Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

[Xan]

I read something that said that the Oxford vaccine is the one everyone will likely end up getting. It's a traditional vaccine, not an mRNA one. It isn't quite as far along, but it doesn't require freezing so the logistics are MUCH simpler, both for manufacture and distribution. And it should be much cheaper too.

I read this morning that the Oxford vaccine is only 70% effective unless a second dose is administered. While similar in protocol to Hepatitis B and Shingles vaccines, it would seem that the undertaking of double dosing that many people would make the logistics problematic.

Are the mRNA ones not also doubles?

Certainly the great majority of people who get this end up being fine. But I personally know at least three people who are young (well, -ish), healthy, and have dealt with some really awful things. One told me that she's given up on ever feeling like herself again, in terms of energy level. Another was an avid cyclist who could ride all day and is still huffing and puffing going up a flight of stairs, months later. And another went through several weeks of his brain basically not working: unable to speak, read, write, hold a ping-pong paddle, regulate his own temperature.

[doodle]

I read something that said that the Oxford vaccine is the one everyone will likely end up getting. It's a traditional vaccine, not an mRNA one. It isn't quite as far along, but it doesn't require freezing so the logistics are MUCH simpler, both for manufacture and distribution. And it should be much cheaper too.

I read this morning that the Oxford vaccine is only 70% effective unless a second dose is administered. While similar in protocol to Hepatitis B and Shingles vaccines, it would seem that the undertaking of double dosing that many people would make the logistics problematic.

Are the mRNA ones not also doubles?

Certainly the great majority of people who get this end up being fine. But I personally know at least three people who are young (well, -ish), healthy, and have dealt with some really awful things. One told me that she's given up on ever feeling like herself again, in terms of energy level. Another was an avid cyclist who could ride all day and is still huffing and puffing going up a flight of stairs, months later. And another went through several weeks of his brain basically not working: unable to speak, read, write, hold a ping-pong paddle, regulate his own temperature.

This is what is so frustrating about this whole pandemic. The information and stories range from no symptoms to full life support. What kind of a virus does that? I too have known healthy individuals who experienced nothing...maybe a loss of taste, and another healthy individual who lost 40 pounds and look like they emerged from concentration camp.

[Hal]

For me, the calculation is simple. Risk management 101.

Inoculation via actual coronavirus is by definition more effective than inoculation by dead or weakened virus. Or (I imagine) some mitochondrial RNA fragments. It is unlikely that a vaccine would be more effective than the actual virus at producing antibodies or T cell immunity.

The downside of coronavirus, for me personally, is virtually nil. I have no co-morbidities and my immune system is Strong. Like bull.

The downside of a vaccine, is unknown. It could be nothing, it could be a very tiny likelihood of something horrific. The key is that it is unknown, versus coronavirus, which is pretty well understood at this point and completely benign for someone like me.

I am with Mark on this one.

Back in the 60's I had the "tested" Smallpox vaccine. The cost, about 2 weeks of high fever and delirium. The benefit, if I caught Smallpox I wouldn't die. Don't believe the coronavirus risk is anywhere near the downside of using an untested vaccine.

btw, who needs LSD, had a wild trip legally. Still remember some of the hallucinations to this day

[WiseOne]

Yes I believe all the vaccines require two doses.

The mRNA technique is really cool and I have nothing against it - it's just that this is the first vaccine produced that way, and the bar for approval should be correspondingly higher than for a vaccine produced in the traditional way.

Since the FDA will be approving these without Phase 3 trials, the first several thousand people to get the vaccine will effectively be serving as study subjects in an uncontrolled Phase 3 trial, limited to identifying potential side effects (there will be no data as to efficacy). So I figure that simply delaying a month or two will be enough to let reports of serious side effects (if any) emerge. We will need to watch carefully for these however, since I think we can safely assume that the mainstream media will suppress them, and youtube/twitter/etc will censor them as "misinformation".

Two places I can think of to monitor: The Weston Price Foundation website (take their interpretations with grain of salt but I think they can be relied on for simple factual reporting) and Malcolm Kendrick's blog. The latter is based in the UK so hopefully will escape the Silicon Valley Fahrenheit 451 treatment.

[Incidentally - the "block" feature is very effective! Threads are much more readable and coherent now. Highly recommended on both sides. The trollers are welcome to block me and others who they disagree with, so there will be effectively two parallel forums that won't get in each others' way.]

[glennds]

I read something that said that the Oxford vaccine is the one everyone will likely end up getting. It's a traditional vaccine, not an mRNA one. It isn't quite as far along, but it doesn't require freezing so the logistics are MUCH simpler, both for manufacture and distribution. And it should be much cheaper too.

I read this morning that the Oxford vaccine is only 70% effective unless a second dose is administered. While similar in protocol to Hepatitis B and Shingles vaccines, it would seem that the undertaking of double dosing that many people would make the logistics problematic.

