A different take on sleep structure

[ahhrunforthehills]

I should also mention that because many of these "cold" places were in the Northern Hemisphere, their "nights" could last for 12 hours. In some places, like Norway, the night could be 18 hours. That would certainly make "waking up in the middle of the night" pretty easy to do.

[Kriegsspiel]

It's about what is natural for humans. Biphasic sleep, with a first sleep that's deep and a second sleep with a lot of REM/dreaming, with a waking period in between appears to be normal. Sleeping straight through for 8 hours may actually be ABNORMAL - quite the revelation!

I remember being just as excited when I discovered this years ago. I was equally disappointed when I discovered evidence that indicated it wasn't really true. I will try to dig through my notes and see what I can find.

I seem to recall that the behavior of a 2nd sleep WAS COMMON in only COLD regions of the world... and not because of a natural biological function.

The answer was actually pretty simple... in cold climates they would have had to keep the fire going. I also seem to recall they would generally have to set a primitive "alarm" to wake up (i.e. burning candle eventually drops something to wake you up) assuming the cold didn't wake them up first.

That would make more sense. I never understood why waking up in the middle of the night would have come about in humans, since we can't see in the dark very well. But if we mostly evolved near the equator, then moved towards the poles, waking up during the longer nights makes sense.

FWIW I've attempted several different sleep cycles over the years (Uberman, Everyman, and biphasic) and the only one that feels natural is sleeping at night then taking a siesta some time during the day. Maybe if I was a hunter gatherer I'd take more naps.

[ahhrunforthehills]

It's about what is natural for humans. Biphasic sleep, with a first sleep that's deep and a second sleep with a lot of REM/dreaming, with a waking period in between appears to be normal. Sleeping straight through for 8 hours may actually be ABNORMAL - quite the revelation!

I remember being just as excited when I discovered this years ago. I was equally disappointed when I discovered evidence that indicated it wasn't really true. I will try to dig through my notes and see what I can find.

I seem to recall that the behavior of a 2nd sleep WAS COMMON in only COLD regions of the world... and not because of a natural biological function.

The answer was actually pretty simple... in cold climates they would have had to keep the fire going. I also seem to recall they would generally have to set a primitive "alarm" to wake up (i.e. burning candle eventually drops something to wake you up) assuming the cold didn't wake them up first.

That would make more sense. I never understood why waking up in the middle of the night would have come about in humans, since we can't see in the dark very well. But if we mostly evolved near the equator, then moved towards the poles, waking up during the longer nights makes sense.

FWIW I've attempted several different sleep cycles over the years (Uberman, Everyman, and biphasic) and the only one that feels natural is sleeping at night then taking a siesta some time during the day. Maybe if I was a hunter gatherer I'd take more naps.

haha... yeah. My alarms were always really crazy.

I also always found it weird how most people would give you a disgusted look when you told them that you were trying to cut sleep out of your life. I never realized how much the masses really love their sleep.

[vnatale]

Just came across this on the a book on the Houston Astros...


He graduated from Davis and went on to earn two master’s degrees, in operations research and cognitive psychology, from San Jose State. He took a job at Lockheed Martin, where he helped launch satellites into orbit. Then he performed research for NASA’s Fatigue Countermeasures Group, where, among other things, he revealed the relative uselessness of napping. Even though tired subjects believed that naps fully restored their ability to perform, that turned out to be empirically untrue unless they had gone through a full night’s sleep cycle.

Sig was initially inspired to undertake that study not by astronauts, but by a different type of American hero: baseball players. He had wondered how the performance of major leaguers from the East Coast was affected when they traveled to play in different time zones, interrupting their circadian rhythms. In fact, the entirety of Sig’s mathematically driven career had stemmed from his passion for our most mathematically driven sport.



Two paragraphs prior stated:

This, to Sig, illustrated the limitations of human judgment. “Just because it feels right,” he told himself, “doesn’t mean it is right.” Human beings tended to trust the combination of experience, intuition, and emotion that comprised their gut. Their gut certainly had value. Sometimes their gut was wrong.

Vinny

[WiseOne]

Interesting, ahhrun.

I'm still reading through the book on the historical references to sleep. So far, the author has cited references to biphasic sleep in ancient Rome and Greece (including references in Homer's Odyssey). This is still Northern hemisphere but quite warm climates, and certainly lacking the long winter nights you're describing.

Biphasic sleep is working very well for me, and the Western standard of 7-8 hours uninterrupted sleep is simply not possible for me anymore.

[boglerdude]

Whatever works for you. Chase a gazelle all day and you'll be out for 8 hours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mu780uB7mI

[WiseOne]

Read more of the book "At Days Close" last night. The biphasic sleep pattern has been studied in African tribes. So much for the idea that it's a northern latitude thing. Or related to a lot of physical activity.

I sleep the same regardless of my level of activity. I routinely walk several miles a day, e.g. recently I carried my 15 lb cat home from the vet on a 2.5 mile, hilly walk because it was nice out. But there are also days where I end up working from home all day and never venture out. Doesn't seem to make any difference.

[Kbg]

What’s the lowdown on melatonin health wise ? Sleep issues with age are an issue in my family and I’m there. I usually get 4-5 in and wake up like every one else is reporting. I find melatonin, ear plugs and breathing works great. I still wake up but I can go back to sleep very easy by just focusing on listening to my breathing. Funny story, I read up on breathing techniques tried a bunch and realized the complexity made my mind race. So now it’s a simple in breath “1” during the exhale, over and over.

