Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

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Mark Leavy
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Mark Leavy » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:08 pm

If the vaccine is just a shot of Covid, then it would be 95% effective.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by I Shrugged » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:09 pm

Is it live vaccine or dead vaccine?
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:21 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:57 pm
Do we even know if you are not infectious during the days following the vaccination?

Before heading overseas for some defense work, the DoD shot me up with everything in their toolkit. The one caveat was the Smallpox vaccine. They wouldn’t give it to anyone with young children at home because of the risk of transmission.
Did you suffer any side effects from anything the DoD gave to you?

I've yet to have a flu shot in my life. Are there any other shots we adults routinely get? I'm not remembering any, which must mean why I also cannot remember any adverse reactions to a shot.

However, when I was a kid for my first four years of elementary school (starting in kindergarten) I seemed to have every allergy under the sun and was quite regularly going for anti-histamine shots. Does that still happen with kids these days?

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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Mark Leavy » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:41 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:21 pm
Did you suffer any side effects from anything the DoD gave to you?
It make me strong. Like bull.

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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by WiseOne » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:57 pm

It's a vaccine to viral antigens developed using a new mRNA technique.

It'll be most interesting to see who steps forward. There are many on both sides of the political spectrum who will hang back. For me, this is the first time I plan to refuse a vaccine if I have that choice (I may not). The word "new" in the first sentence of this post is the reason. It's an unknown risk as no vaccine made with this method has ever been fully tested. It might make sense for people at high risk for COVID complications, but really not for anyone else.

Of course you should be able to get it if you want it, as long as you're properly informed of the risks of taking an experimental & unproven treatment. I wonder if we are about to see longstanding medical ethical principles tossed aside, along with constitutional protections.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Tortoise » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:05 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:57 pm
Of course you should be able to get it if you want it, as long as you're properly informed of the risks of taking an experimental & unproven treatment. I wonder if we are about to see longstanding medical ethical principles tossed aside, along with constitutional protections.
The government didn’t allow individuals to asses their own risk and choose whether to wear a mask and socially distance, so why would it be any different for the choice of whether to take the vaccine?
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Mark Leavy » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:14 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:57 pm
It's a vaccine to viral antigens developed using a new mRNA technique.
Fascinating. I'd love to read up on it if you have any references. But, yeah... I'll be at the back of the line.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Xan » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:26 pm

I read something that said that the Oxford vaccine is the one everyone will likely end up getting. It's a traditional vaccine, not an mRNA one. It isn't quite as far along, but it doesn't require freezing so the logistics are MUCH simpler, both for manufacture and distribution. And it should be much cheaper too.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Mark Leavy » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:59 pm

For me, the calculation is simple. Risk management 101.

Inoculation via actual coronavirus is by definition more effective than inoculation by dead or weakened virus. Or (I imagine) some mitochondrial RNA fragments. It is unlikely that a vaccine would be more effective than the actual virus at producing antibodies or T cell immunity.

The downside of coronavirus, for me personally, is virtually nil. I have no co-morbidities and my immune system is Strong. Like bull.

The downside of a vaccine, is unknown. It could be nothing, it could be a very tiny likelihood of something horrific. The key is that it is unknown, versus coronavirus, which is pretty well understood at this point and completely benign for someone like me.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by SomeDude » Sun Nov 22, 2020 11:31 pm

No chance. Neither will my wife or newborn baby girl. Even if you believe the government stats, covid possess virtually zero risk to healthy people under the age of 65. Looks like it's basically a very weak form of the flu. I know a dozen people who tested positive and none of them felt sick for more than a day if that.

Some mystery vaccine that I've heard targets your RNA or something to start producing proteins (I'm probably screwing this up) sounds a lot riskier.

I think the solution to covid is the same as the flu. Stop testing people. Treat sick people if they need it.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by dualstow » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:22 am

vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:21 pm
Are there any other shots we adults routinely get?

You should ask your doctor, but:

The flu is the only seasonal one I get.
About every ten years, I get a booster for four: tetanus, diptheria?, i forget the others.

Will probably get a shingles vax. If you get it in your eyes, you can go blind. Also, it’s not fun.

The cat gets vaccines all the time. Every year and half year. She loves it.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Xan » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:42 am

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:37 am
Xan wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:26 pm
I read something that said that the Oxford vaccine is the one everyone will likely end up getting. It's a traditional vaccine, not an mRNA one. It isn't quite as far along, but it doesn't require freezing so the logistics are MUCH simpler, both for manufacture and distribution. And it should be much cheaper too.
I read this morning that the Oxford vaccine is only 70% effective unless a second dose is administered. While similar in protocol to Hepatitis B and Shingles vaccines, it would seem that the undertaking of double dosing that many people would make the logistics problematic.
Are the mRNA ones not also doubles?

