Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

[jalanlong]

My biggest fear with a Biden/Harris victory is an escalation of the Covid restrictions. Biden already has a team in place that has been working on a Covid plan to go into effect immediately after he is elected. And a big part of that plan is "One Voice" meaning local regulations will go out the window and we will be in for national mask mandates (even if you live in a town with sparse populations and 0 Covid cases) and constant lockdowns with no articulated end or goal other than to "save lives" and "protect Americans."

I know a lot of people expect the virus to suddenly disappear after Biden wins but I am not that optimistic at all. Given that Covid is the #1 issue among voting Democrats according to polling, I doubt Biden is just going to ignore that once he gets in. And if Fauci becomes a big player in the White House again you can be assured more restrictions are coming.

[Tortoise]

One danger I haven't seen anyone on this thread (or the presidential candidates, for that matter) mention yet is the issue of federal bailouts of various state governments as a result of their destructive Covid-1984 restrictions. We all know that's coming soon.

I suspect both candidates are willing to bail out some states to some extent, but Trump would almost certainly withhold some bailout funds from the blue states with the most oppressive Covid-1984 restrictions and would also attach strings to the funds as a way of incentivizing those states to lift their restrictions sooner. I don't know that for sure, but it seems like something Trump might do.

Biden, by contrast, would be more likely to fully bail out every state, which would effectively be a transfer of wealth to blue states that did the most damage to their economies through Covid-1984 restrictions. That would be unfair to the other states and would introduce moral hazard.

[vnatale]

We'd be going through another four years of the same someone with no qualifications, character, skills for being president.

We well MAY be the greatest country in the world. But the rest of the world cannot believe that a company so great is reduced to putting such a person as president.

Vinny

[glennds]

I’m with Winston Churchill on this one.

You have nothing to give but blood, sweat, toil and tears?

[Mountaineer]

I’m with Winston Churchill on this one.

You have nothing to give but blood, sweat, toil and tears?

Not bad, not bad at all! I am now thinking too of FDR, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself".

[vnatale]

I’m with Winston Churchill on this one.

You have nothing to give but blood, sweat, toil and tears?

Not bad, not bad at all! I am now thinking too of FDR, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself".

And, all this time I thought that THIS was the Churchill quote you had in mind!

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Vinny

[glennds]

I’m with Winston Churchill on this one.

You have nothing to give but blood, sweat, toil and tears?

Not bad, not bad at all! I am now thinking too of FDR, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself".

And, all this time I thought that THIS was the Churchill quote you had in mind!

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Vinny

Then there's also "Americans can always be trusted to do the right thing, after all other possibilities have been exhausted"

I always liked - "The best argument against Democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter"

[glennds]

PP4ME I hope you're right. Here's what I would fear the most...it's a long list.

Permanent national lockdown and mask mandate i.e. with no clearly articulated endpoint. Economy goes into the crapper as a result and we end up with a deep, long, nasty depression, sky high unemployment, and evisceration of small businesses and the restaurant/entertainment industry.

Assuming we agree that all politicians and political parties are self interested, then what is the incentive for Biden or the Democrats to effect a permanent national lockdown? What do they gain from it?

For clarification, I'm not necessarily disputing that a permanent national lockdown is their objective, I'm trying to properly understand WHY it would be their objective.

[glennds]

I’m a Republican basically, more old school Reagan type. “Hey, Tip, let’s sit down and hammer this out.”

Gotta say...Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Bush1, Clinton, Bush2, Obama, Trump...it’s all been good. World hasn’t come to an end with any of them. I’ll shake the hand and be willing to compromise and make common cause with a Democrat, Libertarian, Green Party etc. It’s OK, it really is. I’ve seen a lot of this world and pretty much everyone wants the same things, food, shelter, the ability to provide for themselves and a better life for their children.

Less media in everyone’s life is a good thing. The job of the news is to make news to sell it...we should always remember that.

I fear people who are uncompromising. They normally screw things up and start wars.

I'm right there with you.
Every time is "different". Nothing in this country has ever turned out as badly as what the other side feared.

