New Macs With M1 Chips

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New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Smith1776 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:00 am

I'm sure all the technology minded people on the forum are aware of the new Macs that have been announced with Apple silicon. Given how impressive the iPhone and iPad silicon has been -- frequently outperforming laptop and desktop counterparts -- this switch has clearly been a long time coming. Some articles:

https://9to5mac.com/2020/11/11/macbook- ... mark-test/

https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/11/m1 ... benchmark/

https://macdailynews.com/2020/11/10/app ... -natively/

There's even word around these new Macs that even after accounting for emulation overhead, they run intel software faster than intel macs actually do. (At least those intel macs that have similar power envelopes.)

The benchmarks and battery life numbers look seriously impressive. Yes, obviously, we still need more "in the wild" benchmarks and user reviews, but Apple has generally been forthcoming regarding performance and battery life claims.

My current Mac is still too new, so I won't be buying one, but I'm still as excited about these developments as just about anyone else.
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:45 am

Long ago, I used to get excited and know every code name and generation of Intel or AMD chip that came out, when it mattered because computers would still bog down doing certain things.

I am not a 3D state of the art gamer, so I don't know how much main uP clock speed/cores/cache matter anymore vs the GPU, but it has literally been 10-15 years since I even recall wishing something on my computer went faster.

Even boot with an SSD now is a non-issue.

I am surprised anyone gets excited about processors anymore! Maybe it's my age.
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Smith1776 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:00 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:45 am
Long ago, I used to get excited and know every code name and generation of Intel or AMD chip that came out, when it mattered because computers would still bog down doing certain things.

I am not a 3D state of the art gamer, so I don't know how much main uP clock speed/cores/cache matter anymore vs the GPU, but it has literally been 10-15 years since I even recall wishing something on my computer went faster.

Even boot with an SSD now is a non-issue.

I am surprised anyone gets excited about processors anymore! Maybe it's my age.
Ahhh I think we're referring to roughly the same era. I remember when the Athlon 64 and Pentium 4 were top dogs. I would obsessively buy the latest copy of Maximum PC so that I could see the reviews and benchmarks to see which was faster at gaming and video editing. Those were the days...

I remember when the Nvidia 7800 GTX was the fastest GPU around. 256MB of video memory -- woah!! :D
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by sophie » Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:08 pm

Thanks for the assessment Smith!

I'd heard about this, but now I'm really excited to try this out. I had delayed replacing my laptop, but it's now really starting to show its age (it's a 2013). Gaming isn't my issue but I do need to run some intense mathematical software on large datasets. My current laptop just plain can't do it.

On the todolist....along with a ton of other things but hope to order new macbook pro soon. It's only the 13" that has the M1 chip, right? That's the size I want, as it happens.
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Smith1776 » Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:15 pm

sophie wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:08 pm
Thanks for the assessment Smith!

I'd heard about this, but now I'm really excited to try this out. I had delayed replacing my laptop, but it's now really starting to show its age (it's a 2013). Gaming isn't my issue but I do need to run some intense mathematical software on large datasets. My current laptop just plain can't do it.

On the todolist....along with a ton of other things but hope to order new macbook pro soon. It's only the 13" that has the M1 chip, right? That's the size I want, as it happens.
Indeed! The 13" Pro and the Macbook Air both have the M1. The Mac mini also has the new chip as well.

It seems that the 13" Pro runs the M1 at a higher clock speed than the Air, so there should be a marginal performance differential.
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Xan » Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:03 pm

Regardless of the performance or anything else, definitely don't buy an Intel Mac. Those things will be boat anchors very soon as Apple drops support. If they're still selling any they shouldn't.
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by pmward » Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:21 pm

Yeah they look nice. I'll probably wait a couple years to replace my current personal MBP just to let the tech and software cure a bit. This should also help the longevity of the MacBook Pros (at least for those that use them as a Pro), as there has been a major problem in Intel MacBook Pros where the heat the CPU generates causes the battery to warp. At work we all use MBP's and for the last few years each of us has to get our laptop replaced at least once per year because of the battery warping problem. It's crazy how wide spread the issue is. I just had mine swapped out about 2 months ago myself. The ARM CPU's are more efficient and generate less heat, so this should hopefully be a non-issue going forward.
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Hal » Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:36 pm

On the Mac topic. Has anyone tried out the Big Sur OS? From what I understand it can run iOS applications on a Mac.