Certainly the great majority of people who get this end up being fine. But I personally know at least three people who are young (well, -ish), healthy, and have dealt with some really awful things. One told me that she's given up on ever feeling like herself again, in terms of energy level. Another was an avid cyclist who could ride all day and is still huffing and puffing going up a flight of stairs, months later. And another went through several weeks of his brain basically not working: unable to speak, read, write, hold a ping-pong paddle, regulate his own temperature.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by doodle » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:09 am

Xan wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:42 am
MangoMan wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:37 am
Xan wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:26 pm
I read something that said that the Oxford vaccine is the one everyone will likely end up getting. It's a traditional vaccine, not an mRNA one. It isn't quite as far along, but it doesn't require freezing so the logistics are MUCH simpler, both for manufacture and distribution. And it should be much cheaper too.
I read this morning that the Oxford vaccine is only 70% effective unless a second dose is administered. While similar in protocol to Hepatitis B and Shingles vaccines, it would seem that the undertaking of double dosing that many people would make the logistics problematic.
Are the mRNA ones not also doubles?

Certainly the great majority of people who get this end up being fine. But I personally know at least three people who are young (well, -ish), healthy, and have dealt with some really awful things. One told me that she's given up on ever feeling like herself again, in terms of energy level. Another was an avid cyclist who could ride all day and is still huffing and puffing going up a flight of stairs, months later. And another went through several weeks of his brain basically not working: unable to speak, read, write, hold a ping-pong paddle, regulate his own temperature.
This is what is so frustrating about this whole pandemic. The information and stories range from no symptoms to full life support. What kind of a virus does that? I too have known healthy individuals who experienced nothing...maybe a loss of taste, and another healthy individual who lost 40 pounds and look like they emerged from concentration camp.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Hal » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:16 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:59 pm
For me, the calculation is simple. Risk management 101.

Inoculation via actual coronavirus is by definition more effective than inoculation by dead or weakened virus. Or (I imagine) some mitochondrial RNA fragments. It is unlikely that a vaccine would be more effective than the actual virus at producing antibodies or T cell immunity.

The downside of coronavirus, for me personally, is virtually nil. I have no co-morbidities and my immune system is Strong. Like bull.

The downside of a vaccine, is unknown. It could be nothing, it could be a very tiny likelihood of something horrific. The key is that it is unknown, versus coronavirus, which is pretty well understood at this point and completely benign for someone like me.
I am with Mark on this one.

Back in the 60's I had the "tested" Smallpox vaccine. The cost, about 2 weeks of high fever and delirium. The benefit, if I caught Smallpox I wouldn't die. Don't believe the coronavirus risk is anywhere near the downside of using an untested vaccine.

btw, who needs LSD, had a wild trip legally. Still remember some of the hallucinations to this day O0
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by WiseOne » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:42 am

Yes I believe all the vaccines require two doses.

The mRNA technique is really cool and I have nothing against it - it's just that this is the first vaccine produced that way, and the bar for approval should be correspondingly higher than for a vaccine produced in the traditional way.

Since the FDA will be approving these without Phase 3 trials, the first several thousand people to get the vaccine will effectively be serving as study subjects in an uncontrolled Phase 3 trial, limited to identifying potential side effects (there will be no data as to efficacy). So I figure that simply delaying a month or two will be enough to let reports of serious side effects (if any) emerge. We will need to watch carefully for these however, since I think we can safely assume that the mainstream media will suppress them, and youtube/twitter/etc will censor them as "misinformation".

Two places I can think of to monitor: The Weston Price Foundation website (take their interpretations with grain of salt but I think they can be relied on for simple factual reporting) and Malcolm Kendrick's blog. The latter is based in the UK so hopefully will escape the Silicon Valley Fahrenheit 451 treatment.

[Incidentally - the "block" feature is very effective! Threads are much more readable and coherent now. Highly recommended on both sides. The trollers are welcome to block me and others who they disagree with, so there will be effectively two parallel forums that won't get in each others' way.]
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by glennds » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:18 am

Xan wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:42 am
MangoMan wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:37 am
Xan wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:26 pm
I read something that said that the Oxford vaccine is the one everyone will likely end up getting. It's a traditional vaccine, not an mRNA one. It isn't quite as far along, but it doesn't require freezing so the logistics are MUCH simpler, both for manufacture and distribution. And it should be much cheaper too.
I read this morning that the Oxford vaccine is only 70% effective unless a second dose is administered. While similar in protocol to Hepatitis B and Shingles vaccines, it would seem that the undertaking of double dosing that many people would make the logistics problematic.
Are the mRNA ones not also doubles?

