Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by tomfoolery » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:00 pm

glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:51 pm
sophie wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:11 am

PP4ME I hope you're right. Here's what I would fear the most...it's a long list.

Permanent national lockdown and mask mandate i.e. with no clearly articulated endpoint. Economy goes into the crapper as a result and we end up with a deep, long, nasty depression, sky high unemployment, and evisceration of small businesses and the restaurant/entertainment industry.

Assuming we agree that all politicians and political parties are self interested, then what is the incentive for Biden or the Democrats to effect a permanent national lockdown? What do they gain from it?

For clarification, I'm not arguing that a permanent national lockdown is their objective, I'm trying to understand WHY it would be their objective.
Several benefits to the democrats:

1- the dems are the party of the nanny state, and the more you are dependent on them, the more they can control you. Imagine a 25 year old living at home, with no job, for free and has an allowance from his parents. This young adult has a lot less freedom than a 25 year old living on his own. The dems are the party of welfare and free shit. The more fee shit you get, the more you’re dependant on them, the less you can fight back.

If you’re living at home for free, you better not talk back to your dad or he won’t give you your allowance this week, he might even disable the home router so you can’t play call of duty. Even if your dad is a dick, you better smile and be polite.

If the dems close down the country, more people will be out of work and more dependent on government handouts like UI and food stamps. It increases their power.

2- if the dems don’t shut down the country, then they appear to be at fault for any deaths that occur. Much like the republicans are taking flak for. So there’s a strong incentive on both sides to shut down, to avoid perceived death tolls on their hands, but since republicans and libertarians don’t want to increase government handouts, the balance tips in favor of deaths.


It’s all about control. The dems would love nothing more than to mandate contact tracing apps on your phone and if you associate with divise people, like ones who support the second amendment or ones who want the shutdown to end, then they’ll know and can punish you accordingly.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by tomfoolery » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:03 pm

doodle wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:32 am
As far as tax policy goes, I think it’s a poor way to deal with growing wealth gaps. In previous threads I talked about getting labor to organize and negotiate for better pay. This would solve this issue without government involvement.
Yeah but it won’t solve the problem without government involvement. Unions only exist today because if government involvement in union states, at the threat of murder at gunpoint that you can’t hire someone for a certain job unless they are part of a union.

It’s the right-to-work states, where the government has not turned into armed enforcers for union leaders where unions are weak or non-existent.

So if you have a way for unions to thrive without government involvement at all, and in fact stripping existing government mandates in states that require unions, then as a libertarian is applaud you for your free market solutioning.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by tomfoolery » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:11 pm

Trump winning resulting in more climate change was brought up. I’ve been under the impression these west coast wild fires were caused by mismanagement of forestry service whereby they failed to do smaller controlled burns over the last 10 to 20 years, so massive ones occur in response.

And it was liberal controlled states that failed to perform this maintenance. Perhaps due to political reasons such as “an endangered spotted tree frog lives here so we can’t do controlled burns” or perhaps unrelated to politics and if conservative leadership were in charge of California, Washington and Oregon, maybe the same thing would have happened.

But to blame Trump disempowering the EPA seems horseshit when natural wildfires happen all the time, humans are supposed to do small regular controlled burns to minimize the big one, and they failed to do so I’m recent years for whatever reason.

Maybe ignorance. Maybe budget cuts. Maybe budget reallocation to the homeless crisis. Maybe endangered animal conversation. Maybe malice, knowing massive fires would occur and they can blame orangeman. Maybe a mix. Maybe random.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by glennds » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:31 pm

Kbg wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:45 am
I’m a Republican basically, more old school Reagan type. “Hey, Tip, let’s sit down and hammer this out.”

Gotta say...Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Bush1, Clinton, Bush2, Obama, Trump...it’s all been good. World hasn’t come to an end with any of them. I’ll shake the hand and be willing to compromise and make common cause with a Democrat, Libertarian, Green Party etc. It’s OK, it really is. I’ve seen a lot of this world and pretty much everyone wants the same things, food, shelter, the ability to provide for themselves and a better life for their children.

