Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

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Mountaineer
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:29 am

Maddy wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:03 am
sophie wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:29 pm
Interesting sentiment - let's let the favored minorities be the guinea pigs. And nursing home residents. It kind of turns the story upside down, doesn't it? Turns out it's not so much favored treatment of minorities as a repeat of the Tuskegee syphilis study. I have a feeling ethicists are going to have a field day with the handling of the COVID vaccines years after the fact. Too bad they are keeping quiet right now, when their voices are seriously needed.
Is anybody discussing the role of informed consent? How many nursing home residents are even capable of providing it? Does it even matter any more? If (as I suspect) the vaccine will become a prerequisite to admission or retention in any congregate care facility, you've essentially taken away any choice in the matter.

I, too, have noticed the dead cold silence from the bioethics community on this and other pressing issues. For years you could count on Kaplan to weight in on every little development. Don't know what became of him or, for that matter, the professional ethic he represented.
Maybe many ethical issues correlate with the death of the hippocratic oath.
The darkness will always war against the light. And the light must always war against the darkness. You either let the darkness overcome you, or you overcome the darkness. The mission: Whatever darkness, compromise, or ungodly thing still exists in your life, no matter how small, today, root it out. There is no middle ground.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by glennds » Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:35 am

Maddy wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:03 am

Is anybody discussing the role of informed consent? How many nursing home residents are even capable of providing it? Does it even matter any more? If (as I suspect) the vaccine will become a prerequisite to admission or retention in any congregate care facility, you've essentially taken away any choice in the matter.
If a nursing home resident is not capable of providing informed consent, then they must have a designated MPOA and advanced directives that the facility is bound to follow. It's a big deal and very much matters.

As to a vaccine prerequisite for admission, I wonder. I can see where admission screening would include a negative COVID test, just like TB screening that has been done for decades as a condition of admission, but I'm not sure about requiring a vaccine.
All these concerns about being compelled to take the vaccine fly in the face of the doctrine of right to refuse care, which I find hard to imagine.

I think it will come down to refusal to take the vaccine may carry certain sacrifices with it. For example, inability to get a travel visa to visit certain (many?) foreign countries. Maybe private employers will require it. Maybe sports teams or assembly events will require it. Health insurance might cost more.

It's kind of like smoking. It's your right to smoke. But if you do, you will pay more for health insurance, life insurance. You will be limited in the places where you can smoke, etc.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by vnatale » Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:58 am

glennds wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:44 am

vnatale wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:06 pm

Xan wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:42 pm



I highly recommend this absolutely fascinating article (or really transcript, I suppose) discussing how the government attempts to put a dollar value on human life. Primarily it's for purposes of wrongful death lawsuits etc. It includes this bit:

GONZALEZ: Valuing people differently was kind of tried once in 2003. The EPA, under the George W. Bush administration, was considering a new clean air standard. How clean the air should be. And the EPA was like, well, people over age 70 have fewer years to breathe clean air. They should count less. And a lower value on some lives would essentially mean looser clean air standards.

MALONE: The EPA suggested that, perhaps, older people should be worth 37% less money.

STEVENSON: It became known as the senior discount.

GONZALEZ: The senior death discount, actually. People protested. They held up signs that said granny for sale. It did not go over well.



I forgot who the person was....but after 9/11 he was put in charge of doling out the money from the 9/11 victims fund to the family of the victims. He had formulas to decide how much each person's life was worth. Basically how much in future earnings that were lost.


I believe you are thinking of Kenneth Feinberg, who oversaw the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund. He wrote a book called "What is Life Worth?" He has advised or administered other high profile victim funds including Sandy Hook, BP Oil Spill, Aurora CO theater shooting, Penn State Jerry Sandusky sex abuse scandal. It takes a unique kind of person to handle being immersed in that kind of grief.


Thanks. Definitely him. I had no idea of his involvement in those subsequent cases. Also, until I read you writing about it had never heard of the book. Of course, now just bought it. Yet another book purchased after finding out about it in this forum.

I remember an interview with Feinberg - either a video or reading it. He came across as somewhat of a cold person, which, in his line of work above, would probably be a benefit.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by vnatale » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:00 am

Maddy wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:57 am

SomeDude wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:46 pm

As a white i fully support whites being the last to get the gene therapy shot

Uh, I thought you were a "young black man."


