Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

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vnatale
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by vnatale » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:20 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:33 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:05 pm
We'd be going through another four years of the same someone with no qualifications, character, skills for being president.

We well MAY be the greatest country in the world. But the rest of the world cannot believe that a company so great is reduced to putting such a person as president.

Vinny
So you're saying that Biden would be running the third term of Obama?
If that were the worst case, I wouldn't be working on my emergency escape plan.
Of course, a good one by Mr. Libertarian666! I tried to carefully choose my words but, of course, he found a loophole!

Vinny
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by vnatale » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:23 am

sophie wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:26 am
glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:31 pm
Unfortunately, fear is a powerful campaign tactic and a good way to manipulate people. The study of evolutionary biology and neuropsychology has revealed that fear is a powerful agent that triggers our primal reptilian brains which then shunts access to the rational thinking centers of the upper neo-cortex. Fear makes us irrational. So does anger.
I'm not sure how anyone could deny that in Trump we have an angry leader who is uniquely effective at inciting fear in ways that no President in recent memory was willing or capable of doing.
Wait a sec....

Who is doing the fear mongering again?

At the start of the Trump presidency, I seem to remember that ISIS was terrorizing much of Western Europe as well as the US, while Iran and North Korea were threatening to acquire/test nuclear weapons. Those were scary things. Yes I fully recognize that Trump tried to convince everyone that illegal immigrants were coming in here primarily to commit violent crimes, which was a bit silly, and also talked a lot about the evils of free trade and globalism which frankly contributed a lot to his appeal, because he was right. But, don't you find it interesting that these issues have all somehow managed to disappear? Did that happen by magic or do you think maybe the Trump administration had something to do with it? If so, what does that tell you about who is out to create fear?

The news media are doing way more than Trump is. I don't suppose you've read the headlines recently, but aren't they pretty much all about what you should be scared of today? It's how they make their money. Nobody wants to read about puppies, sunshine and rainbows.
Just in the last few days I thought about Trump's intense focus on the caravan for days (weeks?) in the fall of 2018. He even sent the army at the border. Then the election happened and not a peep from him since regarding the caravan. Does anyone know what did happen with that caravan and its effect on our country?

Vinny
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by vnatale » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:26 am

glennds wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:49 am
sophie wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:26 am
glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:31 pm
Unfortunately, fear is a powerful campaign tactic and a good way to manipulate people. The study of evolutionary biology and neuropsychology has revealed that fear is a powerful agent that triggers our primal reptilian brains which then shunts access to the rational thinking centers of the upper neo-cortex. Fear makes us irrational. So does anger.
I'm not sure how anyone could deny that in Trump we have an angry leader who is uniquely effective at inciting fear in ways that no President in recent memory was willing or capable of doing.
Wait a sec....

Who is doing the fear mongering again?

At the start of the Trump presidency, I seem to remember that ISIS was terrorizing much of Western Europe as well as the US, while Iran and North Korea were threatening to acquire/test nuclear weapons. Those were scary things. Yes I fully recognize that Trump tried to convince everyone that illegal immigrants were coming in here primarily to commit violent crimes, which was a bit silly, and also talked a lot about the evils of free trade and globalism which frankly contributed a lot to his appeal, because he was right. But, don't you find it interesting that these issues have all somehow managed to disappear? Did that happen by magic or do you think maybe the Trump administration had something to do with it? If so, what does that tell you about who is out to create fear?

The news media are doing way more than Trump is. I don't suppose you've read the headlines recently, but aren't they pretty much all about what you should be scared of today? It's how they make their money. Nobody wants to read about puppies, sunshine and rainbows.
Seriously?
Head over to YouTube and watch either of the Arizona Trump rallies from two days ago and listen to him recite the vividly explicit list of things that will certainly happen if Biden wins the election. The "Left" are the new proxy for the rapists and murderers that were going to flood over the border in hordes but for the Wall. Antifa will take over all your cities and suburbs. You will be living in a country more like Venezuela under permanent lockdown. Watch your 401(k)s disappear. Watch your homes crash in value. But I and only I can save you.
They actually used Village People's Macho Man as one of his intro songs.