Less media in everyone’s life is a good thing. The job of the news is to make news to sell it...we should always remember that.

I fear people who are uncompromising. They normally screw things up and start wars.
I'm right there with you.
Every time is "different". Nothing in this country has ever turned out as badly as what the other side feared.

Unfortunately, fear is a powerful campaign tactic and a good way to manipulate people. The study of evolutionary biology and neuropsychology has revealed that fear is a powerful agent that triggers our primal reptilian brains which then shunts access to the rational thinking centers of the upper neo-cortex. Fear makes us irrational. So does anger.
I'm not sure how anyone could deny that in Trump we have an angry leader who is uniquely effective at inciting fear in ways that no President in recent memory was willing or capable of doing. The trend towards no-holds-barred partisanship that was ushered in by Newt Gingrich contributed to the foundation.
Amp this up with social media, MSM bias, and the proliferation of disinformation and what do you have? An irrational, triggered populace that can no longer think or engage rationally. Telltale signs are paranoia, polarized tribalism, mistrust, unwillingness to engage with the "other side". The perceived threats become not just concerning, but existential. Look around, do you see any of these signs?

As I said in another thread, almost all the political ideologies have some merit. But taken to extreme they all become absurd. When the real chaos sets in, we can only see the other ideologies in extreme, not in moderation. It's like a form of color blindness but instead of color, we cannot see gradation. The left can only be radical Marxist left. The libertarians can only be militia anarchists. The right can only be fascist populists.
Truth is, 99% of any of these groups are not nearly that extreme, but when the triggered blindness sets in we just can't see it.
Last edited by glennds on Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:31 pm

sophie wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:11 am

PP4ME I hope you're right. Here's what I would fear the most...it's a long list.

Permanent national lockdown and mask mandate i.e. with no clearly articulated endpoint. Economy goes into the crapper as a result and we end up with a deep, long, nasty depression, sky high unemployment, and evisceration of small businesses and the restaurant/entertainment industry.

Politicians notice that tax receipts are falling, and of course cutting costs and canceling pork projects is out of the question. Income taxes are increased across the board. Same thing happens on a state level, for both income and property taxes.

New federally mandated online training for employees in "critical race theory" and measures to further hobble law enforcement, release violent criminals from jails, and greatly reduce prosecutions. The current spike in crime in all major cities continues to accelerate and spreads to suburban areas. A whole generation of white kids are brought up to believe the worst about themselves and their country, that the spike in crime is their fault, and that they can't do anything about it and must accept being regularly victimized.

A wealth tax is instituted by the federal government, followed by states eager to take advantage. Investments are hit hard. People with wealth seek to hide assets in whatever way they can. Economy goes further into the crapper. Wealthy people start expatriating from the US since that is now cheaper than staying. The floor for the wealth tax is steadily lowered in order to make up for declining revenue. It starts to hit average retirees, creating a major crisis.

Meanwhile, the "infrastructure" projects fail miserably because they were not well planned. Power blackouts like the ones in California become more common as solar/wind capacity fails to keep up with restrictions on natural gas, oil and coal power. This is further exacerbated by laws promoting electric vehicles.

Sounds awful doesn't it? And yet these are only the items that are already starting to happen, or for which concrete plans already exist. So this is not all that unrealistic of a doomsday scenario.

There might be a few positives though:

Medicare for all - if done right this could rescue the unsustainable health care system. Of course it won't be and things will get even worse, but oh well.

Investments in national infrastructure like roads & bridges. We can only hope, but that is one of the very few things Biden is promising that might garner widespread support.

Anyway, if Biden is elected I would say that the next thread should be about how to protect ourselves.
The only way would be to flee to a less dictatorial country, if you can find one and can get in.
There will be no place to hide here.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:33 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:05 pm
We'd be going through another four years of the same someone with no qualifications, character, skills for being president.

We well MAY be the greatest country in the world. But the rest of the world cannot believe that a company so great is reduced to putting such a person as president.