So I was NOT dreaming! Two of us remember reading the same thing.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by sophie » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:28 am

Maddy wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:03 am
sophie wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:29 pm
Interesting sentiment - let's let the favored minorities be the guinea pigs. And nursing home residents. It kind of turns the story upside down, doesn't it? Turns out it's not so much favored treatment of minorities as a repeat of the Tuskegee syphilis study. I have a feeling ethicists are going to have a field day with the handling of the COVID vaccines years after the fact. Too bad they are keeping quiet right now, when their voices are seriously needed.
Is anybody discussing the role of informed consent? How many nursing home residents are even capable of providing it? Does it even matter any more? If (as I suspect) the vaccine will become a prerequisite to admission or retention in any congregate care facility, you've essentially taken away any choice in the matter.

I, too, have noticed the dead cold silence from the bioethics community on this and other pressing issues. For years you could count on Kaplan to weight in on every little development. Don't know what became of him or, for that matter, the professional ethic he represented.
There is a provision for emergency use for patients facing a high risk of a catastrophic outcome and with no conventional medical options. I think that standard could reasonably be applied to nursing homes. But, informed consent should still be obtained where possible. Most nursing home patients have medical decision makers or POAs who could provide.

I am not an anti-vaxxer, I readily accept the flu vaccine every year and keep up on the standard ones. And I've argued quite forcefully here for the measles vaccine to be mandatory. But, I am deeply concerned about long-term side effects of the mRNA technique. It's virtually untested, and has some theoretical consequences that are quite serious. If anything, the bar for the first vaccine based on this technique should be much higher than it is for a new vaccine prepared using a conventional approach. And the vaccine hasn't even met these low-ball criteria (i.e. a completed Phase 3 trial). There has been zero discussion of this by the government or in the mainstream media, who only state the obvious falsehood that the vaccine has been "proven safe and effective", and dismiss concerns as being symptomatic of antivaxxers who are against all vaccines.

The FDA initially wanted to offer the vaccine only to high risk groups, via the emergency use authorization. Somehow that changed to offering to everyone and even making it mandatory, regardless of risk. I think the FDA's initial idea was the correct approach. The idea of forcing 90% of the population to take an experimental vaccine frankly horrifies me. It goes against every medical ethics principle from the last 100 years....thousands, if you count Hippocrates. The complete silence from the medical ethics community actually speaks volumes to me. If they really thought this was OK, they'd have said so by now.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by glennds » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:47 am

vnatale wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:58 am
glennds wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:44 am
vnatale wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:06 pm

I forgot who the person was....but after 9/11 he was put in charge of doling out the money from the 9/11 victims fund to the family of the victims. He had formulas to decide how much each person's life was worth. Basically how much in future earnings that were lost.
I believe you are thinking of Kenneth Feinberg, who oversaw the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund. He wrote a book called "What is Life Worth?" He has advised or administered other high profile victim funds including Sandy Hook, BP Oil Spill, Aurora CO theater shooting, Penn State Jerry Sandusky sex abuse scandal. It takes a unique kind of person to handle being immersed in that kind of grief.
Thanks. Definitely him. I had no idea of his involvement in those subsequent cases. Also, until I read you writing about it had never heard of the book. Of course, now just bought it. Yet another book purchased after finding out about it in this forum.

I remember an interview with Feinberg - either a video or reading it. He came across as somewhat of a cold person, which, in his line of work above, would probably be a benefit.
Exactly right. I too saw him on (I think) 60 Minutes and he came off as a forensic robot.
And you're right, maybe that was a benefit, or possibly the result, of being professionally steeped in tragedy most of the time.

Please report back on the book. I hope you enjoy it. I predict the provocative title "What is Life Worth?" will prove to be more about forensic accounting than the ethical questions that spring to mind. IIRC, his whole goal was to remove subjectivity and find calculated measures for conclusions as opposed to personal judgment calls. Either way, I'm sure it will be interesting, especially for an accounting professional like you.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Xan » Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:06 am

SomeDude wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:55 pm
FWIW to some of you, the "vaccine" was developed using tissue from aborted babies.
There's a very informative interview on Issues, Etc about this:
https://issuesetc.org/2020/12/10/3452-t ... -12-10-20/

This interview isn't about convincing anybody of anything, just about giving the facts of the matter from a "care about this issue" perspective.