In a day or so when it downloads, I shall let you know if there are any issues on running it on a 2017 Air. If so we might have to go off and buy a bright new shiny Mac ;)

PS: For Smithy https://books.google.com.au/books?id=bg ... edir_esc=y

Update: Watch prior to installing -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD3J2cv9DRY
Update 2: What a pain. Finally installed after multiple attempts/lockups. No difference in performance.
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by vnatale » Thu Nov 12, 2020 9:23 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 11:45 am
Long ago, I used to get excited and know every code name and generation of Intel or AMD chip that came out, when it mattered because computers would still bog down doing certain things.

I am not a 3D state of the art gamer, so I don't know how much main uP clock speed/cores/cache matter anymore vs the GPU, but it has literally been 10-15 years since I even recall wishing something on my computer went faster.

Even boot with an SSD now is a non-issue.

I am surprised anyone gets excited about processors anymore! Maybe it's my age.
Here is where more memory and a faster processor makes a major difference. Whenever I am either uploading or downloading files in Dropbox. Those tasks consumes incredible resources. I can notice the difference on this i7 / 16 GB computer. It's even more pronounced on an i / 8 GB computer. While dropbox is doing its things it can take other programs forever to do their thing as opposed to immediately when dropbox is not consuming so much computer resource.

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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by dualstow » Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:02 pm

I’m still running High Sierra because I want to continue to use Veracrypt. I know this is still because i could just enrypt files by making a .DMG, but I really like Veracrypt.
Big Sur does look pretty cool, and yes, the “Apple Silicon” offerings are tempting. I may trade in my Mac Mini for a Mac M1ni O0
traveling...
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Smith1776 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:35 pm

Hal wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:36 pm

PS: For Smithy https://books.google.com.au/books?id=bg ... edir_esc=y
I am reliving the good old days!
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Smith1776 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:49 pm

I will probably treat myself to a new MacBook when I graduate and find full-time work in industry. The computer will be an appropriate reward to myself since I'll be using it for dev work anyway. Frustrating homework aside, I have really taken a liking to programming.

I am taking the same approach to the new Playstation and Xbox game consoles. The early units of any new game console tend to have the highest failure rates. The game libraries at the beginning tend to be limited too. I'll wait at least 6 months... maybe even a year.

The one thing that I find a little sad as time passes is the integration of once discrete hardware components into SOCs. A lot of that of course has been driven by the increasing ubiquity of mobile computing. Speccing out all the individual components in a computer was once a very enjoyable pastime. Now the cost efficiency of integrated systems and the need to be mobile has made desktops take an unfortunate backseat.

At least I still have software tinkering!
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Xan » Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:08 pm

I wouldn't recommend it, from a computing freedom perspective:

https://sneak.berlin/20201112/your-computer-isnt-yours/
On modern versions of macOS, you simply can’t power on your computer, launch a text editor or eBook reader, and write or read, without a log of your activity being transmitted and stored.

It turns out that in the current version of the macOS, the OS sends to Apple a hash (unique identifier) of each and every program you run, when you run it. Lots of people didn’t realize this, because it’s silent and invisible and it fails instantly and gracefully when you’re offline, but today the server got really slow and it didn’t hit the fail-fast code path, and everyone’s apps failed to open if they were connected to the internet.
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Smith1776 » Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:11 pm

Xan wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 1:08 pm
I wouldn't recommend it, from a computing freedom perspective:

https://sneak.berlin/20201112/your-computer-isnt-yours/
On modern versions of macOS, you simply can’t power on your computer, launch a text editor or eBook reader, and write or read, without a log of your activity being transmitted and stored.

It turns out that in the current version of the macOS, the OS sends to Apple a hash (unique identifier) of each and every program you run, when you run it. Lots of people didn’t realize this, because it’s silent and invisible and it fails instantly and gracefully when you’re offline, but today the server got really slow and it didn’t hit the fail-fast code path, and everyone’s apps failed to open if they were connected to the internet.
Ah yeah, I saw that being discussed on Reddit. I may have to dust off Linux...

I wonder what Steve Jobs would think about the state of privacy as it relates to Apple these days. His last interview at the D conference before he passed away had him championing privacy.
"Talk is cheap. Show me the code." - Linus Torvalds
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by pmward » Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:37 pm

Smith1776 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:49 pm
I will probably treat myself to a new MacBook when I graduate and find full-time work in industry. The computer will be an appropriate reward to myself since I'll be using it for dev work anyway. Frustrating homework aside, I have really taken a liking to programming.