Unfortunately, fear is a powerful campaign tactic and a good way to manipulate people. The study of evolutionary biology and neuropsychology has revealed that fear is a powerful agent that triggers our primal reptilian brains which then shunts access to the rational thinking centers of the upper neo-cortex. Fear makes us irrational. So does anger.
I'm not sure how anyone could deny that in Trump we have an angry leader who is uniquely effective at inciting fear in ways that no President in recent memory was willing or capable of doing. The trend towards no-holds-barred partisanship that was ushered in by Newt Gingrich contributed to the foundation.
Amp this up with social media, MSM bias, and the proliferation of disinformation and what do you have? An irrational, triggered populace that can no longer think or engage rationally. Telltale signs are paranoia, polarized tribalism, mistrust, unwillingness to engage with the "other side". The perceived threats become not just concerning, but existential. Look around, do you see any of these signs?

As I said in another thread, almost all the political ideologies have some merit. But taken to extreme they all become absurd. When the real chaos sets in, we can only see the other ideologies in extreme, not in moderation. It's like a form of color blindness but instead of color, we cannot see gradation. The left can only be radical Marxist left. The libertarians can only be militia anarchists. The right can only be fascist populists.
Truth is, 99% of any of these groups are not nearly that extreme, but when the triggered blindness sets in we just can't see it.

[Libertarian666]

PP4ME I hope you're right. Here's what I would fear the most...it's a long list.

Permanent national lockdown and mask mandate i.e. with no clearly articulated endpoint. Economy goes into the crapper as a result and we end up with a deep, long, nasty depression, sky high unemployment, and evisceration of small businesses and the restaurant/entertainment industry.

Politicians notice that tax receipts are falling, and of course cutting costs and canceling pork projects is out of the question. Income taxes are increased across the board. Same thing happens on a state level, for both income and property taxes.

New federally mandated online training for employees in "critical race theory" and measures to further hobble law enforcement, release violent criminals from jails, and greatly reduce prosecutions. The current spike in crime in all major cities continues to accelerate and spreads to suburban areas. A whole generation of white kids are brought up to believe the worst about themselves and their country, that the spike in crime is their fault, and that they can't do anything about it and must accept being regularly victimized.

A wealth tax is instituted by the federal government, followed by states eager to take advantage. Investments are hit hard. People with wealth seek to hide assets in whatever way they can. Economy goes further into the crapper. Wealthy people start expatriating from the US since that is now cheaper than staying. The floor for the wealth tax is steadily lowered in order to make up for declining revenue. It starts to hit average retirees, creating a major crisis.

Meanwhile, the "infrastructure" projects fail miserably because they were not well planned. Power blackouts like the ones in California become more common as solar/wind capacity fails to keep up with restrictions on natural gas, oil and coal power. This is further exacerbated by laws promoting electric vehicles.

Sounds awful doesn't it? And yet these are only the items that are already starting to happen, or for which concrete plans already exist. So this is not all that unrealistic of a doomsday scenario.

There might be a few positives though:

Medicare for all - if done right this could rescue the unsustainable health care system. Of course it won't be and things will get even worse, but oh well.

Investments in national infrastructure like roads & bridges. We can only hope, but that is one of the very few things Biden is promising that might garner widespread support.

Anyway, if Biden is elected I would say that the next thread should be about how to protect ourselves.

The only way would be to flee to a less dictatorial country, if you can find one and can get in.
There will be no place to hide here.

[Libertarian666]

We'd be going through another four years of the same someone with no qualifications, character, skills for being president.

We well MAY be the greatest country in the world. But the rest of the world cannot believe that a company so great is reduced to putting such a person as president.

Vinny

So you're saying that Biden would be running the third term of Obama?
If that were the worst case, I wouldn't be working on my emergency escape plan.

[Mountaineer]

I’m with Winston Churchill on this one.

You have nothing to give but blood, sweat, toil and tears?

Not bad, not bad at all! I am now thinking too of FDR, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself".

And, all this time I thought that THIS was the Churchill quote you had in mind!

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Vinny

That’s a great one too.

[Kbg]

We'd be going through another four years of the same someone with no qualifications, character, skills for being president.

We well MAY be the greatest country in the world. But the rest of the world cannot believe that a company so great is reduced to putting such a person as president.

