Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

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Tortoise
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Tortoise » Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:23 am

Here’s an example of why I agree with Tom that normalcy probably won’t scale linearly with the number of people vaccinated:
Mike Yoder (@Yoder_Esqq) Tweeted:
I received my negative #COVID19 test results today at 11:24 a.m.

At 11:46 a.m, I was told I couldn’t enter @WholeFoods because I didn’t have a
mask.

I showed them a copy of my test results, and they responded:

“Other people don’t know you don’t have coronavirus.”
https://twitter.com/Yoder_Esqq/status/1 ... 28161?s=20
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:47 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:29 am

When the measurables drop enough that the politicians can declare that they beat it with their good leadership, things will get back to normal. Regardless of how many people have been vaccinated.

(Do I need to say "in my opinion" or "I think"? Should I? The reader should always assume that, don't you think?)


Somehow I have always thought there was a difference because I never, ever say or write, "in my opinion" because who else's opinion could it ever be when I am saying or writing it?

But "I think" is different. I say you think thoughts and you feel emotions. Too many people say, "I feel" when they are expressing a thought. Therefore I sometimes make it a point to use "I think" for emphasis. "I believe" may mean my belief is subject to being questioned.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by sophie » Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:27 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Sat Jan 02, 2021 10:29 pm
I don’t think it will scale linearly due to the network effects and minimum thresholds required to meet certain amount for an event.
Sorry I don't think I was so clear in my earlier posts. I think the signal that politicians will be looking for is zero new infections for an extended period of time. Since the summer (a few months) wasn't enough, I assume 6 months to a year will be required. And, zero new infections means zero positive test results....which will never happen. There is a false positive rate with the tests that's been estimated to be as high as 1%.

So I truly don't know what the endpoint will be for easing lockdowns & restrictions, or what role vaccination will play. Somehow, vaccinating 90% of Americans doesn't seem likely no matter what the time horizon. Vaccinating nursing home residents will definitely provide the most bang for the buck, but that hasn't even started yet.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by l82start » Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:04 pm

Government 2020+ - a BANANA REPUBLIC - if you can keep it

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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Maddy » Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:02 pm

World Health Organization Chief Scientist Soumya Swaminathan: "I don't believe we have the evidence on any of the vaccines to be confident that it's going to prevent people from actually getting the infection and therefore being able to pass it on.”
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by tomfoolery » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:11 pm

sophie wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:27 pm


Vaccinating nursing home residents will definitely provide the most bang for the buck, but that hasn't even started yet.
Certainly not trying to quantify the relative values of different people’s lives, but arguably, all else equal, the life of a child is worth more than the life of an 80 year old in the overall sense.

I wonder what death rates are for nursing homes and assisted living facilities pre-covid?

If 20% of nursing home patients die each year, and maybe 90% of current nursing home patients are expected to die over the next 5 years, does it make sense to prioritize their vaccines?

Possibly, because they are most at risk. And children have virtually no risk.

Also, let’s consider there’s people right now as you read this, with serious issues, waiting in an emergency department waiting room for care, because there’s no beds in the ED, because ED patients who are being admitted upstairs have no bed upstairs, because patients currently admitted but ready for discharge have no nursing home placement.

So the nursing home death actually improves patient care on the margins with how our system is set up.

I don’t want nursing home patients to die and I’m not arguing we shouldn’t prioritize their vaccines.

I just find it fascinating to consider these elements which are ethically frowned upon and generally not discussed.

And we could then say, well the system should have more nursing home capacity, okay great, but a lot of that is paid by Medicaid, so we’d need to raise taxes. Which shifts the burden to pay for it down to the young employed person. So either way, it’s a wealth transfer from the young to the old. Possibly a good worthwhile one, but a wealth transfer all the same.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:30 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:11 pm
sophie wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:27 pm


Vaccinating nursing home residents will definitely provide the most bang for the buck, but that hasn't even started yet.
Certainly not trying to quantify the relative values of different people’s lives, but arguably, all else equal, the life of a child is worth more than the life of an 80 year old in the overall sense.

I wonder what death rates are for nursing homes and assisted living facilities pre-covid?

If 20% of nursing home patients die each year, and maybe 90% of current nursing home patients are expected to die over the next 5 years, does it make sense to prioritize their vaccines?

Possibly, because they are most at risk. And children have virtually no risk.

Also, let’s consider there’s people right now as you read this, with serious issues, waiting in an emergency department waiting room for care, because there’s no beds in the ED, because ED patients who are being admitted upstairs have no bed upstairs, because patients currently admitted but ready for discharge have no nursing home placement.

