Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by doodle » Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:42 pm

I still don't see how we ever get back to the America of yore though. That ship has sailed I think. We are moving into unchartered waters especially with the increasing importance of the information economy and automation. Capitalism will have a lot of disruptive events to deal with over the next few decades. Hopefully moderate sane voices will prevail and we don't cut off our nose to spite our face in the process.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Kbg » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:02 am

I find this board excessively negative, sometimes to the point where I seriously think of leaving it.

Humans are highly resilient. optimists with a positive vision of the future and a plan to get there have pretty much driven historical advancement.

99.9% of all past humans most likely would trade places with us in a nanosecond.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:14 am

tomfoolery wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:57 pm
doodle wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:46 pm
Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:30 pm
doodle wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:03 pm
to our country where the bottom 50% of our nation's holds only 1% of the wealth...and the bottom 80% owning less than 10% of wealth. This is a problem.
Can you articulate what the problem is? Unlike previous situations where there's been war or revolution or plague, the bottom 90% of society is not actually starving. As long as everyone has enough, does it matter how much the rich have?
Sounds logical....too bad humans aren't too logical. It is the disparity that matters though as that is what breeds resentment. The same thing happens on a team where one star player makes all the money and lives in a mansion while the other players live in little 2 bedroom houses. When the team keeps winning championships and the star players salary keeps rising while the other players keep making the same thing eventually they are going to hate that star player. Humans have this inbuilt mechanism for perceived fairness. They can accept some level of difference but when the differences become too great...as in 80% owning just 7% of wealth then shit hits the fan.
Yup. It’s known as Kantian fairness and doodle is spot on.


"Envy almost certainly operates efficiently only as regards nearby neighbors. It is not directed toward the distant rich. Hence, at a time when the individual's real income is rising, the fact that unknown New Yorkers or Texans are exceedingly wealthy is not, probably, a matter of prime urgency."
- John Kenneth Galbraith, The Affluent Society.

Poor fella couldn't foresee the internet and social media.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by doodle » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:43 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:14 am
tomfoolery wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:57 pm
doodle wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:46 pm
Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:30 pm
doodle wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 2:03 pm
to our country where the bottom 50% of our nation's holds only 1% of the wealth...and the bottom 80% owning less than 10% of wealth. This is a problem.
Can you articulate what the problem is? Unlike previous situations where there's been war or revolution or plague, the bottom 90% of society is not actually starving. As long as everyone has enough, does it matter how much the rich have?
Sounds logical....too bad humans aren't too logical. It is the disparity that matters though as that is what breeds resentment. The same thing happens on a team where one star player makes all the money and lives in a mansion while the other players live in little 2 bedroom houses. When the team keeps winning championships and the star players salary keeps rising while the other players keep making the same thing eventually they are going to hate that star player. Humans have this inbuilt mechanism for perceived fairness. They can accept some level of difference but when the differences become too great...as in 80% owning just 7% of wealth then shit hits the fan.
Yup. It’s known as Kantian fairness and doodle is spot on.


"Envy almost certainly operates efficiently only as regards nearby neighbors. It is not directed toward the distant rich. Hence, at a time when the individual's real income is rising, the fact that unknown New Yorkers or Texans are exceedingly wealthy is not, probably, a matter of prime urgency."
- John Kenneth Galbraith, The Affluent Society.

Poor fella couldn't foresee the internet and social media.
Certainly changed the game.
Kbg wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:02 am
I find this board excessively negative, sometimes to the point where I seriously think of leaving it.

Humans are highly resilient. optimists with a positive vision of the future and a plan to get there have pretty much driven historical advancement.