Are the mRNA ones not also doubles?

Certainly the great majority of people who get this end up being fine. But I personally know at least three people who are young (well, -ish), healthy, and have dealt with some really awful things. One told me that she's given up on ever feeling like herself again, in terms of energy level. Another was an avid cyclist who could ride all day and is still huffing and puffing going up a flight of stairs, months later. And another went through several weeks of his brain basically not working: unable to speak, read, write, hold a ping-pong paddle, regulate his own temperature.

Ironically, yesterday's edition of 60 Minutes followed a few cases like you describe. Athletic people, young-ish, all suffering from different types of post-Covid damage, affecting various organ systems. A whole field of post-Covid study including post-mortem pathology studies is happening to better understand the manifestations of the virus.
In the confusing world we live in I wondered if people would respond to the 60 Minutes segment as more fake news or a few cherry picked outlier cases, but hearing your parallel examples makes me more confident that this longer term Covid damage phenomenon is a "thing".

[glennds]

But I don’t plan on being front of the line for the vaccine. I’d volunteer to be infected though. Better and more proven immunity. I’ve been trying my best and if I haven’t been exposed to it yet, then it’s damn near impossible to catch.

Is this acerbic wit, or are have you been genuinely trying to get infected?

[WiseOne]

Cherry picked outlier cases, taken out of context.

Post viral syndromes can occur with virually any virus. They are unfortunately well known x decades. Some classic examples:

Guillian-Barre syndrome (ascending peripheral neuropathy) following enterococcus infections (i.e. common stomach viruses)
Post-polio syndrome (self-explanatory)
ADEM (acute demyelinating encephalomyelitis) - basically, inflammation of large regions of white matter tracts in the brain or spinal cord. Follows viral challenge including vaccines, and is fairly indiscriminate.
Chronic fatigue after Epstein-Barr virus infection (explains a small minority of these cases, before you get too excited).
ARDS (acute respiratory distress syndrome) - etiology unknown, very common in ICU setting and complication of respiratory infections of all types.

Also, upper respiratory viruses can be complicated by bacterial infection (e.g. bronchitis). Many people take several months to recover back to normal.

And, don't overlook the many, many people out there with functional disorders. That is even more common (something like 20-25% of patients seen by neurologists), and the hysteria surrounding COVID is bound to bring that out.

Bad stuff happens to people sometimes....that's just life.

[Mark Leavy]

But I don’t plan on being front of the line for the vaccine. I’d volunteer to be infected though. Better and more proven immunity. I’ve been trying my best and if I haven’t been exposed to it yet, then it’s damn near impossible to catch.

Is this acerbic wit, or are have you been genuinely trying to get infected?

Genuinely trying to get infected. Not hanging around hospitals or anything, but actively traveling to states that allow me to sit next to random strangers at the bar everynight, hang out in crowds on the beach, attending large gatherings where feasible. That sort of thing. If I had to guess, it's very likely that I have been exposed to it at some point or another, but I haven't had any sort of symptoms.

[glennds]

But I don’t plan on being front of the line for the vaccine. I’d volunteer to be infected though. Better and more proven immunity. I’ve been trying my best and if I haven’t been exposed to it yet, then it’s damn near impossible to catch.

Is this acerbic wit, or are have you been genuinely trying to get infected?

Genuinely trying to get infected. Not hanging around hospitals or anything, but actively traveling to states that allow me to sit next to random strangers at the bar everynight, hang out in crowds on the beach, attending large gatherings where feasible. That sort of thing. If I had to guess, it's very likely that I have been exposed to it at some point or another, but I haven't had any sort of symptoms.

Well this combined with your strong-like-bull constitution, reminds me of something that has been on my mind for a while. Disclaimer - I am not an infectious disease expert, so the question may be a simpleton's....
Are there some percentage of people who are just naturally immune or highly immune for all intents and purposes? When there are a group of ten people in room and one infected, shedding person brings in the Covid virus, and five out of the remaining nine get infected, what's the story with the other four? Did a virus molecule just not make it to any of them? Or did it and their immune system just prevented or resisted the infection?
I realize in my example there is no way to definitively know, but I think the question is vitally important.

Postulating that maybe this is the case with you - i.e. you may have been exposed numerous times at numerous bars, but just resisted infection. So it's not that Covid is impossible to catch, it's just difficult for you (and people like you) to catch because well, you're strong-like-bull.

By way of background, I used to get sick every winter season at least once, sometimes more, and then in 2009 I switched to a Primal/Paleo style lifestyle, became more tuned in to adequate sleep, hydration, moderate exercise, sometimes high intensity, etc. In the process I lost quite a bit of body fat, gained some lean muscle. From that point, I think I went maybe 8 or 10 years without getting sick once. So based on my sample group of one, there must be something to immunity differentials among people, and susceptibility to infection being influenced by diet and lifestyle.