So the nursing home death actually improves patient care on the margins with how our system is set up.

I don’t want nursing home patients to die and I’m not arguing we shouldn’t prioritize their vaccines.

I just find it fascinating to consider these elements which are ethically frowned upon and generally not discussed.

And we could then say, well the system should have more nursing home capacity, okay great, but a lot of that is paid by Medicaid, so we’d need to raise taxes. Which shifts the burden to pay for it down to the young employed person. So either way, it’s a wealth transfer from the young to the old. Possibly a good worthwhile one, but a wealth transfer all the same.
That is skating on pretty thin ice towards Hitler’s final solution. It rarely if ever works out well when man tries to play God. I certainly am not qualified to say when a life of any age is worth more or less than that of another age.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:45 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:30 pm


That is skating on pretty thin ice towards Hitler’s final solution. It rarely if ever works out well when man tries to play God. I certainly am not qualified to say when a life of any age is worth more or less than that of another age.
That whole thing where they tried to say that blacks (and hispanics? Who knows who they mean when they just say "brown") should get vaccines before white people.. I wonder if that soured any fence-sitters on the idea of state-run healthcare ;D
[It is a] fact beyond question that soldiers' battles, where one side is entrenched and invisible and the other advancing in attack, are things of the past, except in a wooded country or where all preliminary movements are concealed. We had soldiers' battles here, but by fighting them the lesson has been taught which the world will learn.
- James Barnes. 15 years before WW I.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by pugchief » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:52 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:45 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:30 pm


That is skating on pretty thin ice towards Hitler’s final solution. It rarely if ever works out well when man tries to play God. I certainly am not qualified to say when a life of any age is worth more or less than that of another age.
That whole thing where they tried to say that blacks (and hispanics? Who knows who they mean when they just say "brown") should get vaccines before white people.. I wonder if that soured any fence-sitters on the idea of state-run healthcare ;D
Name change for Chicago Public School’s Agassiz Elementary expected to be the first of many
Louis Agassiz was a Swiss American biologist who also promoted eugenics, the belief that some characteristics and races are inferior to others and should be bred out of humanity. “If we were OK to leave that name on the building, how am I as a Black parent or my child as a Black child supposed to really feel that my race or my worth would not come into play in a detrimental fashion?” one mother said.
What makes Black people think that they would be the ones 'bred out of humanity'? Do they believe they are somehow inferior?
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:56 pm

pugchief wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:52 pm
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:45 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:30 pm


That is skating on pretty thin ice towards Hitler’s final solution. It rarely if ever works out well when man tries to play God. I certainly am not qualified to say when a life of any age is worth more or less than that of another age.
That whole thing where they tried to say that blacks (and hispanics? Who knows who they mean when they just say "brown") should get vaccines before white people.. I wonder if that soured any fence-sitters on the idea of state-run healthcare ;D
Name change for Chicago Public School’s Agassiz Elementary expected to be the first of many
Louis Agassiz was a Swiss American biologist who also promoted eugenics, the belief that some characteristics and races are inferior to others and should be bred out of humanity. “If we were OK to leave that name on the building, how am I as a Black parent or my child as a Black child supposed to really feel that my race or my worth would not come into play in a detrimental fashion?” one mother said.
What makes Black people think that they would be the ones 'bred out of humanity'? Do they believe they are somehow inferior?
I'm not seeing how that's related to vaccines but you know what... one more arrow in my Trivia Night quiver!
[It is a] fact beyond question that soldiers' battles, where one side is entrenched and invisible and the other advancing in attack, are things of the past, except in a wooded country or where all preliminary movements are concealed. We had soldiers' battles here, but by fighting them the lesson has been taught which the world will learn.
- James Barnes. 15 years before WW I.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by SomeDude » Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:46 pm

As a white i fully support whites being the last to get the gene therapy shot
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:41 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:11 pm

sophie wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:27 pm


Vaccinating nursing home residents will definitely provide the most bang for the buck, but that hasn't even started yet.



Certainly not trying to quantify the relative values of different people’s lives, but arguably, all else equal, the life of a child is worth more than the life of an 80 year old in the overall sense.

I wonder what death rates are for nursing homes and assisted living facilities pre-covid?

If 20% of nursing home patients die each year, and maybe 90% of current nursing home patients are expected to die over the next 5 years, does it make sense to prioritize their vaccines?

Possibly, because they are most at risk. And children have virtually no risk.

