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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:45 am
by Kbg
I’m a Republican basically, more old school Reagan type. “Hey, Tip, let’s sit down and hammer this out.”

Gotta say...Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Bush1, Clinton, Bush2, Obama, Trump...it’s all been good. World hasn’t come to an end with any of them. I’ll shake the hand and be willing to compromise and make common cause with a Democrat, Libertarian, Green Party etc. It’s OK, it really is. I’ve seen a lot of this world and pretty much everyone wants the same things, food, shelter, the ability to provide for themselves and a better life for their children.

Less media in everyone’s life is a good thing. The job of the news is to make news to sell it...we should always remember that.

I fear people who are uncompromising. They normally screw things up and start wars.

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:17 am
by pp4me
I take comfort in knowing that Biden is a lying politician and 47 year swamp creature who will say anything to get elected. He'll have to toss a few bones to the progressives here and there but hopefully he'll focus mainly on enriching himself and his family and leave the rest of us alone.

As for Kamala, I think she's a wholly owned subsidiary of the billionaire class that runs the country and isn't going to rock the boat all that much.

If either one of them was a Donald Trump who actually does the things he says I'd be more worried.

Also, I'm assuming there will still be another election in two years if they get too crazy.

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:24 am
by Mountaineer
I’m with Winston Churchill on this one. 8)

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:30 am
by I Shrugged
pp4me wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:17 am
I take comfort in knowing that Biden is a lying politician and 47 year swamp creature who will say anything to get elected. He'll have to toss a few bones to the progressives here and there but hopefully he'll focus mainly on enriching himself and his family and leave the rest of us alone.

As for Kamala, I think she's a wholly owned subsidiary of the billionaire class that runs the country and isn't going to rock the boat all that much.

If either one of them was a Donald Trump who actually does the things he says I'd be more worried.

Also, I'm assuming there will still be another election in two years if they get too crazy.
Great post.

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:33 am
by I Shrugged
Which is not to say that I have no fears about it.

If Trump wins, I fear that the Antifa and Hollywood and Media and Tech assault will be 5 times what it is now, and will be extremely dangerous to the country.

If Biden/Harris win, I fear that the lefties will be empowered and thus all of their tactics will continue, just not with as much shrieking.

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:35 am
by I Shrugged
I can imagine in newsrooms on the day the winner is clear, the street reporter assignment is going to be to go out and find a purple haired 20 year old woman who is wailing either in agony or ecstasy.

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:11 am
by WiseOne
pp4me wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:17 am
I take comfort in knowing that Biden is a lying politician and 47 year swamp creature who will say anything to get elected. He'll have to toss a few bones to the progressives here and there but hopefully he'll focus mainly on enriching himself and his family and leave the rest of us alone.

As for Kamala, I think she's a wholly owned subsidiary of the billionaire class that runs the country and isn't going to rock the boat all that much.

If either one of them was a Donald Trump who actually does the things he says I'd be more worried.

Also, I'm assuming there will still be another election in two years if they get too crazy.
PP4ME I hope you're right. Here's what I would fear the most...it's a long list.

Permanent national lockdown and mask mandate i.e. with no clearly articulated endpoint. Economy goes into the crapper as a result and we end up with a deep, long, nasty depression, sky high unemployment, and evisceration of small businesses and the restaurant/entertainment industry.

Politicians notice that tax receipts are falling, and of course cutting costs and canceling pork projects is out of the question. Income taxes are increased across the board. Same thing happens on a state level, for both income and property taxes.

New federally mandated online training for employees in "critical race theory" and measures to further hobble law enforcement, release violent criminals from jails, and greatly reduce prosecutions. The current spike in crime in all major cities continues to accelerate and spreads to suburban areas. A whole generation of white kids are brought up to believe the worst about themselves and their country, that the spike in crime is their fault, and that they can't do anything about it and must accept being regularly victimized.

A wealth tax is instituted by the federal government, followed by states eager to take advantage. Investments are hit hard. People with wealth seek to hide assets in whatever way they can. Economy goes further into the crapper. Wealthy people start expatriating from the US since that is now cheaper than staying. The floor for the wealth tax is steadily lowered in order to make up for declining revenue. It starts to hit average retirees, creating a major crisis.

Meanwhile, the "infrastructure" projects fail miserably because they were not well planned. Power blackouts like the ones in California become more common as solar/wind capacity fails to keep up with restrictions on natural gas, oil and coal power. This is further exacerbated by laws promoting electric vehicles.