A corollary question - have diet or lifestyle differences around the globe correlated to difference in Covid spread and mortality rates?

[glennds]

Thus far only 5% or so of the US population has contracted Covid

Dr. Fauci really ought to read medical journals more often. Studies in Santa Clara, CA and New York State in April and May both showed that positive tests underestimated the number of people who have somehow gained antibody-mediated immunity by a factor of between 20 and 50. A similar observation was made based on the proportion of COVID cases on cruise or military ships. Allowing for easier availability of testing in recent months, you still should count on at least a factor of 10. That would put the proportion of people who are already immune at about half the US population.

The idea that the immunity % of the US population might be that high is thought provoking to say the least.
As I think about it, the subset of known infections is limited to those tested, so a subset indeed if you imagine that there are a large number of asymptomatic people who would never have thought to be tested, or those with mild symptoms that never bothered with the hassle of testing.
I guess there's no way to really know but it is thought provoking because if the % is high, it puts a whole new spin on things. Not to mention that if you're right, there could be a LOT of people walking around unknowingly immune. Imagine that.

[Mark Leavy]

By way of background, I used to get sick every winter season at least once, sometimes more, and then in 2009 I switched to a Primal/Paleo style lifestyle, became more tuned in to adequate sleep, hydration, moderate exercise, sometimes high intensity, etc. In the process I lost quite a bit of body fat, gained some lean muscle. From that point, I think I went maybe 8 or 10 years without getting sick once. So based on my sample group of one, there must be something to immunity differentials among people, and susceptibility to infection being influenced by diet and lifestyle.

All of those factors have a huge impact on your immune system. All in the positive direction. Well done!

[Mark Leavy]

Thus far only 5% or so of the US population has contracted Covid

Dr. Fauci really ought to read medical journals more often. Studies in Santa Clara, CA and New York State in April and May both showed that positive tests underestimated the number of people who have somehow gained antibody-mediated immunity by a factor of between 20 and 50. A similar observation was made based on the proportion of COVID cases on cruise or military ships. Allowing for easier availability of testing in recent months, you still should count on at least a factor of 10. That would put the proportion of people who are already immune at about half the US population.

The idea that the immunity % of the US population might be that high is thought provoking to say the least.
As I think about it, the subset of known infections is limited to those tested, so a subset indeed if you imagine that there are a large number of asymptomatic people who would never have thought to be tested, or those with mild symptoms that never bothered with the hassle of testing.
I guess there's no way to really know but it is thought provoking because if the % is high, it puts a whole new spin on things. Not to mention that if you're right, there could be a LOT of people walking around unknowingly immune. Imagine that.

This is my supposition also.

[Xan]

Mark, have you considered getting the antibody test? I suppose it would be inconclusive if negative, but would be interesting if positive.

[Mark Leavy]

Mark, have you considered getting the antibody test? I suppose it would be inconclusive if negative, but would be interesting if positive.

Around June I got tested for antibodies while passing through Portland. A couple of weeks earlier I had been extra tired for 2 days in a row (which is usually my clue that I may have been exposed to something). The test came up negative. I'll probably get it done again later this year. At the time, there hadn't been much discussion of T-Cell immunity - which is maybe a thing. I'll see if I can get tested for both.

As an aside, I use Quest Diagnostics for any sort of testing I want done. Super easy. Setup the tests and pay on line. Pick a phlebotomist nearby. In and out in 15 minutes. Results by email in a few days.

I just got out of the hotel communal swimming pool.
Mark

[vnatale]

Mark, have you considered getting the antibody test? I suppose it would be inconclusive if negative, but would be interesting if positive.

Around June I got tested for antibodies while passing through Portland. A couple of weeks earlier I had been extra tired for 2 days in a row (which is usually my clue that I may have been exposed to something). The test came up negative. I'll probably get it done again later this year. At the time, there hadn't been much discussion of T-Cell immunity - which is maybe a thing. I'll see if I can get tested for both.

As an aside, I use Quest Diagnostics for any sort of testing I want done. Super easy. Setup the tests and pay on line. Pick a phlebotomist nearby. In and out in 15 minutes. Results by email in a few days.

I just got out of the hotel communal swimming pool.
Mark

I guess this would be considered tangential but I have to ask.

About five years I was shocked to discover that in Massachusetts I am not allowed to order my own blood tests. Any blood tests HAVE to be ordered by a doctor. I'm not sure if it was ever sufficiently explained to me why this is the case.

Since you seem to be both everywhere in this country and world....do you have any idea how widespread this is in the United States? I think I had a choice of driving to either Vermont or New Hampshire or both to get those blood tests done without having to involve a doctor.

