Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

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Kbg
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Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Kbg » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:21 pm

Personally I think the government per se isn’t the problem, but rather the two dominant political parties who have rigged the system for their extreme wings.

Thoughts/counterpoints?
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by PrimalToker » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:17 pm

Kbg wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:21 pm
Personally I think the government per se isn’t the problem, but rather the two dominant political parties who have rigged the system for their extreme wings.

Thoughts/counterpoints?
What did those dominant political parties use to rig it for them? Government.
The government is the problem. Anything that has a non market monopoly will always be a negative to society. If there was no government for these people to get control of and rig in their favor the damage they cause would be limited to what they could get control of which would be much smaller, and therefore less damaging to society.
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by boglerdude » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:54 am

Governments have and will always be a thing. The smaller the better but how

Some low hanging fruit is term limits and ranked choice voting https://www.fairvote.org/rcv
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Hal » Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:17 am

Well..... I would say lack of knowledge is the problem.

Both Government and Political Parties consist of people. I suspect that many people may be indoctrinated, so regardless of the "structure" of Government/Parties, educated decisions may not be able to be made.

Just happened to stumble across this clip and it made me remember my "education" decades ago. No idea what it's like now, but the majority of teachers were left wing and espoused their ideology as fact. Hilariously, economics was taught by a teacher who stated he was a communist ;D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4oYiQ8JUj0

PS: I remember a German man who had been "educated" during the Nazi reign. Up till the time he passed away, he still considered considered killing Jews as "We were just cleaning up the place."
Last edited by Hal on Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by tomfoolery » Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:22 am

The problem is government power which is exacerbated by the two party system.

The smaller and less powerful the government, the less opportunity for bribery and collusion exist. If we didn’t provide billions or maybe trillions of dollars in foreign aid each year, then a foreign government couldn’t influence our government by say, hiring a drug addict son of a politician for a $2M a year job where half gets kicked back up to the big man.

If we had a small government, that didn’t provide corporate bailouts, and didn’t regulate free markets, then corporations would have nothing to benefit from lobbying Congress.

The problem is the more the government can do, the more the opportunity for winners and losers exist as a result of the government machine, the more money will go into lobbying to become the recipient of that benefit, and the larger the wealth divide will become.

Where is the zip code with the most expensive houses in the US? Is it in NYC near the financial district, the hub of the entire world for all financial activity? Nope. Is it Silicon Valley, the hub of all tech in the world? Nope. Is it Los Angeles, the hub of global entertainment? Nope. It’s in northern Virginia, near Washington DC.

Which is quite odd, given our federal politicians have salaries of around $100k a year, you’d think financial superstars, tech superstars, or Hollywood actors would make more money and afford nicer houses than a $100k per year congressmen and the lobbyists who visit them daily and live down the street.

The two party system exacerbates this by divided the country and distracting us, like a magician waving one hand while the other pulls a rabbit from his hat, except the rabbit is the wealth of our nation. The two party system also prevents opposition from entering with different ideas, like small government.
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:56 am

Platonic philosopher-kings could probably run a bad system well, but I think it's better to bet on fallible people and give them a less-corruptible government to run. I believe that was the thought process of the founders.

Recently we seem to be in an ongoing perfect storm where both the government and the people running it are both sub-par. Or above-par, if you know how golf works.
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Xan » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:51 am

It seems that the system of checks and balances, among the three branches of the federal government and with the states, is largely broken by political parties. The parties will check each other as they can (on many issues, anyway), but that leaves us with just one check rather than the many that were designed.
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:35 am

The enormity of the federal government is the main problem.
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Xan » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:38 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:35 am
The enormity of the federal government is the main problem.
What would you say has caused that? Is it the natural tendency of power to flow to the top?
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:46 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:38 am
I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:35 am
The enormity of the federal government is the main problem.
What would you say has caused that? Is it the natural tendency of power to flow to the top?
Direct democracy and the ability to get elected by catering to groups. Combined with Parkinson’s Law I suppose.
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by vnatale » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:13 am

Kbg wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:21 pm
Personally I think the government per se isn’t the problem, but rather the two dominant political parties who have rigged the system for their extreme wings.