Sounds awful doesn't it? And yet these are only the items that are already starting to happen, or for which concrete plans already exist. So this is not all that unrealistic of a doomsday scenario.

There might be a few positives though:

Medicare for all - if done right this could rescue the unsustainable health care system. Of course it won't be and things will get even worse, but oh well.

Investments in national infrastructure like roads & bridges. We can only hope, but that is one of the very few things Biden is promising that might garner widespread support.

Anyway, if Biden is elected I would say that the next thread should be about how to protect ourselves.

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:20 am
by doodle
I think that no matter who wins the overall economic trends we have seen in the United States will continue...I think tomfoolery’s fears about the left coming after people making a paltry 200k are exagerrated. I do think there are bigger equity issue trends though that we are going to have to come to terms with...the ceo compensation packages, golden parachutes, lack of corporate accountability, bailouts, decline of labor organization need to be addressed.
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Both Trump and Biden sometimes say insane radical things to cater to the loonies in their base....I think Trumps personal qualities make him unfit as a political leader. The negative statements of dozens of respectable people who have worked for him I think support this. I think this drain the swamp thing is a ruse...considering how many positions he has filled with family members and friends and fired anyone who has opposing viewpoints. That worries me, I think it is good to have dissenting voices within a group.

Trump is a divisive person and I’m afraid he will continue to drive a wedge through the middle of this country...that isn’t good for anyone.

As far as policy goes relative to immigration, military excursions, and manufacturing, I side with Trump. As far as the environment, health care I side with the left.

To me the right has overemphasized the individual over collective society...they share a symbiotic relationship and support one another. The left has demphasized personal responsibility which endangers liberties and freedoms.

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:26 am
by doodle
Id also add that politicians are more like riverboat captains than sailors on the open sea. Their course and direction are constrained and largely directed by forces beyond their control. If a third wave of corona virus emerges this winter that strains hospital capacity and starts killing many thousands of Americans a day it’s going to be bad for the economy no matter who is in power.

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:32 am
by doodle
As far as tax policy goes, I think it’s a poor way to deal with growing wealth gaps. In previous threads I talked about getting labor to organize and negotiate for better pay. This would solve this issue without government involvement. Why people have an issue with labor organizing for better pay and don’t have an issue with incestual nepotistic corporate boards coming up with better and better compensation packages for management is confusing to me.

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:10 am
by doodle
tomfoolery wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:58 am
So far, all of the shared fears can be categorized as:

a) things republicans and libertarians fear Biden will do to the country in the form of new laww/regulations

Or

b) things leftists radicals will do to the country in reponse to Trump winning

I haven’t heard the left describe how trump winning will ruin the country, but I have heard the right and center deceive how Biden may ruin the country.

So what is it the left fears? Trump will make a national ban against transgender bathrooms? Trump will ban Muslims from entering the country? Trump will fail to shutdown the country at a federal level and fail to enact a mask mandate at a federal level and leave it up to cities and states as has been the case so far? Trump will continue to allow the NRA to dominate our gun control and the devastating effects of the unchecked 2nd amendment continue to cause our streets to pour blood?
I’m not happy with trumps environmental policies. I want a national healthcare option like every other western industrialized nation. I think his miracle economy is based on shaky ground...huge deficit fueled economic growth unsustainable long term. I don’t trust him at all....I don’t trust narcissistic megalomaniacs in general. I don’t think his vitriolic personality is good for our nation. That being said, I’m not thrilled with democratic leadership either.

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:11 am
by WiseOne
Doodle, since your graph clearly shows a steady upward trend far predating 2016, with no increase in the slope after that date, how exactly do you figure this to be due to Trump's "divisiveness"?

We have one element that other countries represented on that graph do not: massive illegal/unskilled immigration and an immigration policy based on the worst kind of nonsense. That will depress wages like nothing else. The purpose of the H1b program, for example, is to hire relatively cheap workers from places like India instead of Americans with equal skills but who would command a higher salary.

Isn't that precisely what Trump has been trying to combat?

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:56 am
by jalanlong
My biggest fear with a Biden/Harris victory is an escalation of the Covid restrictions. Biden already has a team in place that has been working on a Covid plan to go into effect immediately after he is elected. And a big part of that plan is "One Voice" meaning local regulations will go out the window and we will be in for national mask mandates (even if you live in a town with sparse populations and 0 Covid cases) and constant lockdowns with no articulated end or goal other than to "save lives" and "protect Americans."