Maybe melatonin is a placebo for me, but it does seem to keep me foggy enough to go back to sleep easier. I do feel I have more minor headaches in the morning though which is a reported effect cured by caffeine lol.

[Kriegsspiel]

Maybe melatonin is a placebo for me, but it does seem to keep me foggy enough to go back to sleep easier. I do feel I have more minor headaches in the morning though which is a reported effect cured by caffeine lol.

Better living through chemicals

[vnatale]

Thought not sleep related....this is a health related response....

Yesterday saw this woman on C-Span's Book TV talking about her latest book...

The XX Brain: The Groundbreaking Science Empowering Women to Maximize Cognitive Health and Prevent Alzheimer's Disease

https://www.amazon.com/The-XX-Brain-The ... l_huc_item

She held my interest while she was being interviewed. However, not totally applicable to me since I am not a female. But she did mention her prior book:

Brain Food: The Surprising Science of Eating for Cognitive Power

https://www.amazon.com/Brain-Food-The-S ... l_huc_item

I did buy it last night and have been reading it tonight.

She seems to have the credentials to put credence into what she writes:

I got my PhD in neuroscience and nuclear medicine to focus on the genetic aspects of the disease, motivated in part by seeing its devastating effects on my immediate family. My work for the last fifteen years has been focused on the early detection of Alzheimer’s. Specifically, in my research I use brain imaging techniques, such as magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and positron emission tomography (PET), to look at people’s brains in relationship to their genetic backgrounds, and in doing so, learn about their likelihood of developing disease.

This work led me to direct the Family History of Alzheimer’s research program at the NYU School of Medicine back in 2009. The program focuses on the children and family members of Alzheimer’s patients. Everyone there has broadly the same concern: “Am I at risk for Alzheimer’s and what can I do to make sure I don’t get it?”

Little by little, it became clear that I wasn’t just far from home. I was also far from the original theses about the genetic aspects of dementia. In fact, it turns out that the role of genetics in Alzheimer’s, and dementia in general, is not as major as we previously thought. While some patients carry aggressive genetic mutations that cause dementia, for the vast majority of the population, risk is influenced by a variety of medical and lifestyle factors—including a person’s diet. When my research revealed how important, and how oddly neglected, diet and nutrition had been in the field, I went back to school and completed a third degree in integrative nutrition. I drew upon that and other work to found the Nutrition & Brain Fitness Lab at NYU, with the goal of identifying lifestyle factors that support the brain’s health, safeguarding it against dementia. A few years later, I initiated the Brain Nutrition coursework and began teaching at the NYU Steinhardt School’s Department of Nutrition and Food Studies. Around the same time, I moved to Weill Cornell Medical College, where I have the honor of serving as the Associate Director of the first Alzheimer’s Prevention Clinic in the country. The clinic’s innovative approach includes pharmaceutical as well as behavioral interventions aimed at improving both medical status and lifestyle choices in an Alzheimer’s-preventative way. Diet and nutrition are a big part of the practice. Altogether, this work has led me to dive headfirst into the complex relationship between our brains and the foods we eat, and to educate the public as to how to eat healthfully for their brains.

Reading the following just caused me to make my first ever Walmart purchase--a ton of Aloe Vera juice!

In addition to drinking plenty of water (and coconut water when I need it), I rely on a favorite trick: aloe vera juice. Aloe juice is Nature’s own first aid—naturally anti-bacterial, anti-viral, and anti-fungal, this healthful juice contains about 99 percent water and over two hundred active components from vitamins and minerals to amino acids, enzymes, and even fatty acids. Thanks to its well-established properties, drinking aloe juice is a great way to soothe and hydrate all your organs, reduce inflammation, and get the brain ready to spring into action, from the inside out.

Vinny

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[vnatale]

Now this also from the book IS sleep related!

Vinny


Here’s another trick. Research has shown that eating carbohydrates with or immediately after tryptophan-rich foods helps increase its absorption, thereby increasing serotonin production. This observation is at the heart of many nutritionists’ recommendations to eat some carbs for dinner to promote tryptophan absorption and facilitate sleep. When I was little, my mamma would make me a cup of warm milk with honey before bed to help me fall asleep. Little did she know that this simple practice helps tryptophan get through to the brain, boosting serotonin production and, therefore, sleep.

[Mark Leavy]

In addition to drinking plenty of water (and coconut water when I need it), I rely on a favorite trick: aloe vera juice. Aloe juice is Nature’s own first aid—naturally anti-bacterial, anti-viral, and anti-fungal, this healthful juice contains about 99 percent water and over two hundred active components from vitamins and minerals to amino acids, enzymes, and even fatty acids. Thanks to its well-established properties, drinking aloe juice is a great way to soothe and hydrate all your organs, reduce inflammation, and get the brain ready to spring into action, from the inside out.

Vinny

cover.jpg

This is snake oil, Vinny.

[Mark Leavy]

Now this also from the book IS sleep related!

Vinny


Here’s another trick. Research has shown that eating carbohydrates with or immediately after tryptophan-rich foods helps increase its absorption, thereby increasing serotonin production. This observation is at the heart of many nutritionists’ recommendations to eat some carbs for dinner to promote tryptophan absorption and facilitate sleep. When I was little, my mamma would make me a cup of warm milk with honey before bed to help me fall asleep. Little did she know that this simple practice helps tryptophan get through to the brain, boosting serotonin production and, therefore, sleep.

This will work. But it's not the way you want to go.
Better to pair the tryptophan with high glycine foods. Some eggs and collagen will knock you right out.