks that invest in something as "crazy" (not mainstream, GOLD?) as the PP could potentially be folks that would adopt Bitcoin.
Oh for sure you got the right audience here. No doubt shills like Max Keiser do a great job at pumping things up, make it sound like the entire world is going to shit and missing out on gold and Bitcoin is like turning down an opportunity to board Noah's ark.

Of course, it's important to note that Max Keiser majored in theater and worked in television production his entire career. He has a flair for the dramatic. Those who understand the technology and monetary system have a much more reasoned approach.

As to those hedge funds jumping in I think they are participating in a psychological bet. They can spot a bubble forming and know where this is headed. When will the music stop? Who knows. Bubbles can reach heights of insanity few can conceive of. I'm sure either way these guys have insured and hedged their bets on all fronts.

Gold shares many similar greater fool properties. I have strict rebalancing bands I adhere to. I'm not a HODLER for life. It's not the same emotional attachment that proponents of Bitcoin express
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by bitcoininthevp » Wed Dec 30, 2020 2:28 pm

doodle wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:55 pm
Those who understand the technology and monetary system have a much more reasoned approach.
You found a guy in a vox article whose claim is not technical at all. His claim is that mining is centralized and that transactions could be censored. This is not a technical argument and has valid rebuttals: https://www.coindesk.com/no-concentrati ... ak-bitcoin

In terms of monetary experts, Luke Groman, Jeff Snider, and others seem to be favorable to Bitcoin. Of course youll find others (especially ones whose credibility or salary depend on it) that will argue against Bitcoin.
doodle wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:55 pm
As to those hedge funds jumping in I think they are participating in a psychological bet.
This sort of comment seems quite goal-post-moving. Along the lines "But CME would never list BTC futures!", "But no fortune 500 companies would keep their treasury in BTC!", "Youll never see someone like Paul Tudor Jones investing in BTC!", "But those hedge funds are investing billions $$$ in bitcoin for the wrong reasons!" Feels very:
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by dualstow » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:05 pm

bitcoininthevp wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:45 pm
dualstow wrote:
Thu Dec 17, 2020 10:27 am
I think the bitcoin that Marc de Mesel generously gave me on this forum that Reub and i were unable to cash out was worth $2000 when BTC was $10,000, so $4,000 now. What a shame. They want 12 words in a passphrase, and I have 9.
Im not aware of any 9 word seeds. Its possible it was a 12 word seed and we could brute force the remaining 3 words. If its worth your time to do that, message me privately and I can assist.
I will message you later this week, thank you. I saw just one other person on the internet with the same problem. Never had 12 words in the first place. I wish it were more common because there would be more written about it. Talk to you later, thanks.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by doodle » Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:40 pm

I wonder if anyone has considered creating a gold backed digital currency that would allow convertibility into gold while also allowing the transactability of Bitcoin. Seems like gold bugs should be answering the crypto revolution with their own product.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by Smith1776 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:45 pm

There have been many proposed and many created but none have really gained traction. Many have simply cratered or turned out to be scams.

I posted this on the forum many moons ago. But a guy at a restaurant was once trying to sell me on such a cryptocurrency called KaratGold Coin that turned out to be a Ponzi.

https://www.coindesk.com/german-regulat ... operations

The issue with a gold-backed cryptocurrency IMO is that it doesn't inherently solve gold's biggest macroeconomic flaw. That is, in order to support a currency (crypto or not), the gold has to be subject to a degree of centralization. The case of KaratGold Coin illustrates this problem acutely as it turns out there was no gold actually backing the tokens.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by Smith1776 » Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:48 pm

I am coming around to the idea that an effective cryptocurrency doesn't need any backing and is probably better off without it. If there's no backing then there's nothing to steal or misappropriate. Some people shoot back and say then there's no inherent value, and that leads us perilously close to philosophy and metaphysics.

IMO the value of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies is in the network itself (network effect).
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by dualstow » Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:45 am

Smith1776 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:48 pm
IMO the value of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies is in the network itself (network effect).
side note: And perhaps for some, the value of gold is the lack of digitization (or paperization), ie having it in your possession.
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Re: Bitcoin - they coming for you

Post by Smith1776 » Sat Jan 02, 2021 11:00 am

dualstow wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:45 am
Smith1776 wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:48 pm
IMO the value of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies is in the network itself (network effect).
side note: And perhaps for some, the value of gold is the lack of digitization (or paperization), ie having it in your possession.
Wallet MapleGram fo’ life!
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