99.9% of all past humans most likely would trade places with us in a nanosecond.
While I agree with the last statement I also think we are in an exceptional uncharted period of human advancement. I'm not as optimistic as you regarding humans unfortunately and it remains to be seen how long we last as a species. After all, we are a very new addition to this planet some 2-3 million years ago and relative to cockroaches at around 300 million years have a long way to go to cement our viability. An interesting fact many don't know is that nine species of humans used to exist...only we survived and many times came very close to extinction ourselves. The average lifespan historically of a civilization is around 300 years. The world system of nation states itself is only a few hundred years old..less than that in some areas of the world. And our history while full of incredible advancements and reasons for optimism is also full of periods of intense suffering and devastation. So, while I admire our cleverness as a species I fear that it sometimes gets us into a lot of trouble
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by doodle » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:57 am

While our political melee and racial issues are concerning and a manifestation of our dysfunction as a species...I'm much more concerned about our ability to cope with climate change. Ironically it's not even a Black swan event. We have known for quite sometime that this is going to present challenges. I also think that we are on track to see the more extreme timeline of IPCC predictions. Classical civilizations had issues with barbarians at the gates...our big challenge will be ecological I think.

Optimism is great...but pessimism also plays an important role in keeping the species alive. Have to keep your eyes on the horizon and open for oncoming threats
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Xan » Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:16 am

You don't have to capitalize the "Black" in "black swan". It isn't an African-American swan.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Oct 22, 2020 11:53 am

MangoMan wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:53 am
Xan wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:16 am
You don't have to capitalize the "Black" in "black swan". It isn't an African-American swan.
Damn autocorrect! :P
The swans forgive you! Nice to know you are human and not a Biden replicate. ;D
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Smith1776 » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:35 pm

Black swans matter.
I still find the James Rickards portfolio fascinating.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by jhogue » Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:58 pm

doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:57 am
While our political melee and racial issues are concerning and a manifestation of our dysfunction as a species...I'm much more concerned about our ability to cope with climate change. Ironically it's not even a Black swan event. We have known for quite sometime that this is going to present challenges. I also think that we are on track to see the more extreme timeline of IPCC predictions. Classical civilizations had issues with barbarians at the gates...our big challenge will be ecological I think.

Optimism is great...but pessimism also plays an important role in keeping the species alive. Have to keep your eyes on the horizon and open for oncoming threats
doodle:
Before you give in to environmental despair, you need to read Julian Simon's The Ultimate Resource, a serious study of the role of human innovation in history.

Simon was an academic, but became popular when he made a bet (and won) against Paul Ehrlich, author of the very popular, but now totally discredited book, The Population Bomb. Basically, Ehrlich adhered to a theory of resource depletion: Simon believed human imagination is the greatest of all natural resources. They bet on the future prices of five natural resources. Ehrlich lost the bet, and lost very badly.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by doodle » Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:43 pm

jhogue wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:58 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:57 am
While our political melee and racial issues are concerning and a manifestation of our dysfunction as a species...I'm much more concerned about our ability to cope with climate change. Ironically it's not even a Black swan event. We have known for quite sometime that this is going to present challenges. I also think that we are on track to see the more extreme timeline of IPCC predictions. Classical civilizations had issues with barbarians at the gates...our big challenge will be ecological I think.

Optimism is great...but pessimism also plays an important role in keeping the species alive. Have to keep your eyes on the horizon and open for oncoming threats
doodle:
Before you give in to environmental despair, you need to read Julian Simon's The Ultimate Resource, a serious study of the role of human innovation in history.

Simon was an academic, but became popular when he made a bet (and won) against Paul Ehrlich, author of the very popular, but now totally discredited book, The Population Bomb. Basically, Ehrlich adhered to a theory of resource depletion: Simon believed human imagination is the greatest of all natural resources. They bet on the future prices of five natural resources. Ehrlich lost the bet, and lost very badly.
Possibly...I could be wrong. Would be great if I was. Timeline does matter though....humans often work with too short of a time scale being that 100 years seems so long to us but is the blink of an eye really. Peak oil has come and gone. With new extraction technology it is clear that if we burn all the hydrocarbons we are capable of economically extracting we are probably going to melt both poles. Risky behavior can generate big wins but also big losses. I prefer the slow and steady approach.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Kbg » Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:45 pm

Well notionally this board is primarily about a financial methodology so let’s go somewhat relevant.