Thoughts/counterpoints?
I have always been a firm believer in this quote:

In a democracy, the people get the government they deserve. It was Joseph de Maistre who wrote in 1811 "Every nation gets the government it deserves."


Everyone says they want to vote out all the incumbents. Except their own. Because their incumbents bring them what they want.

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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by vnatale » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:14 am

boglerdude wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:54 am
Governments have and will always be a thing. The smaller the better but how

Some low hanging fruit is term limits and ranked choice voting https://www.fairvote.org/rcv
Ranked choice voting a ballot question in Massachusetts. I predict it passes.

Vinny
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by boglerdude » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:37 pm

"There are FAR stricter rules around how political parties can spend money in other countries; During the campaign for the UK’s 2017 general election, political parties, candidates, and non-party campaigners spent around £40 million in total. In the 2016 US election, presidential candidates, Senate and House candidates, political parties, and outside interest groups spent about $6.5 billion trying to influence federal elections."
https://www.reddit.com/r/Ask_Politics/c ... g/fg2nqq2/

Also the Revolving Door
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by vnatale » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:57 pm

boglerdude wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:37 pm
"There are FAR stricter rules around how political parties can spend money in other countries; During the campaign for the UK’s 2017 general election, political parties, candidates, and non-party campaigners spent around £40 million in total. In the 2016 US election, presidential candidates, Senate and House candidates, political parties, and outside interest groups spent about $6.5 billion trying to influence federal elections."
https://www.reddit.com/r/Ask_Politics/c ... g/fg2nqq2/

Also the Revolving Door
Have any of you ever contributed money to a political campaign?

I never have and never will.

I find the amounts of money spent to be obscene with messages being simple and directed to the lowest common denominator.

In my ideal world political campaigns would be confined to a web site wherein each politician stated their positions. Extremely low costs campaigns! Of course the electorate would refuse to be informed by actually reading rather than watching TV so this is doomed from the start.

VInny
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Kbg » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:18 am

I was on an exchange program where I got to spend two seriously difficult weeks in Paris learning about the French government and it’s approach to national security. A couple of sessions were like basic French Government 101 for us ignorant Americans.

One thing they told us about was how they do national elections...I forget the exact details so undoubtedly I’ve got some details wrong but the thrust is correct.

100% publicly financed

Something like a 3 month first round to narrow down the field (sorta primaryish but not really a primary)

Something like a 1 month final round with 2-3 candidates, done.

One of the French participants asked...how can you stand 1-2 years of presidential campaigning, doesn’t it drive you crazy?

Answer...from the US side...yes.

Personally I’d be totally on board with the French approach.

And the Paris comment was tongue in cheek...I get why Paris is considered one of the great world cities. It was an awesome two weeks.
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by boglerdude » Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:19 am

Why do they allow so much immigration. Or has that actually been a net good for the country
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:59 am

Are you talking about France or the US?
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Kbg » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:03 am

boglerdude wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:19 am
Why do they allow so much immigration. Or has that actually been a net good for the country
It's a pretty controversial thing when it comes to Islamic immigration. The French are hyper separation of church and state. Hardcore secular in fact. IIRC there isn't a ton of legal immigration but there are special exceptions for former colonies. I found the French way less race oriented but they demand conformity to French ways and beliefs.

To be blunt, most of the European countries are in population decline vis-a-vis their historical populations and they are figuring out how to deal with that fact. You can allow immigration or turn into Japan.
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Kbg » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:03 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:59 am
Are you talking about France or the US?
Not tracking
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:09 am

Two books I found worthwhile were Reflections On The Revolution In Europe by Caldwell (2009) and The Strange Death Of Europe by Murray (2017).
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:10 am

Kbg wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:03 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:59 am
Are you talking about France or the US?
Not tracking
Boglerdude, not you.
One should not praise men who are like to women, or women who are like to men. Unless some necessity overtake the woman.
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by glennds » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:25 am

Kbg wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:18 am
I was on an exchange program where I got to spend two seriously difficult weeks in Paris learning about the French government and it’s approach to national security. A couple of sessions were like basic French Government 101 for us ignorant Americans.