Also, let’s consider there’s people right now as you read this, with serious issues, waiting in an emergency department waiting room for care, because there’s no beds in the ED, because ED patients who are being admitted upstairs have no bed upstairs, because patients currently admitted but ready for discharge have no nursing home placement.

So the nursing home death actually improves patient care on the margins with how our system is set up.

I don’t want nursing home patients to die and I’m not arguing we shouldn’t prioritize their vaccines.

I just find it fascinating to consider these elements which are ethically frowned upon and generally not discussed.

And we could then say, well the system should have more nursing home capacity, okay great, but a lot of that is paid by Medicaid, so we’d need to raise taxes. Which shifts the burden to pay for it down to the young employed person. So either way, it’s a wealth transfer from the young to the old. Possibly a good worthwhile one, but a wealth transfer all the same.


You are sounding quite similar to my accountant's mentality....like let's set up some equations with expected outcomes and do the things that lead to the greatest outcomes.

Unfortunately the vast majority of our fellow citizens are both innumerate AND are thoroughly swayed by emotional arguments, not wanting to listen to the logical arguments.

Somewhat tangential to the Marines (?) (other branches also?) who have a thing about not leaving anyone behind. So instead of leaving that one behind they then risk a lot others to not leave that one behind and will end up with more being left behind. Or, at least that seems to be the way it always seems to play out in the movies that I watch.

You are talking strictly Benefit / Costs ratio. I will generally tend to almost always support that. But my thinking that always seems to be in the distinct minority.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:46 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:30 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:11 pm

sophie wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:27 pm


Vaccinating nursing home residents will definitely provide the most bang for the buck, but that hasn't even started yet.



Certainly not trying to quantify the relative values of different people’s lives, but arguably, all else equal, the life of a child is worth more than the life of an 80 year old in the overall sense.

I wonder what death rates are for nursing homes and assisted living facilities pre-covid?

If 20% of nursing home patients die each year, and maybe 90% of current nursing home patients are expected to die over the next 5 years, does it make sense to prioritize their vaccines?

Possibly, because they are most at risk. And children have virtually no risk.

Also, let’s consider there’s people right now as you read this, with serious issues, waiting in an emergency department waiting room for care, because there’s no beds in the ED, because ED patients who are being admitted upstairs have no bed upstairs, because patients currently admitted but ready for discharge have no nursing home placement.

So the nursing home death actually improves patient care on the margins with how our system is set up.

I don’t want nursing home patients to die and I’m not arguing we shouldn’t prioritize their vaccines.

I just find it fascinating to consider these elements which are ethically frowned upon and generally not discussed.

And we could then say, well the system should have more nursing home capacity, okay great, but a lot of that is paid by Medicaid, so we’d need to raise taxes. Which shifts the burden to pay for it down to the young employed person. So either way, it’s a wealth transfer from the young to the old. Possibly a good worthwhile one, but a wealth transfer all the same.


That is skating on pretty thin ice towards Hitler’s final solution. It rarely if ever works out well when man tries to play God. I certainly am not qualified to say when a life of any age is worth more or less than that of another age.


If it came down to you have one antidote only and your choices are to save the 80 year old (still healthy) or the healthy one year old? Is that playing God? How long would you have to think about this or struggle over the decision?

We play God all the time when we make various decisions that more positively affect or more negatively affect one person or set of people over another. Sometimes there is no best choice. Therefore, we always strive to make the choice that will end up with the most good.

But you, of course, already know all of that.

I'm sure you made innumerable amounts of these decisions regarding family members and coworkers. Now none of them may have been life or death but they could have been life altering for those involved.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:48 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:46 pm

As a white i fully support whites being the last to get the gene therapy shot


Wait!!! Had not you previously told us that you were a young black guy? Or, did I dream reading that one?

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by sophie » Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:29 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:46 pm
As a white i fully support whites being the last to get the gene therapy shot
Interesting sentiment - let's let the favored minorities be the guinea pigs. And nursing home residents. It kind of turns the story upside down, doesn't it? Turns out it's not so much favored treatment of minorities as a repeat of the Tuskegee syphilis study. I have a feeling ethicists are going to have a field day with the handling of the COVID vaccines years after the fact. Too bad they are keeping quiet right now, when their voices are seriously needed.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Xan » Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:42 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:11 pm
sophie wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:27 pm


Vaccinating nursing home residents will definitely provide the most bang for the buck, but that hasn't even started yet.
Certainly not trying to quantify the relative values of different people’s lives, but arguably, all else equal, the life of a child is worth more than the life of an 80 year old in the overall sense.