Loss aversion/endowment effect

Loss aversion is the tendency for people to strongly prefer avoiding losses than obtaining gains. Closely related to loss aversion is the endowment effect, which occurs when people place a higher value on a good that they own than on an identical good that they do not own. The loss aversion or endowment effect can lead to poor and irrational investment decisions, whereby investors refuse to sell loss-making investments in the hope of making their money back.

The loss-aversion tendency breaks one of the cardinal rules of economics; the measurement of opportunity cost. To be a successful investor over time you must be able to properly measure opportunity cost and not be anchored to past investment decisions due to the inbuilt human tendency to avoid losses. Investors who become anchored due to loss aversion will pass on mouth-watering investment opportunities to retain an existing loss-making investment in the hope of recouping their losses.

Generally it is a better bet to be forward looking than backward looking. Optimism is generally forward looking, pessimism is rearward looking.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by vnatale » Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:59 pm

Kbg wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:45 pm
Well notionally this board is primarily about a financial methodology so let’s go somewhat relevant.

Loss aversion/endowment effect

Loss aversion is the tendency for people to strongly prefer avoiding losses than obtaining gains. Closely related to loss aversion is the endowment effect, which occurs when people place a higher value on a good that they own than on an identical good that they do not own. The loss aversion or endowment effect can lead to poor and irrational investment decisions, whereby investors refuse to sell loss-making investments in the hope of making their money back.

The loss-aversion tendency breaks one of the cardinal rules of economics; the measurement of opportunity cost. To be a successful investor over time you must be able to properly measure opportunity cost and not be anchored to past investment decisions due to the inbuilt human tendency to avoid losses. Investors who become anchored due to loss aversion will pass on mouth-watering investment opportunities to retain an existing loss-making investment in the hope of recouping their losses.

Generally it is a better bet to be forward looking than backward looking. Optimism is generally forward looking, pessimism is rearward looking.
Adding to your excellent description above...I've many times read that people "feel" twice the pain from a loss than they do joy from the equivalent gain.

Vinny
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Xan » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:11 pm

"The Undoing Project" by Michael Lewis deals with this. We handle losses by "undoing" them in our head: "if X had been different, then that would have changed the outcome". And there are interesting discussions of what exactly constitutes a "loss": for example, it can be "losing" something you don't have yet but that you expect with some degree of certainty. Highly recommended.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:13 pm

jhogue wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 12:58 pm
doodle wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:57 am
While our political melee and racial issues are concerning and a manifestation of our dysfunction as a species...I'm much more concerned about our ability to cope with climate change. Ironically it's not even a Black swan event. We have known for quite sometime that this is going to present challenges. I also think that we are on track to see the more extreme timeline of IPCC predictions. Classical civilizations had issues with barbarians at the gates...our big challenge will be ecological I think.

Optimism is great...but pessimism also plays an important role in keeping the species alive. Have to keep your eyes on the horizon and open for oncoming threats
doodle:
Before you give in to environmental despair, you need to read Julian Simon's The Ultimate Resource, a serious study of the role of human innovation in history.

Simon was an academic, but became popular when he made a bet (and won) against Paul Ehrlich, author of the very popular, but now totally discredited book, The Population Bomb. Basically, Ehrlich adhered to a theory of resource depletion: Simon believed human imagination is the greatest of all natural resources. They bet on the future prices of five natural resources. Ehrlich lost the bet, and lost very badly.
I think Matt Ridley also has written a book detailing all of the catastrophes that we were in for, and the un-anticipated solutions that solved the problems.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Kbg » Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:55 pm

I'm not so pollyanish (sp?) that I don't think bad things happen. Human history is as correctly pointed out filled with bad things and bad stretches. But the fact is as a species we are at the top of the evolutionary food chain for two reasons: Our large brains and teamwork. With these two we've thus far proven pretty adaptive at making necessary changes to improve our lot.

I chose to be an optimist, studies on this strongly indicate I'm a happier person because of this mental approach.