I am taking the same approach to the new Playstation and Xbox game consoles. The early units of any new game console tend to have the highest failure rates. The game libraries at the beginning tend to be limited too. I'll wait at least 6 months... maybe even a year.

The one thing that I find a little sad as time passes is the integration of once discrete hardware components into SOCs. A lot of that of course has been driven by the increasing ubiquity of mobile computing. Speccing out all the individual components in a computer was once a very enjoyable pastime. Now the cost efficiency of integrated systems and the need to be mobile has made desktops take an unfortunate backseat.
I bought my first MacBook Pro when I was still in college (also a computer science major). One thing I will say, is whatever company you go to work for you will likely be issued a laptop, so you won't really be coding on your personal MacBook. There are security issues with using a personal laptop, so it's quite rare to find a company that will allow that. But having a MacBook is still a fun toy. For daily (or student) use, the new ARM MacBook Air is a pretty sweet value for the money. I'm tempted, but my current MacBook Pro just doesn't need to be replaced yet.

Also, if you do want the joy of building your own computer, it can still be had if you build a gaming PC instead of buying either of those new consoles. You can get all the benefits of Xbox, including all exclusives and GamePass, on a gaming PC. Costs a lot more though...

And yeah, even if you don't use Linux on your own, I do highly recommend you get to know Linux well. I was kind of forced to have to learn Linux in the last few years, with containers, cloud, and serverless programming coming to the forefront. It really pays off to know your way around the differing popular Linux versions via command line really well.
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by vnatale » Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:15 pm

pmward wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:37 pm
Smith1776 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:49 pm
I will probably treat myself to a new MacBook when I graduate and find full-time work in industry. The computer will be an appropriate reward to myself since I'll be using it for dev work anyway. Frustrating homework aside, I have really taken a liking to programming.

I am taking the same approach to the new Playstation and Xbox game consoles. The early units of any new game console tend to have the highest failure rates. The game libraries at the beginning tend to be limited too. I'll wait at least 6 months... maybe even a year.

The one thing that I find a little sad as time passes is the integration of once discrete hardware components into SOCs. A lot of that of course has been driven by the increasing ubiquity of mobile computing. Speccing out all the individual components in a computer was once a very enjoyable pastime. Now the cost efficiency of integrated systems and the need to be mobile has made desktops take an unfortunate backseat.
I bought my first MacBook Pro when I was still in college (also a computer science major). One thing I will say, is whatever company you go to work for you will likely be issued a laptop, so you won't really be coding on your personal MacBook. There are security issues with using a personal laptop, so it's quite rare to find a company that will allow that. But having a MacBook is still a fun toy. For daily (or student) use, the new ARM MacBook Air is a pretty sweet value for the money. I'm tempted, but my current MacBook Pro just doesn't need to be replaced yet.

Also, if you do want the joy of building your own computer, it can still be had if you build a gaming PC instead of buying either of those new consoles. You can get all the benefits of Xbox, including all exclusives and GamePass, on a gaming PC. Costs a lot more though...

And yeah, even if you don't use Linux on your own, I do highly recommend you get to know Linux well. I was kind of forced to have to learn Linux in the last few years, with containers, cloud, and serverless programming coming to the forefront. It really pays off to know your way around the differing popular Linux versions via command line really well.
Curious for those of you with organization issued computers...are they Windows or other?

My organization is all Windows except catering to two individuals who use Apple computers.

Vinny
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Kbg » Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:51 pm

I’ve always stuck with Windows due to a program I use for backtesting. I’ve got way too much of my life in associated code to walk away. What do you guys recommend if I gotta stick with some windows functionality (that needs to stay snappy)?
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Xan » Sat Nov 14, 2020 9:33 pm

Virtualbox works very well for me.
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Mark Leavy » Sat Nov 14, 2020 11:35 pm

Kbg wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:51 pm
I’ve always stuck with Windows due to a program I use for backtesting. I’ve got way too much of my life in associated code to walk away. What do you guys recommend if I gotta stick with some windows functionality (that needs to stay snappy)?
Up until around 2015 I used to run bootcamp for any apps that required windows and it worked extremely well. No experience since then. I'm not sure how the newer non Intel macs would handle it though. That seems like a very big "if".