Certainly the great majority of people who get this end up being fine. But I personally know at least three people who are young (well, -ish), healthy, and have dealt with some really awful things. One told me that she's given up on ever feeling like herself again, in terms of energy level. Another was an avid cyclist who could ride all day and is still huffing and puffing going up a flight of stairs, months later. And another went through several weeks of his brain basically not working: unable to speak, read, write, hold a ping-pong paddle, regulate his own temperature.
Ironically, yesterday's edition of 60 Minutes followed a few cases like you describe. Athletic people, young-ish, all suffering from different types of post-Covid damage, affecting various organ systems. A whole field of post-Covid study including post-mortem pathology studies is happening to better understand the manifestations of the virus.
In the confusing world we live in I wondered if people would respond to the 60 Minutes segment as more fake news or a few cherry picked outlier cases, but hearing your parallel examples makes me more confident that this longer term Covid damage phenomenon is a "thing".
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by glennds » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:20 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:02 pm

But I don’t plan on being front of the line for the vaccine. I’d volunteer to be infected though. Better and more proven immunity. I’ve been trying my best and if I haven’t been exposed to it yet, then it’s damn near impossible to catch.
Is this acerbic wit, or are have you been genuinely trying to get infected?
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by WiseOne » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:30 am

Cherry picked outlier cases, taken out of context.

Post viral syndromes can occur with virually any virus. They are unfortunately well known x decades. Some classic examples:

Guillian-Barre syndrome (ascending peripheral neuropathy) following enterococcus infections (i.e. common stomach viruses)
Post-polio syndrome (self-explanatory)
ADEM (acute demyelinating encephalomyelitis) - basically, inflammation of large regions of white matter tracts in the brain or spinal cord. Follows viral challenge including vaccines, and is fairly indiscriminate.
Chronic fatigue after Epstein-Barr virus infection (explains a small minority of these cases, before you get too excited).
ARDS (acute respiratory distress syndrome) - etiology unknown, very common in ICU setting and complication of respiratory infections of all types.

Also, upper respiratory viruses can be complicated by bacterial infection (e.g. bronchitis). Many people take several months to recover back to normal.

And, don't overlook the many, many people out there with functional disorders. That is even more common (something like 20-25% of patients seen by neurologists), and the hysteria surrounding COVID is bound to bring that out.

Bad stuff happens to people sometimes....that's just life.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Mark Leavy » Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:57 am

glennds wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:20 am
Mark Leavy wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:02 pm

But I don’t plan on being front of the line for the vaccine. I’d volunteer to be infected though. Better and more proven immunity. I’ve been trying my best and if I haven’t been exposed to it yet, then it’s damn near impossible to catch.
Is this acerbic wit, or are have you been genuinely trying to get infected?
Genuinely trying to get infected. Not hanging around hospitals or anything, but actively traveling to states that allow me to sit next to random strangers at the bar everynight, hang out in crowds on the beach, attending large gatherings where feasible. That sort of thing. If I had to guess, it's very likely that I have been exposed to it at some point or another, but I haven't had any sort of symptoms.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by glennds » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:13 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:57 am
glennds wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 11:20 am
Mark Leavy wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:02 pm

But I don’t plan on being front of the line for the vaccine. I’d volunteer to be infected though. Better and more proven immunity. I’ve been trying my best and if I haven’t been exposed to it yet, then it’s damn near impossible to catch.
Is this acerbic wit, or are have you been genuinely trying to get infected?
Genuinely trying to get infected. Not hanging around hospitals or anything, but actively traveling to states that allow me to sit next to random strangers at the bar everynight, hang out in crowds on the beach, attending large gatherings where feasible. That sort of thing. If I had to guess, it's very likely that I have been exposed to it at some point or another, but I haven't had any sort of symptoms.
Well this combined with your strong-like-bull constitution, reminds me of something that has been on my mind for a while. Disclaimer - I am not an infectious disease expert, so the question may be a simpleton's....
Are there some percentage of people who are just naturally immune or highly immune for all intents and purposes? When there are a group of ten people in room and one infected, shedding person brings in the Covid virus, and five out of the remaining nine get infected, what's the story with the other four? Did a virus molecule just not make it to any of them? Or did it and their immune system just prevented or resisted the infection?
I realize in my example there is no way to definitively know, but I think the question is vitally important.