I think many on the board don't have a long view of things forward or backward either. Just in terms of the quite short history of the United States we have had periods far worse than this in terms of political contention. By way of severity obviously the Civil War was the worst, second would be the time right after the revolutionary war when the losing side basically got forcibly ejected to Canada, the UK or the Caribbean, third probably the early 1900s labor movement, fourth the 60s. I put the current climate similar to the Andrew Jackson/James Quincy Adams period. It's not a bad analogy at all for the current times we are in.

One of the great disappointments (well minor but memorable) of my life was when I found out that this quote:

"Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be." was probably not from the purported Abraham Lincoln but probably from a seller of positive thinking books/magazines in the early 1900s.

I deliberately put a small picture of this quote on my desk facing forward for years when I was in senior management...very deliberately. Pessimists bring problems to the boss looking for a fix, optimists bring solutions to problems. I found exceptions to this general rule very rare indeed.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by vnatale » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:06 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:11 pm
"The Undoing Project" by Michael Lewis deals with this. We handle losses by "undoing" them in our head: "if X had been different, then that would have changed the outcome". And there are interesting discussions of what exactly constitutes a "loss": for example, it can be "losing" something you don't have yet but that you expect with some degree of certainty. Highly recommended.
Read the book two or three weeks ago. Started off compelling reading but then I had to force myself to finish it.

Vinny
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by vnatale » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:09 pm

Kbg wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 8:55 pm
I'm not so pollyanish (sp?) that I don't think bad things happen. Human history is as correctly pointed out filled with bad things and bad stretches. But the fact is as a species we are at the top of the evolutionary food chain for two reasons: Our large brains and teamwork. With these two we've thus far proven pretty adaptive at making necessary changes to improve our lot.

I chose to be an optimist, studies on this strongly indicate I'm a happier person because of this mental approach.

I think many on the board don't have a long view of things forward or backward either. Just in terms of the quite short history of the United States we have had periods far worse than this in terms of political contention. By way of severity obviously the Civil War was the worst, second would be the time right after the revolutionary war when the losing side basically got forcibly ejected to Canada, the UK or the Caribbean, third probably the early 1900s labor movement, fourth the 60s. I put the current climate similar to the Andrew Jackson/James Quincy Adams period. It's not a bad analogy at all for the current times we are in.

One of the great disappointments (well minor but memorable) of my life was when I found out that this quote:

"Most folks are about as happy as they make up their minds to be." was probably not from the purported Abraham Lincoln but probably from a seller of positive thinking books/magazines in the early 1900s.

I deliberately put a small picture of this quote on my desk facing forward for years when I was in senior management...very deliberately. Pessimists bring problems to the boss looking for a fix, optimists bring solutions to problems. I found exceptions to this general rule very rare indeed.
Based upon your recommendation several weeks ago bought "Thinking In Time". It is inches away from me on my table as I finished reading it in the last few days.

The two authors make many good arguments of how with just a modicum review of history a lot of poor political decisions would not have been made.

Currently how often do you use the principles from that book and what is your adapted process (since the book was aimed to policy makes and not every day people like us)?

Vinny

Vinny
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Kbg » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:44 pm

Vinny,

It's one of the most influential books I've ever read regarding how I think. I don't know if I use it daily, but I'm sure my writing indicates I'm usually pretty dialed into why thing came to be historically which extends often to why things are the way they are today. It takes a ton of effort because you have to fill up the brain bucket with a lot of history, but once the bucket gets filled sufficiently its freaky how much continuity there is in things and how utterly predictable people and organization's reactions can be to things.

Of course we can't become experts in all that exists. For me personally, I think I'm better than most in economics and markets and associated history and in political/area history for the US, Asia and the Middle East. Outside these areas I'm just another windbag posting my opinions on the internet to kill time and have some fun.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Kbg » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:55 pm

I forgot to directly answer the use in practical day to day life question. On an interpersonal level super helpful. Let's say there is someone that you have a hard time getting along with. If you really get to know them you can begin to piece together why they are they way they are and in my experience you begin to understand what triggers them in some way, why they behave the way they behave, why they hold the opinions they do. As a nice side bonus in most cases you develop empathy for them and something(s) that may have driven you nuts no longer bother your.

