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Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:21 pm
by Kbg
Personally I think the government per se isn’t the problem, but rather the two dominant political parties who have rigged the system for their extreme wings.

Thoughts/counterpoints?

Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:17 pm
by PrimalToker
Kbg wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:21 pm
Personally I think the government per se isn’t the problem, but rather the two dominant political parties who have rigged the system for their extreme wings.

Thoughts/counterpoints?
What did those dominant political parties use to rig it for them? Government.
The government is the problem. Anything that has a non market monopoly will always be a negative to society. If there was no government for these people to get control of and rig in their favor the damage they cause would be limited to what they could get control of which would be much smaller, and therefore less damaging to society.

Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:54 am
by boglerdude
Governments have and will always be a thing. The smaller the better but how

Some low hanging fruit is term limits and ranked choice voting https://www.fairvote.org/rcv

Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:17 am
by Hal
Well..... I would say lack of knowledge is the problem.

Both Government and Political Parties consist of people. I suspect that many people may be indoctrinated, so regardless of the "structure" of Government/Parties, educated decisions may not be able to be made.

Just happened to stumble across this clip and it made me remember my "education" decades ago. No idea what it's like now, but the majority of teachers were left wing and espoused their ideology as fact. Hilariously, economics was taught by a teacher who stated he was a communist ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4oYiQ8JUj0

PS: I remember a German man who had been "educated" during the Nazi reign. Up till the time he passed away, he still considered considered killing Jews as "We were just cleaning up the place."

Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:22 am
by tomfoolery
The problem is government power which is exacerbated by the two party system.

The smaller and less powerful the government, the less opportunity for bribery and collusion exist. If we didn’t provide billions or maybe trillions of dollars in foreign aid each year, then a foreign government couldn’t influence our government by say, hiring a drug addict son of a politician for a $2M a year job where half gets kicked back up to the big man.

If we had a small government, that didn’t provide corporate bailouts, and didn’t regulate free markets, then corporations would have nothing to benefit from lobbying Congress.

The problem is the more the government can do, the more the opportunity for winners and losers exist as a result of the government machine, the more money will go into lobbying to become the recipient of that benefit, and the larger the wealth divide will become.

Where is the zip code with the most expensive houses in the US? Is it in NYC near the financial district, the hub of the entire world for all financial activity? Nope. Is it Silicon Valley, the hub of all tech in the world? Nope. Is it Los Angeles, the hub of global entertainment? Nope. It’s in northern Virginia, near Washington DC.

Which is quite odd, given our federal politicians have salaries of around $100k a year, you’d think financial superstars, tech superstars, or Hollywood actors would make more money and afford nicer houses than a $100k per year congressmen and the lobbyists who visit them daily and live down the street.

The two party system exacerbates this by divided the country and distracting us, like a magician waving one hand while the other pulls a rabbit from his hat, except the rabbit is the wealth of our nation. The two party system also prevents opposition from entering with different ideas, like small government.

Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:56 am
by Kriegsspiel
Platonic philosopher-kings could probably run a bad system well, but I think it's better to bet on fallible people and give them a less-corruptible government to run. I believe that was the thought process of the founders.

Recently we seem to be in an ongoing perfect storm where both the government and the people running it are both sub-par. Or above-par, if you know how golf works.

Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:51 am
by Xan
It seems that the system of checks and balances, among the three branches of the federal government and with the states, is largely broken by political parties. The parties will check each other as they can (on many issues, anyway), but that leaves us with just one check rather than the many that were designed.

Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:35 am
by I Shrugged
The enormity of the federal government is the main problem.

Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:38 am
by Xan
I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:35 am
The enormity of the federal government is the main problem.
What would you say has caused that? Is it the natural tendency of power to flow to the top?

Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:46 am
by I Shrugged
Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:38 am
I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:35 am
The enormity of the federal government is the main problem.
What would you say has caused that? Is it the natural tendency of power to flow to the top?
Direct democracy and the ability to get elected by catering to groups. Combined with Parkinson’s Law I suppose.

Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:13 am
by vnatale
Kbg wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:21 pm
Personally I think the government per se isn’t the problem, but rather the two dominant political parties who have rigged the system for their extreme wings.

Thoughts/counterpoints?
I have always been a firm believer in this quote:

In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve. It was Joseph de Maistre who wrote in 1811 "Every nation gets the government it deserves."


Everyone says they want to vote out all the incumbents. Except their own. Because their incumbents bring them what they want.

Vinny

Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:14 am
by vnatale
boglerdude wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:54 am
Governments have and will always be a thing. The smaller the better but how

Some low hanging fruit is term limits and ranked choice voting https://www.fairvote.org/rcv
Ranked choice voting a ballot question in Massachusetts. I predict it passes.

Vinny