I wonder what death rates are for nursing homes and assisted living facilities pre-covid?

If 20% of nursing home patients die each year, and maybe 90% of current nursing home patients are expected to die over the next 5 years, does it make sense to prioritize their vaccines?

Possibly, because they are most at risk. And children have virtually no risk.

Also, let’s consider there’s people right now as you read this, with serious issues, waiting in an emergency department waiting room for care, because there’s no beds in the ED, because ED patients who are being admitted upstairs have no bed upstairs, because patients currently admitted but ready for discharge have no nursing home placement.

So the nursing home death actually improves patient care on the margins with how our system is set up.

I don’t want nursing home patients to die and I’m not arguing we shouldn’t prioritize their vaccines.

I just find it fascinating to consider these elements which are ethically frowned upon and generally not discussed.

And we could then say, well the system should have more nursing home capacity, okay great, but a lot of that is paid by Medicaid, so we’d need to raise taxes. Which shifts the burden to pay for it down to the young employed person. So either way, it’s a wealth transfer from the young to the old. Possibly a good worthwhile one, but a wealth transfer all the same.

I highly recommend this absolutely fascinating article (or really transcript, I suppose) discussing how the government attempts to put a dollar value on human life. Primarily it's for purposes of wrongful death lawsuits etc. It includes this bit:
GONZALEZ: Valuing people differently was kind of tried once in 2003. The EPA, under the George W. Bush administration, was considering a new clean air standard. How clean the air should be. And the EPA was like, well, people over age 70 have fewer years to breathe clean air. They should count less. And a lower value on some lives would essentially mean looser clean air standards.

MALONE: The EPA suggested that, perhaps, older people should be worth 37% less money.

STEVENSON: It became known as the senior discount.

GONZALEZ: The senior death discount, actually. People protested. They held up signs that said granny for sale. It did not go over well.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by vnatale » Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:06 pm

Xan wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:42 pm



I highly recommend this absolutely fascinating article (or really transcript, I suppose) discussing how the government attempts to put a dollar value on human life. Primarily it's for purposes of wrongful death lawsuits etc. It includes this bit:

GONZALEZ: Valuing people differently was kind of tried once in 2003. The EPA, under the George W. Bush administration, was considering a new clean air standard. How clean the air should be. And the EPA was like, well, people over age 70 have fewer years to breathe clean air. They should count less. And a lower value on some lives would essentially mean looser clean air standards.

MALONE: The EPA suggested that, perhaps, older people should be worth 37% less money.

STEVENSON: It became known as the senior discount.

GONZALEZ: The senior death discount, actually. People protested. They held up signs that said granny for sale. It did not go over well.



I forgot who the person was....but after 9/11 he was put in charge of doling out the money from the 9/11 victims fund to the family of the victims. He had formulas to decide how much each person's life was worth. Basically how much in future earnings that were lost.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by glennds » Mon Jan 04, 2021 12:44 am

vnatale wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:06 pm
Xan wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:42 pm


I highly recommend this absolutely fascinating article (or really transcript, I suppose) discussing how the government attempts to put a dollar value on human life. Primarily it's for purposes of wrongful death lawsuits etc. It includes this bit:
GONZALEZ: Valuing people differently was kind of tried once in 2003. The EPA, under the George W. Bush administration, was considering a new clean air standard. How clean the air should be. And the EPA was like, well, people over age 70 have fewer years to breathe clean air. They should count less. And a lower value on some lives would essentially mean looser clean air standards.

MALONE: The EPA suggested that, perhaps, older people should be worth 37% less money.

STEVENSON: It became known as the senior discount.

GONZALEZ: The senior death discount, actually. People protested. They held up signs that said granny for sale. It did not go over well.
I forgot who the person was....but after 9/11 he was put in charge of doling out the money from the 9/11 victims fund to the family of the victims. He had formulas to decide how much each person's life was worth. Basically how much in future earnings that were lost.
I believe you are thinking of Kenneth Feinberg, who oversaw the 9/11 Victim Compensation Fund. He wrote a book called "What is Life Worth?" He has advised or administered other high profile victim funds including Sandy Hook, BP Oil Spill, Aurora CO theater shooting, Penn State Jerry Sandusky sex abuse scandal. It takes a unique kind of person to handle being immersed in that kind of grief.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by l82start » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:30 am

sophie wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:29 pm
SomeDude wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:46 pm
As a white i fully support whites being the last to get the gene therapy shot
Interesting sentiment - let's let the favored minorities be the guinea pigs. And nursing home residents. It kind of turns the story upside down, doesn't it? Turns out it's not so much favored treatment of minorities as a repeat of the Tuskegee syphilis study. I have a feeling ethicists are going to have a field day with the handling of the COVID vaccines years after the fact. Too bad they are keeping quiet right now, when their voices are seriously needed.
i don't see this ending well if there is even the slightest problem with the vaccine..