Vinny

So you're saying that Biden would be running the third term of Obama?
If that were the worst case, I wouldn't be working on my emergency escape plan.

Where you going? All the ones I would go to are probably too pinko-communist for you. Do tell, I want to know where freedom nirvana is.

[Libertarian666]

We'd be going through another four years of the same someone with no qualifications, character, skills for being president.

We well MAY be the greatest country in the world. But the rest of the world cannot believe that a company so great is reduced to putting such a person as president.

Vinny

So you're saying that Biden would be running the third term of Obama?
If that were the worst case, I wouldn't be working on my emergency escape plan.

Where you going? All the ones I would go to are probably too pinko-communist for you. Do tell, I want to know where freedom nirvana is.

I have tentative plans that I don't want to share on a message board. Nothing illegal, of course.

I am willing to say that I don't know of any freedom nirvanas.

Given that, what I'm looking for is a small neutral country far from whatever insanity ensues, and which hasn't gone insane with brutal lockdowns and the like.

I have a strong preference for an English-speaking country, with Spanish in a distant second place.

I will also say that if Switzerland were an option, I'd take it even though it isn't English speaking and is in the middle of Europe. I expect that it will remain fairly safe and prosperous, but I just can't afford it.

[WiseOne]

Unfortunately, fear is a powerful campaign tactic and a good way to manipulate people. The study of evolutionary biology and neuropsychology has revealed that fear is a powerful agent that triggers our primal reptilian brains which then shunts access to the rational thinking centers of the upper neo-cortex. Fear makes us irrational. So does anger.
I'm not sure how anyone could deny that in Trump we have an angry leader who is uniquely effective at inciting fear in ways that no President in recent memory was willing or capable of doing.

Wait a sec....

Who is doing the fear mongering again?

At the start of the Trump presidency, I seem to remember that ISIS was terrorizing much of Western Europe as well as the US, while Iran and North Korea were threatening to acquire/test nuclear weapons. Those were scary things. Yes I fully recognize that Trump tried to convince everyone that illegal immigrants were coming in here primarily to commit violent crimes, which was a bit silly, and also talked a lot about the evils of free trade and globalism which frankly contributed a lot to his appeal, because he was right. But, don't you find it interesting that these issues have all somehow managed to disappear? Did that happen by magic or do you think maybe the Trump administration had something to do with it? If so, what does that tell you about who is out to create fear?

The news media are doing way more than Trump is. I don't suppose you've read the headlines recently, but aren't they pretty much all about what you should be scared of today? It's how they make their money. Nobody wants to read about puppies, sunshine and rainbows.

[glennds]

Unfortunately, fear is a powerful campaign tactic and a good way to manipulate people. The study of evolutionary biology and neuropsychology has revealed that fear is a powerful agent that triggers our primal reptilian brains which then shunts access to the rational thinking centers of the upper neo-cortex. Fear makes us irrational. So does anger.
I'm not sure how anyone could deny that in Trump we have an angry leader who is uniquely effective at inciting fear in ways that no President in recent memory was willing or capable of doing.

Wait a sec....

Who is doing the fear mongering again?

At the start of the Trump presidency, I seem to remember that ISIS was terrorizing much of Western Europe as well as the US, while Iran and North Korea were threatening to acquire/test nuclear weapons. Those were scary things. Yes I fully recognize that Trump tried to convince everyone that illegal immigrants were coming in here primarily to commit violent crimes, which was a bit silly, and also talked a lot about the evils of free trade and globalism which frankly contributed a lot to his appeal, because he was right. But, don't you find it interesting that these issues have all somehow managed to disappear? Did that happen by magic or do you think maybe the Trump administration had something to do with it? If so, what does that tell you about who is out to create fear?

The news media are doing way more than Trump is. I don't suppose you've read the headlines recently, but aren't they pretty much all about what you should be scared of today? It's how they make their money. Nobody wants to read about puppies, sunshine and rainbows.

