Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

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tomfoolery
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Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by tomfoolery » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:52 pm

It seems to me most here are either liberals or libertarians with few to no republicans. The libertarians are hoping trump wins as the lesser of two evils.

What do you fear if the wrong side wins?

If Biden wins, I’m afraid of:

Increased taxation on my investment income

Decreased ability to contribute the $57k annually to a solo 401k since he wants to slash limits on those

Forced retirement or forced 80% pay cut due to federal invocation of California AB5 whereby I can no longer be an independent contractor who makes 3x what an FTE makes for doing a similar job (albeit more poorly, which is why they pay me more). Further, being a 1099 contractor allows me significant tax benefits that would be gone if I became an employee for an effective 80% pay cut.

Gun control that either turns me into a criminal by virtue of not turning guns or “high capacity” magazines in, or radicalizes my friends into doing something that will ruin our lives if it becomes something they can’t otherwise live with

Increased ammo prices making it harder to practice and remain proficient. Currently 9mm is 400% higher in price than 6 months ago, partly due to BLM rioting (which is the fault of liberal mayors) and partly due to Biden’s chance of winning and banning or heavily taxing ammo purchases.

Ammo background checks like in California that will hurt my privacy. And possibly lead to federal agents asking me why I am buying 10k rounds of ammo a year.

Stripping rule of law from cities, defunding and neutering police, making cities unlivable. Imagine every city at all times in perpetuity being like BLM riots.

The housing market continuing to soar, making it impossible to ever own a home without going into massive debt since the Dems will push more housing-related stimulus which by definition will make houses more expensive and I’m clearly wealthy since I earn over $200k a year so I won’t qualify for the benefit but I’ll pay the price in increasing housing costs.

Economic shutdowns and nationwide mask wearing mandate.

Supreme Court packing.

Biden getting impeached from his Ukraine shenanigans or dying of old age and the evil c-word Kalama becoming president.

We’re in for a shitty 4 years... no, shitty rest of our life, if he wins.

Although, to the intensity I’m afraid of all these things happening, liberals shared a similar intensity against trump winning in 2016 and I don’t think our country has been destroyed in the last 4 years, at least not for anything trump has done. So probably my fears are all similarly unfounded.

But fortunately I’m basically financially independent so I’m in a position to “shrug” if he forbids me from being an independent contractor or limits my 401k or raises investment taxes. Fuck it, I’ll stop working, live very cheaply, shelter assets and qualify for democrat sponsored welfare programs. I’m not going to go from making $200k net after taxes as an independent contractor down to making $40k net after taxes as a W2. Screw that.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Kbg » Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:45 am

I’m a Republican basically, more old school Reagan type. “Hey, Tip, let’s sit down and hammer this out.”

Gotta say...Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Bush1, Clinton, Bush2, Obama, Trump...it’s all been good. World hasn’t come to an end with any of them. I’ll shake the hand and be willing to compromise and make common cause with a Democrat, Libertarian, Green Party etc. It’s OK, it really is. I’ve seen a lot of this world and pretty much everyone wants the same things, food, shelter, the ability to provide for themselves and a better life for their children.

Less media in everyone’s life is a good thing. The job of the news is to make news to sell it...we should always remember that.

I fear people who are uncompromising. They normally screw things up and start wars.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by pugchief » Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:47 am

Kbg wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 3:45 am

Gotta say...Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Bush1, Clinton, Bush2, Obama, Trump...it’s all been good. World hasn’t come to an end with any of them. I’ll shake the hand and be willing to compromise and make common cause with a Democrat, Libertarian, Green Party etc. It’s OK, it really is. I’ve seen a lot of this world and pretty much everyone wants the same things, food, shelter, the ability to provide for themselves and a better life for their children.
True. But this time seems different. The Dems have been moving left for years, but there has been a seismic shift in the last 4 years, and they are off the rails crazy now. I think Tomfoolery's summary is excellent, and much of what we can hope to expect. I hope we're wrong, but I hope I don't have to find out even more.