Its really just the walk a hundred miles in their moccasins thing.

Here's a small bit on me...kbg dislikes uncompromising extremists. He thinks they are dangerous and destructive. Why because kbg has spent a lot of time where this thing is the norm and he hopes his children and grandchildren never have to live in similar conditions.
Last edited by Kbg on Thu Oct 22, 2020 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by vnatale » Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:59 pm

Kbg wrote:
Thu Oct 22, 2020 9:55 pm
I forgot to directly answer the use in practical day to day life question. On an interpersonal level super helpful. Let's say there is someone that you have a hard time getting along with. If you really get to know them you can begin to piece together why they are they way they are and in my experience you begin to understand what triggers them in some way, why they behave the way they behave, why they hold the opinions they do. As a nice side bonus in most cases you develop empathy for them and something(s) that may have driven you nuts no longer bother your.

Its really just the walk a hundred miles in their moccasins thing.
It takes some skills to be able to do what you describe above. No doubt extremely helpful. But not easy to do.

Vinny
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by WiseOne » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:06 am

Kbg wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:27 pm
WiseOne wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:10 pm
Well in truth there is a large group of Americans who have seen their living standard decline. That's the real problem, not "income inequality". If you're a solid, high school educated factory worker earning a good wage and enjoying a solidly middle class standard of living with home ownership, retirement savings, college for the kids and all the rest of it, what do you care how much Bill Gates makes?

Of course, this guy is either unemployed or forced to work at McDonald's, because there aren't any factory jobs left and at age 45 or so, it's a bit much to ask him to learn software engineering. Plus he'd have to compete with all those H1b's from India who are willing to work for peanuts just for the chance to get into the US.

See anything wrong with this picture? Hint, it's not the income inequality itself, it's the factors that led to it. That's why I'm interested in Trump's worldview. He's the only candidate in either party so far who has managed to identify the real problem, which leads to real solutions that aren't the "Robin Hood" approach that everyone else takes. If they care at all, which by and large they don't.
WiseOne rang the bell on this observation...personally I think this is the tragedy of Trump. He was absolutely on to something in 2016 and assembled an outstanding team that could have made some excellent progress in this area. But then, well, he’s just himself. Watching him in 2016 it was apparent, and crystal clear about 6mos into 2017 that he really has zero leadership skill and a complete inability to form a team with non family members.
Yeah that's a fair assessment. Too bad a person with Trump's worldview and high quality leadership skills isn't one of the Presidential election options, so it's all about picking your poison. (However - he DID make some "excellent progress" in fact...just not as much as you maybe hoped.)

FWIW, between Joe Biden's dementia and Kamala Harris' nasty "mean girl" vibe, I don't expect either of them to be significantly better than Trump at team & consensus building. That may turn out to be a blessing, given what could happen if they actually managed to accomplish any of their stated objectives.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by vnatale » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:49 am

WiseOne wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:06 am
Kbg wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:27 pm
WiseOne wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 4:10 pm
Well in truth there is a large group of Americans who have seen their living standard decline. That's the real problem, not "income inequality". If you're a solid, high school educated factory worker earning a good wage and enjoying a solidly middle class standard of living with home ownership, retirement savings, college for the kids and all the rest of it, what do you care how much Bill Gates makes?

Of course, this guy is either unemployed or forced to work at McDonald's, because there aren't any factory jobs left and at age 45 or so, it's a bit much to ask him to learn software engineering. Plus he'd have to compete with all those H1b's from India who are willing to work for peanuts just for the chance to get into the US.