Postulating that maybe this is the case with you - i.e. you may have been exposed numerous times at numerous bars, but just resisted infection. So it's not that Covid is impossible to catch, it's just difficult for you (and people like you) to catch because well, you're strong-like-bull.

By way of background, I used to get sick every winter season at least once, sometimes more, and then in 2009 I switched to a Primal/Paleo style lifestyle, became more tuned in to adequate sleep, hydration, moderate exercise, sometimes high intensity, etc. In the process I lost quite a bit of body fat, gained some lean muscle. From that point, I think I went maybe 8 or 10 years without getting sick once. So based on my sample group of one, there must be something to immunity differentials among people, and susceptibility to infection being influenced by diet and lifestyle.

A corollary question - have diet or lifestyle differences around the globe correlated to difference in Covid spread and mortality rates?
Last edited by glennds on Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who is planning on getting vaccinated for Covid-19?

Post by glennds » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:22 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:17 pm
glennds wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:07 pm
Thus far only 5% or so of the US population has contracted Covid
Dr. Fauci really ought to read medical journals more often. Studies in Santa Clara, CA and New York State in April and May both showed that positive tests underestimated the number of people who have somehow gained antibody-mediated immunity by a factor of between 20 and 50. A similar observation was made based on the proportion of COVID cases on cruise or military ships. Allowing for easier availability of testing in recent months, you still should count on at least a factor of 10. That would put the proportion of people who are already immune at about half the US population.
The idea that the immunity % of the US population might be that high is thought provoking to say the least.
As I think about it, the subset of known infections is limited to those tested, so a subset indeed if you imagine that there are a large number of asymptomatic people who would never have thought to be tested, or those with mild symptoms that never bothered with the hassle of testing.
I guess there's no way to really know but it is thought provoking because if the % is high, it puts a whole new spin on things. Not to mention that if you're right, there could be a LOT of people walking around unknowingly immune. Imagine that.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Mark Leavy » Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:25 pm

glennds wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:13 pm

By way of background, I used to get sick every winter season at least once, sometimes more, and then in 2009 I switched to a Primal/Paleo style lifestyle, became more tuned in to adequate sleep, hydration, moderate exercise, sometimes high intensity, etc. In the process I lost quite a bit of body fat, gained some lean muscle. From that point, I think I went maybe 8 or 10 years without getting sick once. So based on my sample group of one, there must be something to immunity differentials among people, and susceptibility to infection being influenced by diet and lifestyle.
All of those factors have a huge impact on your immune system. All in the positive direction. Well done!
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Re: Who is planning on getting vaccinated for Covid-19?

Post by Mark Leavy » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:04 pm

glennds wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:22 pm
WiseOne wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:17 pm
glennds wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:07 pm
Thus far only 5% or so of the US population has contracted Covid
Dr. Fauci really ought to read medical journals more often. Studies in Santa Clara, CA and New York State in April and May both showed that positive tests underestimated the number of people who have somehow gained antibody-mediated immunity by a factor of between 20 and 50. A similar observation was made based on the proportion of COVID cases on cruise or military ships. Allowing for easier availability of testing in recent months, you still should count on at least a factor of 10. That would put the proportion of people who are already immune at about half the US population.
The idea that the immunity % of the US population might be that high is thought provoking to say the least.
As I think about it, the subset of known infections is limited to those tested, so a subset indeed if you imagine that there are a large number of asymptomatic people who would never have thought to be tested, or those with mild symptoms that never bothered with the hassle of testing.
I guess there's no way to really know but it is thought provoking because if the % is high, it puts a whole new spin on things. Not to mention that if you're right, there could be a LOT of people walking around unknowingly immune. Imagine that.
This is my supposition also.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Xan » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:24 pm

Mark, have you considered getting the antibody test? I suppose it would be inconclusive if negative, but would be interesting if positive.
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Re: Will you get vaccinated for COVID?

Post by Mark Leavy » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:43 pm

Xan wrote:
Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:24 pm
Mark, have you considered getting the antibody test? I suppose it would be inconclusive if negative, but would be interesting if positive.
Around June I got tested for antibodies while passing through Portland. A couple of weeks earlier I had been extra tired for 2 days in a row (which is usually my clue that I may have been exposed to something). The test came up negative. I'll probably get it done again later this year. At the time, there hadn't been much discussion of T-Cell immunity - which is maybe a thing. I'll see if I can get tested for both.

As an aside, I use Quest Diagnostics for any sort of testing I want done. Super easy. Setup the tests and pay on line. Pick a phlebotomist nearby. In and out in 15 minutes. Results by email in a few days.

I just got out of the hotel communal swimming pool.
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