Seriously?
Head over to YouTube and watch either of the Arizona Trump rallies from two days ago and listen to him recite the vividly explicit list of things that will certainly happen if Biden wins the election. The "Left" are the new proxy for the rapists and murderers that were going to flood over the border in hordes but for the Wall. Antifa will take over all your cities and suburbs. You will be living in a country more like Venezuela under permanent lockdown. Watch your 401(k)s disappear. Watch your homes crash in value. But I and only I can save you.
They actually used Village People's Macho Man as one of his intro songs.

What I think is interesting is that the new threat is not Mexicans, North Koreans, ISIS. or any foreign power. The enemy is your fellow Americans. I'm simply saying I don't think this is a healthy trend for a society.

Why do you believe Iran and N. Korea are no longer acquiring and testing nuclear weapons? Not that physical weapons are the next threat anyway, but I digress.

Just to be clear, my comments are only about the effectiveness and destructiveness of fear campaigning and the effect of triggered states on rational thinking. Yes fear is used in the media, and yes fear is used in other venues, but I'm talking about Presidential campaigning.
Not that it is a totally new concept, but the innovation being the drive to existential intensity by Trump which I have not seen in my lifetime, at least in the United States.

[vnatale]

I’m a Republican basically, more old school Reagan type. “Hey, Tip, let’s sit down and hammer this out.”

Gotta say...Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Bush1, Clinton, Bush2, Obama, Trump...it’s all been good. World hasn’t come to an end with any of them. I’ll shake the hand and be willing to compromise and make common cause with a Democrat, Libertarian, Green Party etc. It’s OK, it really is. I’ve seen a lot of this world and pretty much everyone wants the same things, food, shelter, the ability to provide for themselves and a better life for their children.

Less media in everyone’s life is a good thing. The job of the news is to make news to sell it...we should always remember that.

I fear people who are uncompromising. They normally screw things up and start wars.

I'm right there with you.
Every time is "different". Nothing in this country has ever turned out as badly as what the other side feared.

Unfortunately, fear is a powerful campaign tactic and a good way to manipulate people. The study of evolutionary biology and neuropsychology has revealed that fear is a powerful agent that triggers our primal reptilian brains which then shunts access to the rational thinking centers of the upper neo-cortex. Fear makes us irrational. So does anger.
I'm not sure how anyone could deny that in Trump we have an angry leader who is uniquely effective at inciting fear in ways that no President in recent memory was willing or capable of doing. The trend towards no-holds-barred partisanship that was ushered in by Newt Gingrich contributed to the foundation.
Amp this up with social media, MSM bias, and the proliferation of disinformation and what do you have? An irrational, triggered populace that can no longer think or engage rationally. Telltale signs are paranoia, polarized tribalism, mistrust, unwillingness to engage with the "other side". The perceived threats become not just concerning, but existential. Look around, do you see any of these signs?

As I said in another thread, almost all the political ideologies have some merit. But taken to extreme they all become absurd. When the real chaos sets in, we can only see the other ideologies in extreme, not in moderation. It's like a form of color blindness but instead of color, we cannot see gradation. The left can only be radical Marxist left. The libertarians can only be militia anarchists. The right can only be fascist populists.
Truth is, 99% of any of these groups are not nearly that extreme, but when the triggered blindness sets in we just can't see it.

Absolutely!

Vinny

[vnatale]

We'd be going through another four years of the same someone with no qualifications, character, skills for being president.

We well MAY be the greatest country in the world. But the rest of the world cannot believe that a company so great is reduced to putting such a person as president.

Vinny

So you're saying that Biden would be running the third term of Obama?
If that were the worst case, I wouldn't be working on my emergency escape plan.

Of course, a good one by Mr. Libertarian666! I tried to carefully choose my words but, of course, he found a loophole!

Vinny

[vnatale]

Unfortunately, fear is a powerful campaign tactic and a good way to manipulate people. The study of evolutionary biology and neuropsychology has revealed that fear is a powerful agent that triggers our primal reptilian brains which then shunts access to the rational thinking centers of the upper neo-cortex. Fear makes us irrational. So does anger.
I'm not sure how anyone could deny that in Trump we have an angry leader who is uniquely effective at inciting fear in ways that no President in recent memory was willing or capable of doing.

Wait a sec....

Who is doing the fear mongering again?