I know a lot of people expect the virus to suddenly disappear after Biden wins but I am not that optimistic at all. Given that Covid is the #1 issue among voting Democrats according to polling, I doubt Biden is just going to ignore that once he gets in. And if Fauci becomes a big player in the White House again you can be assured more restrictions are coming.

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:53 pm
by Tortoise
One danger I haven't seen anyone on this thread (or the presidential candidates, for that matter) mention yet is the issue of federal bailouts of various state governments as a result of their destructive Covid-1984 restrictions. We all know that's coming soon.

I suspect both candidates are willing to bail out some states to some extent, but Trump would almost certainly withhold some bailout funds from the blue states with the most oppressive Covid-1984 restrictions and would also attach strings to the funds as a way of incentivizing those states to lift their restrictions sooner. I don't know that for sure, but it seems like something Trump might do.

Biden, by contrast, would be more likely to fully bail out every state, which would effectively be a transfer of wealth to blue states that did the most damage to their economies through Covid-1984 restrictions. That would be unfair to the other states and would introduce moral hazard.

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:05 pm
by vnatale
We'd be going through another four years of the same someone with no qualifications, character, skills for being president.

We well MAY be the greatest country in the world. But the rest of the world cannot believe that a company so great is reduced to putting such a person as president.

Vinny

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:08 pm
by glennds
Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:24 am
I’m with Winston Churchill on this one. 8)
You have nothing to give but blood, sweat, toil and tears?

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:13 pm
by Mountaineer
glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:08 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:24 am
I’m with Winston Churchill on this one. 8)
You have nothing to give but blood, sweat, toil and tears?
Not bad, not bad at all! 8) I am now thinking too of FDR, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself".

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:22 pm
by vnatale
Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:13 pm
glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:08 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:24 am
I’m with Winston Churchill on this one. 8)
You have nothing to give but blood, sweat, toil and tears?
Not bad, not bad at all! 8) I am now thinking too of FDR, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself".
And, all this time I thought that THIS was the Churchill quote you had in mind!

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Vinny

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:47 pm
by glennds
vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:22 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:13 pm
glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:08 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:24 am
I’m with Winston Churchill on this one. 8)
You have nothing to give but blood, sweat, toil and tears?
Not bad, not bad at all! 8) I am now thinking too of FDR, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself".
And, all this time I thought that THIS was the Churchill quote you had in mind!

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Vinny
Then there's also "Americans can always be trusted to do the right thing, after all other possibilities have been exhausted"

I always liked - "The best argument against Democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter"

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:51 pm
by glennds
WiseOne wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:11 am

PP4ME I hope you're right. Here's what I would fear the most...it's a long list.

Permanent national lockdown and mask mandate i.e. with no clearly articulated endpoint. Economy goes into the crapper as a result and we end up with a deep, long, nasty depression, sky high unemployment, and evisceration of small businesses and the restaurant/entertainment industry.

Assuming we agree that all politicians and political parties are self interested, then what is the incentive for Biden or the Democrats to effect a permanent national lockdown? What do they gain from it?

For clarification, I'm not necessarily disputing that a permanent national lockdown is their objective, I'm trying to properly understand WHY it would be their objective.

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:31 pm
by glennds
Kbg wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:45 am
I’m a Republican basically, more old school Reagan type. “Hey, Tip, let’s sit down and hammer this out.”

Gotta say...Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Bush1, Clinton, Bush2, Obama, Trump...it’s all been good. World hasn’t come to an end with any of them. I’ll shake the hand and be willing to compromise and make common cause with a Democrat, Libertarian, Green Party etc. It’s OK, it really is. I’ve seen a lot of this world and pretty much everyone wants the same things, food, shelter, the ability to provide for themselves and a better life for their children.

Less media in everyone’s life is a good thing. The job of the news is to make news to sell it...we should always remember that.

I fear people who are uncompromising. They normally screw things up and start wars.
I'm right there with you.
Every time is "different". Nothing in this country has ever turned out as badly as what the other side feared.