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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by pmward » Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:09 am

vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 3:15 pm
pmward wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 2:37 pm
Smith1776 wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 12:49 pm
I will probably treat myself to a new MacBook when I graduate and find full-time work in industry. The computer will be an appropriate reward to myself since I'll be using it for dev work anyway. Frustrating homework aside, I have really taken a liking to programming.

I am taking the same approach to the new Playstation and Xbox game consoles. The early units of any new game console tend to have the highest failure rates. The game libraries at the beginning tend to be limited too. I'll wait at least 6 months... maybe even a year.

The one thing that I find a little sad as time passes is the integration of once discrete hardware components into SOCs. A lot of that of course has been driven by the increasing ubiquity of mobile computing. Speccing out all the individual components in a computer was once a very enjoyable pastime. Now the cost efficiency of integrated systems and the need to be mobile has made desktops take an unfortunate backseat.
I bought my first MacBook Pro when I was still in college (also a computer science major). One thing I will say, is whatever company you go to work for you will likely be issued a laptop, so you won't really be coding on your personal MacBook. There are security issues with using a personal laptop, so it's quite rare to find a company that will allow that. But having a MacBook is still a fun toy. For daily (or student) use, the new ARM MacBook Air is a pretty sweet value for the money. I'm tempted, but my current MacBook Pro just doesn't need to be replaced yet.

Also, if you do want the joy of building your own computer, it can still be had if you build a gaming PC instead of buying either of those new consoles. You can get all the benefits of Xbox, including all exclusives and GamePass, on a gaming PC. Costs a lot more though...

And yeah, even if you don't use Linux on your own, I do highly recommend you get to know Linux well. I was kind of forced to have to learn Linux in the last few years, with containers, cloud, and serverless programming coming to the forefront. It really pays off to know your way around the differing popular Linux versions via command line really well.
Curious for those of you with organization issued computers...are they Windows or other?

My organization is all Windows except catering to two individuals who use Apple computers.

Vinny
My work gives us a choice, and pretty much my whole team is on MacBooks. I think we have 2 or 3 people on Windows. I have Docker and Parallels for those times I need virtualization, though these days it's quite rare I need to boot up a Windows VM. Even our .NET Core API's can run on Mac or on a Linux Docker container these days. So since even the Microsoft stack can be fully run on Mac or Linux, there really is no reason any dev needs Windows anymore. Microsoft has done a good job opening up in recent years. I'm not sure if this changes any for the M1 MacBooks though. As long as Docker works though, one can always spin up a lightweight Linux container. We will have to see. And of course all the non-Microsoft languages are all cross platform.
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by pmward » Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:22 am

Kbg wrote:
Sat Nov 14, 2020 4:51 pm
I’ve always stuck with Windows due to a program I use for backtesting. I’ve got way too much of my life in associated code to walk away. What do you guys recommend if I gotta stick with some windows functionality (that needs to stay snappy)?
Docker is very performant, but it's console only, so do you need the GUI or can you run the code through the command line or through API? Running a full on VM (like in Parallels or VMWare) is an option, but it can be slow to run 2 full OS's simultaneously. You also could spin up a Windows cloud machine in either AWS or Azure to get the full Windows GUI, if it's something you can just spin up or down as needed to run your backtesting it's quite cheap to do this and you literally can spin this up to be as powerful as you want.
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Smith1776 » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:45 pm

https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/15/m1 ... benchmark/

Apple Silicon M1 Emulating x86 is Still Faster Than Every Other Mac in Single Core Benchmark

rosetta-2-m1-benchmark-single-core.jpg
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Mark Leavy » Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:54 pm

Okay, Damn it.

I generally upgrade every other year. My mac one year and then my phone the next year.

But this year, I need the new phone for work (ToF) 3D sensor. And I *really* want the new MacAir. The Windows emulation speed clinches it.

Grrrr...
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Smith1776 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:34 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Sun Nov 15, 2020 9:54 pm
Okay, Damn it.

I generally upgrade every other year. My mac one year and then my phone the next year.

But this year, I need the new phone for work (ToF) 3D sensor. And I *really* want the new MacAir. The Windows emulation speed clinches it.

Grrrr...
Hehe happy to oblige!
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Re: New Macs With M1 Chips

Post by Smith1776 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 11:35 am

The excellent Marques Brownlee review of the new M1 m̶o̶r̶t̶a̶r̶ Macbook is now live!


https://youtu.be/f4g2nPY-VZc
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