Vinny
So you're saying that Biden would be running the third term of Obama?
If that were the worst case, I wouldn't be working on my emergency escape plan.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:07 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:22 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:13 pm
glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:08 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:24 am
I’m with Winston Churchill on this one. 8)
You have nothing to give but blood, sweat, toil and tears?
Not bad, not bad at all! 8) I am now thinking too of FDR, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself".
And, all this time I thought that THIS was the Churchill quote you had in mind!

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Vinny
That’s a great one too. 8)
“He who denies the existence of God, has some reason for wishing that God did not exist.” — Augustine Of Hippo
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Kbg » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:05 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:33 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:05 pm
We'd be going through another four years of the same someone with no qualifications, character, skills for being president.

We well MAY be the greatest country in the world. But the rest of the world cannot believe that a company so great is reduced to putting such a person as president.

Vinny
So you're saying that Biden would be running the third term of Obama?
If that were the worst case, I wouldn't be working on my emergency escape plan.
Where you going? All the ones I would go to are probably too pinko-communist for you. Do tell, I want to know where freedom nirvana is.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:04 am

Kbg wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:05 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:33 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:05 pm
We'd be going through another four years of the same someone with no qualifications, character, skills for being president.

We well MAY be the greatest country in the world. But the rest of the world cannot believe that a company so great is reduced to putting such a person as president.

Vinny
So you're saying that Biden would be running the third term of Obama?
If that were the worst case, I wouldn't be working on my emergency escape plan.
Where you going? All the ones I would go to are probably too pinko-communist for you. Do tell, I want to know where freedom nirvana is.
I have tentative plans that I don't want to share on a message board. Nothing illegal, of course.

I am willing to say that I don't know of any freedom nirvanas.

Given that, what I'm looking for is a small neutral country far from whatever insanity ensues, and which hasn't gone insane with brutal lockdowns and the like.

I have a strong preference for an English-speaking country, with Spanish in a distant second place.

I will also say that if Switzerland were an option, I'd take it even though it isn't English speaking and is in the middle of Europe. I expect that it will remain fairly safe and prosperous, but I just can't afford it.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by sophie » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:26 am

glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:31 pm
Unfortunately, fear is a powerful campaign tactic and a good way to manipulate people. The study of evolutionary biology and neuropsychology has revealed that fear is a powerful agent that triggers our primal reptilian brains which then shunts access to the rational thinking centers of the upper neo-cortex. Fear makes us irrational. So does anger.
I'm not sure how anyone could deny that in Trump we have an angry leader who is uniquely effective at inciting fear in ways that no President in recent memory was willing or capable of doing.
Wait a sec....

Who is doing the fear mongering again?

At the start of the Trump presidency, I seem to remember that ISIS was terrorizing much of Western Europe as well as the US, while Iran and North Korea were threatening to acquire/test nuclear weapons. Those were scary things. Yes I fully recognize that Trump tried to convince everyone that illegal immigrants were coming in here primarily to commit violent crimes, which was a bit silly, and also talked a lot about the evils of free trade and globalism which frankly contributed a lot to his appeal, because he was right. But, don't you find it interesting that these issues have all somehow managed to disappear? Did that happen by magic or do you think maybe the Trump administration had something to do with it? If so, what does that tell you about who is out to create fear?

The news media are doing way more than Trump is. I don't suppose you've read the headlines recently, but aren't they pretty much all about what you should be scared of today? It's how they make their money. Nobody wants to read about puppies, sunshine and rainbows.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by glennds » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:49 am

sophie wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:26 am
glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:31 pm
Unfortunately, fear is a powerful campaign tactic and a good way to manipulate people. The study of evolutionary biology and neuropsychology has revealed that fear is a powerful agent that triggers our primal reptilian brains which then shunts access to the rational thinking centers of the upper neo-cortex. Fear makes us irrational. So does anger.
I'm not sure how anyone could deny that in Trump we have an angry leader who is uniquely effective at inciting fear in ways that no President in recent memory was willing or capable of doing.
Wait a sec....

Who is doing the fear mongering again?