Unfortunately, fear is a powerful campaign tactic and a good way to manipulate people. The study of evolutionary biology and neuropsychology has revealed that fear is a powerful agent that triggers our primal reptilian brains which then shunts access to the rational thinking centers of the upper neo-cortex. Fear makes us irrational. So does anger.
I'm not sure how anyone could deny that in Trump we have an angry leader who is uniquely effective at inciting fear in ways that no President in recent memory was willing or capable of doing. The trend towards no-holds-barred partisanship that was ushered in by Newt Gingrich contributed to the foundation.
Amp this up with social media, MSM bias, and the proliferation of disinformation and what do you have? An irrational, triggered populace that can no longer think or engage rationally. Telltale signs are paranoia, polarized tribalism, mistrust, unwillingness to engage with the "other side". The perceived threats become not just concerning, but existential. Look around, do you see any of these signs?

As I said in another thread, almost all the political ideologies have some merit. But taken to extreme they all become absurd. When the real chaos sets in, we can only see the other ideologies in extreme, not in moderation. It's like a form of color blindness but instead of color, we cannot see gradation. The left can only be radical Marxist left. The libertarians can only be militia anarchists. The right can only be fascist populists.
Truth is, 99% of any of these groups are not nearly that extreme, but when the triggered blindness sets in we just can't see it.

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:31 pm
by Libertarian666
WiseOne wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:11 am

PP4ME I hope you're right. Here's what I would fear the most...it's a long list.

Permanent national lockdown and mask mandate i.e. with no clearly articulated endpoint. Economy goes into the crapper as a result and we end up with a deep, long, nasty depression, sky high unemployment, and evisceration of small businesses and the restaurant/entertainment industry.

Politicians notice that tax receipts are falling, and of course cutting costs and canceling pork projects is out of the question. Income taxes are increased across the board. Same thing happens on a state level, for both income and property taxes.

New federally mandated online training for employees in "critical race theory" and measures to further hobble law enforcement, release violent criminals from jails, and greatly reduce prosecutions. The current spike in crime in all major cities continues to accelerate and spreads to suburban areas. A whole generation of white kids are brought up to believe the worst about themselves and their country, that the spike in crime is their fault, and that they can't do anything about it and must accept being regularly victimized.

A wealth tax is instituted by the federal government, followed by states eager to take advantage. Investments are hit hard. People with wealth seek to hide assets in whatever way they can. Economy goes further into the crapper. Wealthy people start expatriating from the US since that is now cheaper than staying. The floor for the wealth tax is steadily lowered in order to make up for declining revenue. It starts to hit average retirees, creating a major crisis.

Meanwhile, the "infrastructure" projects fail miserably because they were not well planned. Power blackouts like the ones in California become more common as solar/wind capacity fails to keep up with restrictions on natural gas, oil and coal power. This is further exacerbated by laws promoting electric vehicles.

Sounds awful doesn't it? And yet these are only the items that are already starting to happen, or for which concrete plans already exist. So this is not all that unrealistic of a doomsday scenario.

There might be a few positives though:

Medicare for all - if done right this could rescue the unsustainable health care system. Of course it won't be and things will get even worse, but oh well.

Investments in national infrastructure like roads & bridges. We can only hope, but that is one of the very few things Biden is promising that might garner widespread support.

Anyway, if Biden is elected I would say that the next thread should be about how to protect ourselves.
The only way would be to flee to a less dictatorial country, if you can find one and can get in.
There will be no place to hide here.

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:33 pm
by Libertarian666
vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:05 pm
We'd be going through another four years of the same someone with no qualifications, character, skills for being president.

We well MAY be the greatest country in the world. But the rest of the world cannot believe that a company so great is reduced to putting such a person as president.

Vinny
So you're saying that Biden would be running the third term of Obama?
If that were the worst case, I wouldn't be working on my emergency escape plan.

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:07 pm
by Mountaineer
vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:22 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:13 pm
glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:08 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:24 am
I’m with Winston Churchill on this one. 8)
You have nothing to give but blood, sweat, toil and tears?
Not bad, not bad at all! 8) I am now thinking too of FDR, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself".
And, all this time I thought that THIS was the Churchill quote you had in mind!

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Vinny
That’s a great one too. 8)

Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:05 pm
by Kbg
Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:33 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:05 pm
We'd be going through another four years of the same someone with no qualifications, character, skills for being president.

We well MAY be the greatest country in the world. But the rest of the world cannot believe that a company so great is reduced to putting such a person as president.

Vinny
So you're saying that Biden would be running the third term of Obama?
If that were the worst case, I wouldn't be working on my emergency escape plan.
Where you going? All the ones I would go to are probably too pinko-communist for you. Do tell, I want to know where freedom nirvana is.