IIRC, the upshot was that the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines (the mRNA ones) do not involve fetal cells being injected into you, although they might have used such cell lines in the testing/QA process. The Astrazenica and J&J vaccines DO have those fetal cell lines in the actual injection.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by SomeDude » Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:25 pm

Xan wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 11:06 am
SomeDude wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 10:55 pm
FWIW to some of you, the "vaccine" was developed using tissue from aborted babies.
There's a very informative interview on Issues, Etc about this:
https://issuesetc.org/2020/12/10/3452-t ... -12-10-20/

This interview isn't about convincing anybody of anything, just about giving the facts of the matter from a "care about this issue" perspective.

IIRC, the upshot was that the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines (the mRNA ones) do not involve fetal cells being injected into you, although they might have used such cell lines in the testing/QA process. The Astrazenica and J&J vaccines DO have those fetal cell lines in the actual injection.
Thanks for the info Xan.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by sophie » Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:09 pm

Just as a bit of a public service announcement: The Astra Zeneca vaccine, which uses a genetically modified adenovirus and is also the first use of that technology in humans, resulted in transverse myelitis in two subjects. This is a serious autoimmune condition involving focal inflammation in the spinal cord that effectively transects it. It is often progressive and generally results in some degree of permanent paralysis. It's rare enough that it's rather unlikely that this would have happened by chance in two subjects, within days after receiving the vaccine.

I wouldn't take that vaccine if you paid me. And if you have any history of autoimmune disorders, I would most definitely consult with an immunologist before taking it. I'm not sure whether that caution applies to other vaccines using the same technology, but it would seem prudent. I'm rather shocked that the UK approved that vaccine even after those events occurred. And the US is expected to follow suit. None of the articles promoting this vaccine's approval have mentioned those two transverse myelitis cases. Hmm.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Jan 04, 2021 3:34 pm

Thank you Sophie!!!!
The darkness will always war against the light. And the light must always war against the darkness. You either let the darkness overcome you, or you overcome the darkness. The mission: Whatever darkness, compromise, or ungodly thing still exists in your life, no matter how small, today, root it out. There is no middle ground.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by tomfoolery » Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:42 pm

I'm listening to Howard Stern today and he's complaining that it's ridiculous that we've only given 4 million Americans the COVID vaccine by now. And he wonders if we're a third world country?

Because we only vaccinated 4 million people.

10 ten months after a disease was identified.

Not fast enough for Howard Stern.

Reminds me of the Louis CK bit "Everything is Amazing and Nobody is Happy"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUBtKNzoKZ4
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by SomeDude » Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:37 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:42 pm
I'm listening to Howard Stern today and he's complaining that it's ridiculous that we've only given 4 million Americans the COVID vaccine by now. And he wonders if we're a third world country?

Because we only vaccinated 4 million people.

10 ten months after a disease was identified.

Not fast enough for Howard Stern.

Reminds me of the Louis CK bit "Everything is Amazing and Nobody is Happy"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUBtKNzoKZ4

In Stern's defense it looks like the vaccine for Covid was created before covid was a thing:

https://www.businessinsider.com/moderna ... ys-2020-11
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by pugchief » Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:19 am

From anohter thread:
sophie wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:17 am
BTW I heard through the grapevine that FDNY union has advised its members not to take the vaccine, because there are reports of much more severe side effects than the media or the pharmaceuticals/FDA have described. I've been hearing about people being sick for up to 2 weeks. The dept is afraid of too many paramedics being out sick due to mass vaccination. More than half the paramedics have refused the vaccine in consequence.

I haven't heard anything like this from my hospital, but neither have they reported any numbers. I assume a lot have been vaccinated, and I haven't heard about any severe side effects. However, most doctors are well used to working while sick, so they may simply be sucking it up and not saying anything.
It's been almost 48 hours since I 'got jabbed' (wtf? Is that the new medical term?) with the first dose of Moderna. I'm happy to report that other than a sore arm, I have zero issues. Unless you consider a vague desire to cross-dress a problem. :P
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by vnatale » Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:13 am

pugchief wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:19 am


It's been almost 48 hours since I 'got jabbed' (wtf? Is that the new medical term?) with the first dose of Moderna. I'm happy to report that other than a sore arm, I have zero issues. Unless you consider a vague desire to cross-dress a problem. :P


I have never had a flu shot. Have you? If so, how do you compare this to after having had a flu shot?