i have no interest in taking one btw..
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Maddy » Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:57 am

SomeDude wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:46 pm
As a white i fully support whites being the last to get the gene therapy shot
Uh, I thought you were a "young black man."
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Maddy » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:03 am

sophie wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:29 pm
Interesting sentiment - let's let the favored minorities be the guinea pigs. And nursing home residents. It kind of turns the story upside down, doesn't it? Turns out it's not so much favored treatment of minorities as a repeat of the Tuskegee syphilis study. I have a feeling ethicists are going to have a field day with the handling of the COVID vaccines years after the fact. Too bad they are keeping quiet right now, when their voices are seriously needed.
Is anybody discussing the role of informed consent? How many nursing home residents are even capable of providing it? Does it even matter any more? If (as I suspect) the vaccine will become a prerequisite to admission or retention in any congregate care facility, you've essentially taken away any choice in the matter.

I, too, have noticed the dead cold silence from the bioethics community on this and other pressing issues. For years you could count on Kaplan to weight in on every little development. Don't know what became of him or, for that matter, the professional ethic he represented.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:11 am

There's a conspiracy to be had from any angle. Take your pick.

Anyone watch this? https://www.cbsnews.com/news/section-23 ... 021-01-03/

Woman/soldier was pegged as the one who brought it to the US. Internet conspiracy theorists made her life hell. Nice.

Seems there's more people in this world who are perfectly fine with handing out death threats to people willy nilly than I would have hoped.

Clip----------

The videos claim Maatje Benassi carried the virus to China on a bicycle. She was invited there as a member of a U.S. military cycling team. Maatje is a Dutch immigrant, American citizen and solider who served in Iraq. In 2019, during an international military Olympics, she crashed in Wuhan, where COVID-19 was discovered two months later. Her collision with the internet began after an innocent article about the race.

Maatje Benassi: And somebody came across it, and it had Wuhan in it, and they took a run with it. "Oh, we got a person."

Scott Pelley: Your name, the name Wuhan, and the rest only takes a lot of imagination.

Maatje Benassi: Correct.

Scott Pelley: What were they saying about you?

Maatje Benassi: First they said I brought it to China. And when I crashed, I spread it. And that I spread it in the hospital which I never was in a hospital. All these lies about vials in my bicycle hidden. And I have no idea.

The absurdity was spelled out, literally, by a hoax peddler named George Webb. He has a following among the "deep state" phony conspiracy crowd.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by SomeDude » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:11 am

Maddy wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 7:57 am
SomeDude wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:46 pm
As a white i fully support whites being the last to get the gene therapy shot
Uh, I thought you were a "young black man."
That was a joke in reference to the previous poster talking about young black men. I'm a middle-aged white.

That might be the first time I've ever described myself as "middle-aged" also.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by SomeDude » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:13 am

Maddy wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:03 am
sophie wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:29 pm
Interesting sentiment - let's let the favored minorities be the guinea pigs. And nursing home residents. It kind of turns the story upside down, doesn't it? Turns out it's not so much favored treatment of minorities as a repeat of the Tuskegee syphilis study. I have a feeling ethicists are going to have a field day with the handling of the COVID vaccines years after the fact. Too bad they are keeping quiet right now, when their voices are seriously needed.
Is anybody discussing the role of informed consent? How many nursing home residents are even capable of providing it? Does it even matter any more? If (as I suspect) the vaccine will become a prerequisite to admission or retention in any congregate care facility, you've essentially taken away any choice in the matter.

I, too, have noticed the dead cold silence from the bioethics community on this and other pressing issues. For years you could count on Kaplan to weight in on every little development. Don't know what became of him or, for that matter, the professional ethic he represented.
If the communist gang seizes power........you can be certain that consent of anything will be a quaint term from the past. A huge swath of the population of the US I am sure thinks this and any other government medical decree should be mandatory and enforced with the threat of violence.

I am certain there are members here who agree with that also.....................
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by l82start » Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:16 am

related..
https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... eaths.html

fall off a ladder, and you died of Covid.
have a heart attack after receiving a vaccine, died of heart attack ...
imagine that..
Government 2020+ - a BANANA REPUBLIC - if you can keep it

Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
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