At the start of the Trump presidency, I seem to remember that ISIS was terrorizing much of Western Europe as well as the US, while Iran and North Korea were threatening to acquire/test nuclear weapons. Those were scary things. Yes I fully recognize that Trump tried to convince everyone that illegal immigrants were coming in here primarily to commit violent crimes, which was a bit silly, and also talked a lot about the evils of free trade and globalism which frankly contributed a lot to his appeal, because he was right. But, don't you find it interesting that these issues have all somehow managed to disappear? Did that happen by magic or do you think maybe the Trump administration had something to do with it? If so, what does that tell you about who is out to create fear?

The news media are doing way more than Trump is. I don't suppose you've read the headlines recently, but aren't they pretty much all about what you should be scared of today? It's how they make their money. Nobody wants to read about puppies, sunshine and rainbows.
Seriously?
Head over to YouTube and watch either of the Arizona Trump rallies from two days ago and listen to him recite the vividly explicit list of things that will certainly happen if Biden wins the election. The "Left" are the new proxy for the rapists and murderers that were going to flood over the border in hordes but for the Wall. Antifa will take over all your cities and suburbs. You will be living in a country more like Venezuela under permanent lockdown. Watch your 401(k)s disappear. Watch your homes crash in value. But I and only I can save you.
They actually used Village People's Macho Man as one of his intro songs.

What I think is interesting is that the new threat is not Mexicans, North Koreans, ISIS. or any foreign power. The enemy is your fellow Americans. I'm simply saying I don't think this is a healthy trend for a society.

Why do you believe Iran and N. Korea are no longer acquiring and testing nuclear weapons? Not that physical weapons are the next threat anyway, but I digress.

Just to be clear, my comments are only about the effectiveness and destructiveness of fear campaigning and the effect of triggered states on rational thinking. Yes fear is used in the media, and yes fear is used in other venues, but I'm talking about Presidential campaigning.
Not that it is a totally new concept, but the innovation being the drive to existential intensity by Trump which I have not seen in my lifetime, at least in the United States.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by vnatale » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:18 am

glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:31 pm
Kbg wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:45 am
I’m a Republican basically, more old school Reagan type. “Hey, Tip, let’s sit down and hammer this out.”

Gotta say...Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Bush1, Clinton, Bush2, Obama, Trump...it’s all been good. World hasn’t come to an end with any of them. I’ll shake the hand and be willing to compromise and make common cause with a Democrat, Libertarian, Green Party etc. It’s OK, it really is. I’ve seen a lot of this world and pretty much everyone wants the same things, food, shelter, the ability to provide for themselves and a better life for their children.

Less media in everyone’s life is a good thing. The job of the news is to make news to sell it...we should always remember that.

I fear people who are uncompromising. They normally screw things up and start wars.
I'm right there with you.
Every time is "different". Nothing in this country has ever turned out as badly as what the other side feared.

Unfortunately, fear is a powerful campaign tactic and a good way to manipulate people. The study of evolutionary biology and neuropsychology has revealed that fear is a powerful agent that triggers our primal reptilian brains which then shunts access to the rational thinking centers of the upper neo-cortex. Fear makes us irrational. So does anger.
I'm not sure how anyone could deny that in Trump we have an angry leader who is uniquely effective at inciting fear in ways that no President in recent memory was willing or capable of doing. The trend towards no-holds-barred partisanship that was ushered in by Newt Gingrich contributed to the foundation.
Amp this up with social media, MSM bias, and the proliferation of disinformation and what do you have? An irrational, triggered populace that can no longer think or engage rationally. Telltale signs are paranoia, polarized tribalism, mistrust, unwillingness to engage with the "other side". The perceived threats become not just concerning, but existential. Look around, do you see any of these signs?

As I said in another thread, almost all the political ideologies have some merit. But taken to extreme they all become absurd. When the real chaos sets in, we can only see the other ideologies in extreme, not in moderation. It's like a form of color blindness but instead of color, we cannot see gradation. The left can only be radical Marxist left. The libertarians can only be militia anarchists. The right can only be fascist populists.
Truth is, 99% of any of these groups are not nearly that extreme, but when the triggered blindness sets in we just can't see it.
Absolutely!

Vinny
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