What I think is interesting is that the new threat is not Mexicans, North Koreans, ISIS. or any foreign power. The enemy is your fellow Americans. I'm simply saying I don't think this is a healthy trend for a society.

Why do you believe Iran and N. Korea are no longer acquiring and testing nuclear weapons? Not that physical weapons are the next threat anyway, but I digress.

Just to be clear, my comments are only about the effectiveness and destructiveness of fear campaigning and the effect of triggered states on rational thinking. Yes fear is used in the media, and yes fear is used in other venues, but I'm talking about Presidential campaigning.
Not that it is a totally new concept, but the innovation being the drive to existential intensity by Trump which I have not seen in my lifetime, at least in the United States.
That is because if you look up the definition of "sui generis" you will see Trump used an an example! There are SO many aspects to Trump's presidency that NONE of us have EVER seen in our lifetimes.

Vinny
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by tomfoolery » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:00 pm

glennds wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:49 am

Head over to YouTube and watch either of the Arizona Trump rallies from two days ago and listen to him recite the vividly explicit list of things that will certainly happen if Biden wins the election. The "Left" are the new proxy for the rapists and murderers that were going to flood over the border in hordes but for the Wall. Antifa will take over all your cities and suburbs. You will be living in a country more like Venezuela under permanent lockdown. Watch your 401(k)s disappear.
So, the thing is, Portland is a disaster right now because of liberal politicians in control. So, yes, if Biden won presidency, it’s certainly possible every city would look like Portland.

I’ve read Biden’s 401k plan, and if enacted, yes, my 401k would disappear.

I’ve read Biden’s gun control plan, and if enacted, yes, my gun collection would disappear.

I’ve heard Biden discuss his plans for lockdowns and masks, and if enacted, yes, it would be awful.

So while I admit Biden probably can’t do all of the things he’s promising, if he does, I’m fucked. These are things Biden himself is claiming, not things trump is inventing.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by pugchief » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:05 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:00 pm


So, the thing is, Portland is a disaster right now because of liberal politicians in control. So, yes, if Biden won presidency, it’s certainly possible every city would look like Portland.

I’ve read Biden’s 401k plan, and if enacted, yes, my 401k would disappear.

I’ve read Biden’s gun control plan, and if enacted, yes, my gun collection would disappear.

I’ve heard Biden discuss his plans for lockdowns and masks, and if enacted, yes, it would be awful.

So while I admit Biden probably can’t do all of the things he’s promising, if he does, I’m fucked. These are things Biden himself is claiming, not things trump is inventing.
Yep. +1
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by vnatale » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:28 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:00 pm
glennds wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:49 am

Head over to YouTube and watch either of the Arizona Trump rallies from two days ago and listen to him recite the vividly explicit list of things that will certainly happen if Biden wins the election. The "Left" are the new proxy for the rapists and murderers that were going to flood over the border in hordes but for the Wall. Antifa will take over all your cities and suburbs. You will be living in a country more like Venezuela under permanent lockdown. Watch your 401(k)s disappear.
So, the thing is, Portland is a disaster right now because of liberal politicians in control. So, yes, if Biden won presidency, it’s certainly possible every city would look like Portland.

I’ve read Biden’s 401k plan, and if enacted, yes, my 401k would disappear.

I’ve read Biden’s gun control plan, and if enacted, yes, my gun collection would disappear.

I’ve heard Biden discuss his plans for lockdowns and masks, and if enacted, yes, it would be awful.

So while I admit Biden probably can’t do all of the things he’s promising, if he does, I’m fucked. These are things Biden himself is claiming, not things trump is inventing.
Stipulating all you say is true....how many of those things can Biden do on his own? Does he not need the support of both parts of Congress?

I remind you that when Obama was elected the Democrats were in control of both houses of Congress. Yet he had to exert every once of his political capital to get the Affordable Care Act passed by the barest of margins.

All you name above needs to be passed by majorities in both houses. Majorities that have to be confident that their votes will not jeopardize their re-elections. How likely do you find that to happen?

Vinny
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by tomfoolery » Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:54 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:28 pm

Stipulating all you say is true....how many of those things can Biden do on his own? Does he not need the support of both parts of Congress?