At the start of the Trump presidency, I seem to remember that ISIS was terrorizing much of Western Europe as well as the US, while Iran and North Korea were threatening to acquire/test nuclear weapons. Those were scary things. Yes I fully recognize that Trump tried to convince everyone that illegal immigrants were coming in here primarily to commit violent crimes, which was a bit silly, and also talked a lot about the evils of free trade and globalism which frankly contributed a lot to his appeal, because he was right. But, don't you find it interesting that these issues have all somehow managed to disappear? Did that happen by magic or do you think maybe the Trump administration had something to do with it? If so, what does that tell you about who is out to create fear?

The news media are doing way more than Trump is. I don't suppose you've read the headlines recently, but aren't they pretty much all about what you should be scared of today? It's how they make their money. Nobody wants to read about puppies, sunshine and rainbows.

Just in the last few days I thought about Trump's intense focus on the caravan for days (weeks?) in the fall of 2018. He even sent the army at the border. Then the election happened and not a peep from him since regarding the caravan. Does anyone know what did happen with that caravan and its effect on our country?

Vinny

[vnatale]

Unfortunately, fear is a powerful campaign tactic and a good way to manipulate people. The study of evolutionary biology and neuropsychology has revealed that fear is a powerful agent that triggers our primal reptilian brains which then shunts access to the rational thinking centers of the upper neo-cortex. Fear makes us irrational. So does anger.
I'm not sure how anyone could deny that in Trump we have an angry leader who is uniquely effective at inciting fear in ways that no President in recent memory was willing or capable of doing.

Wait a sec....

Who is doing the fear mongering again?

At the start of the Trump presidency, I seem to remember that ISIS was terrorizing much of Western Europe as well as the US, while Iran and North Korea were threatening to acquire/test nuclear weapons. Those were scary things. Yes I fully recognize that Trump tried to convince everyone that illegal immigrants were coming in here primarily to commit violent crimes, which was a bit silly, and also talked a lot about the evils of free trade and globalism which frankly contributed a lot to his appeal, because he was right. But, don't you find it interesting that these issues have all somehow managed to disappear? Did that happen by magic or do you think maybe the Trump administration had something to do with it? If so, what does that tell you about who is out to create fear?

The news media are doing way more than Trump is. I don't suppose you've read the headlines recently, but aren't they pretty much all about what you should be scared of today? It's how they make their money. Nobody wants to read about puppies, sunshine and rainbows.

Seriously?
Head over to YouTube and watch either of the Arizona Trump rallies from two days ago and listen to him recite the vividly explicit list of things that will certainly happen if Biden wins the election. The "Left" are the new proxy for the rapists and murderers that were going to flood over the border in hordes but for the Wall. Antifa will take over all your cities and suburbs. You will be living in a country more like Venezuela under permanent lockdown. Watch your 401(k)s disappear. Watch your homes crash in value. But I and only I can save you.
They actually used Village People's Macho Man as one of his intro songs.

What I think is interesting is that the new threat is not Mexicans, North Koreans, ISIS. or any foreign power. The enemy is your fellow Americans. I'm simply saying I don't think this is a healthy trend for a society.

Why do you believe Iran and N. Korea are no longer acquiring and testing nuclear weapons? Not that physical weapons are the next threat anyway, but I digress.

Just to be clear, my comments are only about the effectiveness and destructiveness of fear campaigning and the effect of triggered states on rational thinking. Yes fear is used in the media, and yes fear is used in other venues, but I'm talking about Presidential campaigning.
Not that it is a totally new concept, but the innovation being the drive to existential intensity by Trump which I have not seen in my lifetime, at least in the United States.

That is because if you look up the definition of "sui generis" you will see Trump used an an example! There are SO many aspects to Trump's presidency that NONE of us have EVER seen in our lifetimes.

Vinny

[vnatale]

Head over to YouTube and watch either of the Arizona Trump rallies from two days ago and listen to him recite the vividly explicit list of things that will certainly happen if Biden wins the election. The "Left" are the new proxy for the rapists and murderers that were going to flood over the border in hordes but for the Wall. Antifa will take over all your cities and suburbs. You will be living in a country more like Venezuela under permanent lockdown. Watch your 401(k)s disappear.