Vinny

[Mark Leavy]

About five years I was shocked to discover that in Massachusetts I am not allowed to order my own blood tests. Any blood tests HAVE to be ordered by a doctor. I'm not sure if it was ever sufficiently explained to me why this is the case.

Since you seem to be both everywhere in this country and world....do you have any idea how widespread this is in the United States? I think I had a choice of driving to either Vermont or New Hampshire or both to get those blood tests done without having to involve a doctor.

Vinny

No idea how widespread. I think I've only had draws done in OR, CA and FL.

[vnatale]

About five years I was shocked to discover that in Massachusetts I am not allowed to order my own blood tests. Any blood tests HAVE to be ordered by a doctor. I'm not sure if it was ever sufficiently explained to me why this is the case.

Since you seem to be both everywhere in this country and world....do you have any idea how widespread this is in the United States? I think I had a choice of driving to either Vermont or New Hampshire or both to get those blood tests done without having to involve a doctor.

Vinny

No idea how widespread. I think I've only had draws done in OR, CA and FL.

But obviously in those states you did not have to involve a doctor?

That was the only time I needed one that I wanted to get on my own. But it led to this horrendous set of events which ended up with my doctor firing me as a patient! Quite distressing to be fired by one's doctor. However, in the end, it resulted in me getting an overall better doctor / medical group situation.

Vinny

[Mark Leavy]

No idea how widespread. I think I've only had draws done in OR, CA and FL.

But obviously in those states you did not have to involve a doctor?

Correct. Cash on the barrelhead. Some masked woman takes my blood. The internet unveils.

Pro tip. Never use a male phlebotomist. Those fuckers can’t find a vein to save their lives.

[vnatale]

No idea how widespread. I think I've only had draws done in OR, CA and FL.

But obviously in those states you did not have to involve a doctor?

Correct. Cash on the barrelhead. Some masked woman takes my blood. The internet unveils.

Pro tip. Never use a male phlebotomist. Those fuckers can’t find a vein to save their lives.

I think I've only had females draw blood. Plus, several nurses have complimented me on how nice my veins are.

Vinny

[glennds]

Mark, have you considered getting the antibody test? I suppose it would be inconclusive if negative, but would be interesting if positive.

Around June I got tested for antibodies while passing through Portland. A couple of weeks earlier I had been extra tired for 2 days in a row (which is usually my clue that I may have been exposed to something). The test came up negative. I'll probably get it done again later this year. At the time, there hadn't been much discussion of T-Cell immunity - which is maybe a thing. I'll see if I can get tested for both.

As an aside, I use Quest Diagnostics for any sort of testing I want done. Super easy. Setup the tests and pay on line. Pick a phlebotomist nearby. In and out in 15 minutes. Results by email in a few days.

I just got out of the hotel communal swimming pool.
Mark

I guess this would be considered tangential but I have to ask.

About five years I was shocked to discover that in Massachusetts I am not allowed to order my own blood tests. Any blood tests HAVE to be ordered by a doctor. I'm not sure if it was ever sufficiently explained to me why this is the case.

Since you seem to be both everywhere in this country and world....do you have any idea how widespread this is in the United States? I think I had a choice of driving to either Vermont or New Hampshire or both to get those blood tests done without having to involve a doctor.

Vinny

Vinny, I believe it varies state to state. Here in AZ a statute was passed several years ago that permitted public access to lab without a physician order. Shortly after a few retail type labs set up shop. I've used one, when I got interested in preventive health and wanted to know about c-reactive protein and a bunch of other markers. Their menu was online and you could just walk in or call for a set appointment, your choice.

I don't quite understand why a physician order should be required in any state. I don't believe a lab test can do harm in and of itself, and so long as the lab is licensed and maintaining basic standards, I don't see much risk to protect the public from.
What a waste of health care dollars to go in for a physician visit for no other reason than to obtain a lab order for a test you knew you wanted in the first place.

[glennds]

I could easily see a situation where for some time period, foreign countries will require entry visas which will only be issued if the applicant can provide documentation to prove they've been vaccinated for Covid.

If that becomes the case, it will probably be the most compelling factor that will push me to get the vaccine.

[Mark Leavy]

Yea, the entry requirement is very likely.

For me, I don't have a hard opposition to the vaccine. Just that it doesn't make any sense for me.
But then again, I do plenty of things that don't make sense to me in furtherance of larger goals. So... while I'm not yet ready to go through an extended quarantine and wear a mask for 15 hours to get to the Amalfi coast, I will undergo a vaccine if that is the price.

[Ad Orientem]

To the OP's original post...

Yes.

[Xan]

To the OP's original post...

Yes.

Don't you think you already had it, Ad?

[Ad Orientem]

To the OP's original post...

Yes.

Don't you think you already had it, Ad?

I do. But I was not tested as tests at the time were only available to those who were seriously ill. So I don't know for certain. Also I don't know the duration of any immunity assuming I did have it.