See anything wrong with this picture? Hint, it's not the income inequality itself, it's the factors that led to it. That's why I'm interested in Trump's worldview. He's the only candidate in either party so far who has managed to identify the real problem, which leads to real solutions that aren't the "Robin Hood" approach that everyone else takes. If they care at all, which by and large they don't.
WiseOne rang the bell on this observation...personally I think this is the tragedy of Trump. He was absolutely on to something in 2016 and assembled an outstanding team that could have made some excellent progress in this area. But then, well, he’s just himself. Watching him in 2016 it was apparent, and crystal clear about 6mos into 2017 that he really has zero leadership skill and a complete inability to form a team with non family members.
Yeah that's a fair assessment. Too bad a person with Trump's worldview and high quality leadership skills isn't one of the Presidential election options, so it's all about picking your poison. (However - he DID make some "excellent progress" in fact...just not as much as you maybe hoped.)

FWIW, between Joe Biden's dementia and Kamala Harris' nasty "mean girl" vibe, I don't expect either of them to be significantly better than Trump at team & consensus building. That may turn out to be a blessing, given what could happen if they actually managed to accomplish any of their stated objectives.
This is oftentimes stated. However it did not seem to be evident in last night's debate. Maybe in Trump, though? Can you as a medical person explain how Trump supplying "goggles" helped reduce the spread of the virus?

Vinny
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:32 pm

Not much has changed since 1951.

“Overshadowing all nations are the dark storm clouds that loom with the threat of World War III. At such a time all human life is dominated by a sense of uncertainty, now bound up with a general and alienating disillusionment. All the expectations and hopes that allowed individuals and nations to survive World War II have, within a few years, proven illusory. This great disillusionment actually stretches out over everything by which modern man has lived. Now, finally, the belief in progress with which humanity entered the 20th century lies in shambles. All the ideas and ideals for which men have fought and suffered since 1914, for which millions have gone to their death and for which they are now expected to die again, have turned out to be phantoms: nationalism and internationalism, fascism and pacifism, democracy and totalitarianism, liberalism and socialism, communism and patriarchalism. is there a politician left whom we can take seriously as still believing in the ideals for which he would let millions perish? The results of this general disillusionment—this destruction of the last things that human beings, estranged from the Christian faith, still had as substitutes for the lost religion—will be fearful. What is a man when he has nothing left to believe in?”

— We Confess Anthology by Hermann Sasse
https://a.co/5Y8QSRK
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
glennds
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by glennds » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:40 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:06 am
Kbg wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:27 pm

WiseOne rang the bell on this observation...personally I think this is the tragedy of Trump. He was absolutely on to something in 2016 and assembled an outstanding team that could have made some excellent progress in this area. But then, well, he’s just himself. Watching him in 2016 it was apparent, and crystal clear about 6mos into 2017 that he really has zero leadership skill and a complete inability to form a team with non family members.
Yeah that's a fair assessment. Too bad a person with Trump's worldview and high quality leadership skills isn't one of the Presidential election options, so it's all about picking your poison. (However - he DID make some "excellent progress" in fact...just not as much as you maybe hoped.)

FWIW, between Joe Biden's dementia and Kamala Harris' nasty "mean girl" vibe, I don't expect either of them to be significantly better than Trump at team & consensus building. That may turn out to be a blessing, given what could happen if they actually managed to accomplish any of their stated objectives.
How would you rate Obama as a team builder and team manager? What about Bush 43 or Clinton?

Interestingly when it comes to foreign relations and international affairs, I would say Bush 41 recruited and managed a superb team. I'm talking about James A. Baker, Brent Scowcroft, Robert Gates and a handful of others, Baker being the star and to this day the gold standard for Secretaries of State. And there was almost no turnover in Bush 41's team, at least the foreign relations component.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Jim Burnham » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:53 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:49 am

This is oftentimes stated. However it did not seem to be evident in last night's debate. Maybe in Trump, though? Can you as a medical person explain how Trump supplying "goggles" helped reduce the spread of the virus?

Vinny
I am not a medical professional of any kind and will certainly defer to anyone on here who is. But my guess is that the reference to "goggles" has to do with viral particles getting into the body through the eyes, which is AFAIK a theorized vector of how Covid-19 spreads. This year I have seen doctors and dentists wearing goggles and suppose it is for this reason.
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