Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

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boglerdude
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by boglerdude » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:37 pm

"There are FAR stricter rules around how political parties can spend money in other countries; During the campaign for the UK’s 2017 general election, political parties, candidates, and non-party campaigners spent around £40 million in total. In the 2016 US election, presidential candidates, Senate and House candidates, political parties, and outside interest groups spent about $6.5 billion trying to influence federal elections."
https://www.reddit.com/r/Ask_Politics/c ... g/fg2nqq2/

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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by vnatale » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:57 pm

boglerdude wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:37 pm
"There are FAR stricter rules around how political parties can spend money in other countries; During the campaign for the UK’s 2017 general election, political parties, candidates, and non-party campaigners spent around £40 million in total. In the 2016 US election, presidential candidates, Senate and House candidates, political parties, and outside interest groups spent about $6.5 billion trying to influence federal elections."
https://www.reddit.com/r/Ask_Politics/c ... g/fg2nqq2/

Also the Revolving Door
Have any of you ever contributed money to a political campaign?

I never have and never will.

I find the amounts of money spent to be obscene with messages being simple and directed to the lowest common denominator.

In my ideal world political campaigns would be confined to a web site wherein each politician stated their positions. Extremely low costs campaigns! Of course the electorate would refuse to be informed by actually reading rather than watching TV so this is doomed from the start.

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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Kbg » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:18 am

I was on an exchange program where I got to spend two seriously difficult weeks in Paris learning about the French government and it’s approach to national security. A couple of sessions were like basic French Government 101 for us ignorant Americans.

One thing they told us about was how they do national elections...I forget the exact details so undoubtedly I’ve got some details wrong but the thrust is correct.

100% publicly financed

Something like a 3 month first round to narrow down the field (sorta primaryish but not really a primary)

Something like a 1 month final round with 2-3 candidates, done.

One of the French participants asked...how can you stand 1-2 years of presidential campaigning, doesn’t it drive you crazy?

Answer...from the US side...yes.

Personally I’d be totally on board with the French approach.

And the Paris comment was tongue in cheek...I get why Paris is considered one of the great world cities. It was an awesome two weeks.
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by boglerdude » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:19 am

Why do they allow so much immigration. Or has that actually been a net good for the country
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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:59 am

Are you talking about France or the US?
I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. Who knows whether that person will be wise or foolish? Yet they will have control over all the fruit of my toil into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. . . Nothing is better for a man than to eat and drink and enjoy his work.
- Ecclesiastes
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Kbg » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:03 am

boglerdude wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:19 am
Why do they allow so much immigration. Or has that actually been a net good for the country
It's a pretty controversial thing when it comes to Islamic immigration. The French are hyper separation of church and state. Hardcore secular in fact. IIRC there isn't a ton of legal immigration but there are special exceptions for former colonies. I found the French way less race oriented but they demand conformity to French ways and beliefs.

To be blunt, most of the European countries are in population decline vis-a-vis their historical populations and they are figuring out how to deal with that fact. You can allow immigration or turn into Japan.
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Kbg » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:03 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:59 am
Are you talking about France or the US?
Not tracking
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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:09 am

Two books I found worthwhile were Reflections On The Revolution In Europe by Caldwell (2009) and The Strange Death Of Europe by Murray (2017).
I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. Who knows whether that person will be wise or foolish? Yet they will have control over all the fruit of my toil into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. . . Nothing is better for a man than to eat and drink and enjoy his work.
- Ecclesiastes
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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:10 am

Kbg wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:03 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:59 am
Are you talking about France or the US?
Not tracking
Boglerdude, not you.
I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. Who knows whether that person will be wise or foolish? Yet they will have control over all the fruit of my toil into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. . . Nothing is better for a man than to eat and drink and enjoy his work.
- Ecclesiastes
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by glennds » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:25 am

Kbg wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:18 am
I was on an exchange program where I got to spend two seriously difficult weeks in Paris learning about the French government and it’s approach to national security. A couple of sessions were like basic French Government 101 for us ignorant Americans.

One thing they told us about was how they do national elections...I forget the exact details so undoubtedly I’ve got some details wrong but the thrust is correct.

100% publicly financed

Something like a 3 month first round to narrow down the field (sorta primaryish but not really a primary)

Something like a 1 month final round with 2-3 candidates, done.

One of the French participants asked...how can you stand 1-2 years of presidential campaigning, doesn’t it drive you crazy?

Answer...from the US side...yes.

Personally I’d be totally on board with the French approach.

And the Paris comment was tongue in cheek...I get why Paris is considered one of the great world cities. It was an awesome two weeks.
Doesn't the French system also involve multiple rounds, in part to mitigate shock surprises like Brexit (or maybe Trump 2016)?
The idea being that in the second round more people are spurred to vote, or maybe some sober up for the second vote after getting an anger vote out of their system.
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by doodle » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:05 am

Kbg wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:03 am
boglerdude wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:19 am
Why do they allow so much immigration. Or has that actually been a net good for the country
It's a pretty controversial thing when it comes to Islamic immigration. The French are hyper separation of church and state. Hardcore secular in fact. IIRC there isn't a ton of legal immigration but there are special exceptions for former colonies. I found the French way less race oriented but they demand conformity to French ways and beliefs.

To be blunt, most of the European countries are in population decline vis-a-vis their historical populations and they are figuring out how to deal with that fact. You can allow immigration or turn into Japan.
Why is turning into Japan such a bad thing? Everyone always used them as an example of what we don't want to become...it doesn't seem so bad over there to me.
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by vnatale » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:33 am

doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:05 am
Kbg wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:03 am
boglerdude wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:19 am
Why do they allow so much immigration. Or has that actually been a net good for the country
It's a pretty controversial thing when it comes to Islamic immigration. The French are hyper separation of church and state. Hardcore secular in fact. IIRC there isn't a ton of legal immigration but there are special exceptions for former colonies. I found the French way less race oriented but they demand conformity to French ways and beliefs.

To be blunt, most of the European countries are in population decline vis-a-vis their historical populations and they are figuring out how to deal with that fact. You can allow immigration or turn into Japan.
Why is turning into Japan such a bad thing? Everyone always used them as an example of what we don't want to become...it doesn't seem so bad over there to me.
I believe it was in response to their having an aging population and not enough younger people to be able to financially support the elderly in their retirement?

Vinny
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