I remind you that when Obama was elected the Democrats were in control of both houses of Congress. Yet he had to exert every once of his political capital to get the Affordable Care Act passed by the barest of margins.

All you name above needs to be passed by majorities in both houses. Majorities that have to be confident that their votes will not jeopardize their re-elections. How likely do you find that to happen?

Vinny
Vinny,

If I am tracking you correctly, your defense of Biden is that it doesn’t matter what his agenda is, doesn’t matter what he promises, doesn’t matter what plans he’s outlined, because he won’t be able to follow through anyway, so we should vote for Biden because all of our fears of what he might do, which are based on what he’s promising to do, are unjustified because he can’t do them anyway.

Is that your stance or did I misunderstand?
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Tortoise » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:23 pm

I find it amusing that the left-leaning folks here seem to be saying that the majority of the fearmongering has been coming from Trump's campaign and not Biden's.

Isn't it the Dems who've said in both 2016 and 2020 that if Trump is elected, the white supremacists lurking behind every tree will come out and wreak havoc? Isn't it the Dems who've said that if Trump is elected, his divisive rhetoric will incite new wars with foreign nations? And isn't it Biden's campaign that says if Trump is reelected, many more people will die of Covid-1984 because the American people didn't allow Biden to save their lives with his nationwide lockdown? All of that definitely sounds like fearmongering to me.

There is fearmongering on both sides. The difference seems to be that the things Trump is warning us about are real dangers (albeit sometimes exaggerated for showmanship), whereas the things the Dems are warning us about are imaginary and not supported by the evidence of Trump's first four years as President.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by doodle » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:31 pm

The way I look at it..One way or another the masses in society are going to eventually figure out a way to rebalance the growing inequality. In the past traditionally this was done through revolutions and people losing heads. In the 1930s revolution was averted and capitalism was saved by Roosevelt's new deal and the lucky timing of world war two for our nation. This pot has again been simmering away since the occupy and tea party movements during the last crash and that simmer occasionally reached a full boil at points in the last few months. I'm not advocating the merits of any particular solution, I'm just looking at things from a historical perspective. Things have become unbalanced and although you can make appeals to all the philosophical rights that you want, they don't really exist in a world that is governed by force when all is said and done.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Tortoise » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:42 pm

doodle wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:31 pm
The way I look at it..One way or another the masses in society are going to eventually figure out a way to rebalance the growing inequality. In the past traditionally this was done through revolutions and people losing heads. In the 1930s revolution was averted and capitalism was saved by Roosevelt's new deal and the lucky timing of world war two for our nation. This pot has again been simmering away since the occupy and tea party movements during the last crash and that simmer occasionally reached a full boil at points in the last few months.
This isn't a great uprising by the poor working class.

The majority of the Antifa/BLM thugs who've been committing most of the vandalism and violence over the past several months aren't the downtrodden and oppressed. They're mostly middle-class white kids who live in their parents' comfortable basements rent-free, playing Call of Duty by day and rioting in black bloc costumes by night. The rest of them are college students -- usually transgender English Literature majors with purple hair.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by pugchief » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:46 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:42 pm
usually transgender English Literature majors with purple hair.
Off topic, but it will be a miracle if there is any procreation here in the US for the foreseeable future what with most of the childbearing women being fat and tatted up, short purple hair, and a feminist personality that leaves a lot for any man worth his salt to desire.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by pp4me » Wed Oct 21, 2020 1:47 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:28 pm
I remind you that when Obama was elected the Democrats were in control of both houses of Congress. Yet he had to exert every once of his political capital to get the Affordable Care Act passed by the barest of margins.

All you name above needs to be passed by majorities in both houses. Majorities that have to be confident that their votes will not jeopardize their re-elections. How likely do you find that to happen?

Vinny
People do seem to forget that the voters have the power to stomp on the brakes two years after a presidential election if they think things are getting out of control. That's exactly what happened with the passage of ObamaCare just as you are saying. The Dems lost 63 seats in Congress giving the Reps a majority in 2010.

Same thing happened with Hillary Care which led to the successful Republican "Contract with America". I believe it was during the State of the Union speech that year that Clinton famously declared that "the era of big government is over" (it wasn't, of course).
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