So, the thing is, Portland is a disaster right now because of liberal politicians in control. So, yes, if Biden won presidency, it’s certainly possible every city would look like Portland.

I’ve read Biden’s 401k plan, and if enacted, yes, my 401k would disappear.

I’ve read Biden’s gun control plan, and if enacted, yes, my gun collection would disappear.

I’ve heard Biden discuss his plans for lockdowns and masks, and if enacted, yes, it would be awful.

So while I admit Biden probably can’t do all of the things he’s promising, if he does, I’m fucked. These are things Biden himself is claiming, not things trump is inventing.

Stipulating all you say is true....how many of those things can Biden do on his own? Does he not need the support of both parts of Congress?

I remind you that when Obama was elected the Democrats were in control of both houses of Congress. Yet he had to exert every once of his political capital to get the Affordable Care Act passed by the barest of margins.

All you name above needs to be passed by majorities in both houses. Majorities that have to be confident that their votes will not jeopardize their re-elections. How likely do you find that to happen?

Vinny

[Tortoise]

I find it amusing that the left-leaning folks here seem to be saying that the majority of the fearmongering has been coming from Trump's campaign and not Biden's.

Isn't it the Dems who've said in both 2016 and 2020 that if Trump is elected, the white supremacists lurking behind every tree will come out and wreak havoc? Isn't it the Dems who've said that if Trump is elected, his divisive rhetoric will incite new wars with foreign nations? And isn't it Biden's campaign that says if Trump is reelected, many more people will die of Covid-1984 because the American people didn't allow Biden to save their lives with his nationwide lockdown? All of that definitely sounds like fearmongering to me.

There is fearmongering on both sides. The difference seems to be that the things Trump is warning us about are real dangers (albeit sometimes exaggerated for showmanship), whereas the things the Dems are warning us about are imaginary and not supported by the evidence of Trump's first four years as President.

[doodle]

The way I look at it..One way or another the masses in society are going to eventually figure out a way to rebalance the growing inequality. In the past traditionally this was done through revolutions and people losing heads. In the 1930s revolution was averted and capitalism was saved by Roosevelt's new deal and the lucky timing of world war two for our nation. This pot has again been simmering away since the occupy and tea party movements during the last crash and that simmer occasionally reached a full boil at points in the last few months. I'm not advocating the merits of any particular solution, I'm just looking at things from a historical perspective. Things have become unbalanced and although you can make appeals to all the philosophical rights that you want, they don't really exist in a world that is governed by force when all is said and done.

[Tortoise]

The way I look at it..One way or another the masses in society are going to eventually figure out a way to rebalance the growing inequality. In the past traditionally this was done through revolutions and people losing heads. In the 1930s revolution was averted and capitalism was saved by Roosevelt's new deal and the lucky timing of world war two for our nation. This pot has again been simmering away since the occupy and tea party movements during the last crash and that simmer occasionally reached a full boil at points in the last few months.

This isn't a great uprising by the poor working class.

The majority of the Antifa/BLM thugs who've been committing most of the vandalism and violence over the past several months aren't the downtrodden and oppressed. They're mostly middle-class white kids who live in their parents' comfortable basements rent-free, playing Call of Duty by day and rioting in black bloc costumes by night. The rest of them are college students -- usually transgender English Literature majors with purple hair.

[pp4me]

I remind you that when Obama was elected the Democrats were in control of both houses of Congress. Yet he had to exert every once of his political capital to get the Affordable Care Act passed by the barest of margins.

All you name above needs to be passed by majorities in both houses. Majorities that have to be confident that their votes will not jeopardize their re-elections. How likely do you find that to happen?

Vinny

People do seem to forget that the voters have the power to stomp on the brakes two years after a presidential election if they think things are getting out of control. That's exactly what happened with the passage of ObamaCare just as you are saying. The Dems lost 63 seats in Congress giving the Reps a majority in 2010.

Same thing happened with Hillary Care which led to the successful Republican "Contract with America". I believe it was during the State of the Union speech that year that Clinton famously declared that "the era of big government is over" (it wasn't, of course).