One thing they told us about was how they do national elections...I forget the exact details so undoubtedly I’ve got some details wrong but the thrust is correct.

100% publicly financed

Something like a 3 month first round to narrow down the field (sorta primaryish but not really a primary)

Something like a 1 month final round with 2-3 candidates, done.

One of the French participants asked...how can you stand 1-2 years of presidential campaigning, doesn’t it drive you crazy?

Answer...from the US side...yes.

Personally I’d be totally on board with the French approach.

And the Paris comment was tongue in cheek...I get why Paris is considered one of the great world cities. It was an awesome two weeks.
Doesn't the French system also involve multiple rounds, in part to mitigate shock surprises like Brexit (or maybe Trump 2016)?
The idea being that in the second round more people are spurred to vote, or maybe some sober up for the second vote after getting an anger vote out of their system.
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by doodle » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:05 am

Kbg wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:03 am
boglerdude wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:19 am
Why do they allow so much immigration. Or has that actually been a net good for the country
It's a pretty controversial thing when it comes to Islamic immigration. The French are hyper separation of church and state. Hardcore secular in fact. IIRC there isn't a ton of legal immigration but there are special exceptions for former colonies. I found the French way less race oriented but they demand conformity to French ways and beliefs.

To be blunt, most of the European countries are in population decline vis-a-vis their historical populations and they are figuring out how to deal with that fact. You can allow immigration or turn into Japan.
Why is turning into Japan such a bad thing? Everyone always used them as an example of what we don't want to become...it doesn't seem so bad over there to me.
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by vnatale » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:33 am

doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:05 am
Kbg wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:03 am
boglerdude wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:19 am
Why do they allow so much immigration. Or has that actually been a net good for the country
It's a pretty controversial thing when it comes to Islamic immigration. The French are hyper separation of church and state. Hardcore secular in fact. IIRC there isn't a ton of legal immigration but there are special exceptions for former colonies. I found the French way less race oriented but they demand conformity to French ways and beliefs.

To be blunt, most of the European countries are in population decline vis-a-vis their historical populations and they are figuring out how to deal with that fact. You can allow immigration or turn into Japan.
Why is turning into Japan such a bad thing? Everyone always used them as an example of what we don't want to become...it doesn't seem so bad over there to me.
I believe it was in response to their having an aging population and not enough younger people to be able to financially support the elderly in their retirement?

Vinny
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Re: Debate: Government or Political Parties are the Problem

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:50 am

vnatale wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:33 am
doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:05 am
Kbg wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:03 am
boglerdude wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:19 am
Why do they allow so much immigration. Or has that actually been a net good for the country
It's a pretty controversial thing when it comes to Islamic immigration. The French are hyper separation of church and state. Hardcore secular in fact. IIRC there isn't a ton of legal immigration but there are special exceptions for former colonies. I found the French way less race oriented but they demand conformity to French ways and beliefs.

To be blunt, most of the European countries are in population decline vis-a-vis their historical populations and they are figuring out how to deal with that fact. You can allow immigration or turn into Japan.
Why is turning into Japan such a bad thing? Everyone always used them as an example of what we don't want to become...it doesn't seem so bad over there to me.
I believe it was in response to their having an aging population and not enough younger people to be able to financially support the elderly in their retirement?

Vinny
My memory as well. Look at what the US would become on its own without our past and current immigration given the societal thrust on abortion, transgenderism, birth control, homosexuality, etc. We are bent on pleasuring ourselves in a long painful slide into death. The production mechanism is failing to make us sustainable, not enough "new" people being made.
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