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by pugchief » Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:27 am

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:13 am
pugchief wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:19 am

It's been almost 48 hours since I 'got jabbed' (wtf? Is that the new medical term?) with the first dose of Moderna. I'm happy to report that other than a sore arm, I have zero issues. Unless you consider a vague desire to cross-dress a problem. :P
I have never had a flu shot. Have you? If so, how do you compare this to after having had a flu shot?
I get a flu shot every year. Prob 30 years running. Same sore arm and nothing more. I did experience mild malaise with the Shingrix jab, but nothing serious.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by SomeDude » Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:50 pm

pugchief wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:19 am
I have zero issues. Unless you consider a vague desire to cross-dress a problem. :P
PG, you considering a run for IL Senator, as a Dem of course?
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by pugchief » Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:56 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 3:50 pm
pugchief wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:19 am
I have zero issues. Unless you consider a vague desire to cross-dress a problem. :P
PG, you considering a run for IL Senator, as a Dem of course?
I would only consider such a thing if they overturned the prohibition of working in IL on Wednesdays.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by vnatale » Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:14 pm

pugchief wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:19 am



It's been almost 48 hours since I 'got jabbed' (wtf? Is that the new medical term?) with the first dose of Moderna. I'm happy to report that other than a sore arm, I have zero issues. Unless you consider a vague desire to cross-dress a problem. :P


You seem to be in the distinct minority in Illinois?

Vinny



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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Tortoise » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:02 pm

Pug is quite a bit older than the average health care worker, so his cost-benefit analysis is different from theirs.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by pugchief » Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:52 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:02 pm
Pug is quite a bit older than the average health care worker, so his cost-benefit analysis is different from theirs.
That is correct, although my son and daughter-in-law, both in their early 30s got 'jabbed', too. They, unfortunately had more of a reaction: extreme discomfort at the injection site and 12 hours of body aches.

I can also tell you that while I was queued for the jab, there were hundreds of people waiting their turn.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Xan » Fri Jan 08, 2021 5:06 pm

pugchief wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:52 pm
Tortoise wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:02 pm
Pug is quite a bit older than the average health care worker, so his cost-benefit analysis is different from theirs.
That is correct, although my son and daughter-in-law, both in their early 30s got 'jabbed', too. They, unfortunately had more of a reaction: extreme discomfort at the injection site and 12 hours of body aches.

I can also tell you that while I was queued for the jab, there were hundreds of people waiting their turn.
I think "jab" is British slang. Maybe it's coming here too now.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:39 pm

Serious question.

Given that I'm not worried about catching Covid, and I don't have any business or PR reasons to get vaccinated, is there any incentive at all for someone like me to get jabbed?

Can I go to Hawaii without quarantining? No
Can I go shopping without a mask? No
Can I fly on a plane without a mask? No
Can I fly to Europe without quarantining? No
Can I eat at a restaurant in NYC? No

So far, I'm not seeing even the slightest incentive. It's like some policies aren't very well thought out...
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:46 pm

Whole company is being offered shots next week. I will take it. Not looking forward to my reaction if it is similar to the flu shot, 24-48 hours of feeling crappy.

We are considered an essential business so that's how we got in line as I understand it.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:03 pm

Scheduled for 2nd injection Saturday. Hope the side effects are reasonable. Will let you know how it goes. 👍🏼
The darkness will always war against the light. And the light must always war against the darkness. You either let the darkness overcome you, or you overcome the darkness. The mission: Whatever darkness, compromise, or ungodly thing still exists in your life, no matter how small, today, root it out. There is no middle ground.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by sophie » Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:00 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 3:39 pm
Serious question.

Given that I'm not worried about catching Covid, and I don't have any business or PR reasons to get vaccinated, is there any incentive at all for someone like me to get jabbed?

Can I go to Hawaii without quarantining? No
Can I go shopping without a mask? No
Can I fly on a plane without a mask? No
Can I fly to Europe without quarantining? No
Can I eat at a restaurant in NYC? No

So far, I'm not seeing even the slightest incentive. It's like some policies aren't very well thought out...
Definitely no incentives to get the vaccine. Add to that list: Can I safely hug grandma? No. The vaccine won't stop you from being infected or infectious, just from getting severe symptoms.

If you're comfortable with your level of risk, you are entitled to make your own decision.

One factor in favor of delaying or deferring: there will likely be an announcement soon that only one shot is fine if you're low risk. The data suggest that one shot has the same efficacy as two, if you know something about significant differences. i.e. 85% and 95% are indistinguishable when the numbers are small. That's good, because the second shot is the one with the more serious adverse effects. And, it would instantly double the vaccine supply.
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