BTW, Tom, you forgot to mention how Critical Race Theory and other things like it will invade and ruin our lives, particularly if you are a straight white male.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by pp4me » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:17 am

I take comfort in knowing that Biden is a lying politician and 47 year swamp creature who will say anything to get elected. He'll have to toss a few bones to the progressives here and there but hopefully he'll focus mainly on enriching himself and his family and leave the rest of us alone.

As for Kamala, I think she's a wholly owned subsidiary of the billionaire class that runs the country and isn't going to rock the boat all that much.

If either one of them was a Donald Trump who actually does the things he says I'd be more worried.

Also, I'm assuming there will still be another election in two years if they get too crazy.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:24 am

I’m with Winston Churchill on this one. 8)
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:30 am

pp4me wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:17 am
I take comfort in knowing that Biden is a lying politician and 47 year swamp creature who will say anything to get elected. He'll have to toss a few bones to the progressives here and there but hopefully he'll focus mainly on enriching himself and his family and leave the rest of us alone.

As for Kamala, I think she's a wholly owned subsidiary of the billionaire class that runs the country and isn't going to rock the boat all that much.

If either one of them was a Donald Trump who actually does the things he says I'd be more worried.

Also, I'm assuming there will still be another election in two years if they get too crazy.
Great post.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:33 am

Which is not to say that I have no fears about it.

If Trump wins, I fear that the Antifa and Hollywood and Media and Tech assault will be 5 times what it is now, and will be extremely dangerous to the country.

If Biden/Harris win, I fear that the lefties will be empowered and thus all of their tactics will continue, just not with as much shrieking.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Oct 20, 2020 9:35 am

I can imagine in newsrooms on the day the winner is clear, the street reporter assignment is going to be to go out and find a purple haired 20 year old woman who is wailing either in agony or ecstasy.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by sophie » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:11 am

pp4me wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:17 am
I take comfort in knowing that Biden is a lying politician and 47 year swamp creature who will say anything to get elected. He'll have to toss a few bones to the progressives here and there but hopefully he'll focus mainly on enriching himself and his family and leave the rest of us alone.

As for Kamala, I think she's a wholly owned subsidiary of the billionaire class that runs the country and isn't going to rock the boat all that much.

If either one of them was a Donald Trump who actually does the things he says I'd be more worried.

Also, I'm assuming there will still be another election in two years if they get too crazy.
PP4ME I hope you're right. Here's what I would fear the most...it's a long list.

Permanent national lockdown and mask mandate i.e. with no clearly articulated endpoint. Economy goes into the crapper as a result and we end up with a deep, long, nasty depression, sky high unemployment, and evisceration of small businesses and the restaurant/entertainment industry.

Politicians notice that tax receipts are falling, and of course cutting costs and canceling pork projects is out of the question. Income taxes are increased across the board. Same thing happens on a state level, for both income and property taxes.

New federally mandated online training for employees in "critical race theory" and measures to further hobble law enforcement, release violent criminals from jails, and greatly reduce prosecutions. The current spike in crime in all major cities continues to accelerate and spreads to suburban areas. A whole generation of white kids are brought up to believe the worst about themselves and their country, that the spike in crime is their fault, and that they can't do anything about it and must accept being regularly victimized.

A wealth tax is instituted by the federal government, followed by states eager to take advantage. Investments are hit hard. People with wealth seek to hide assets in whatever way they can. Economy goes further into the crapper. Wealthy people start expatriating from the US since that is now cheaper than staying. The floor for the wealth tax is steadily lowered in order to make up for declining revenue. It starts to hit average retirees, creating a major crisis.

Meanwhile, the "infrastructure" projects fail miserably because they were not well planned. Power blackouts like the ones in California become more common as solar/wind capacity fails to keep up with restrictions on natural gas, oil and coal power. This is further exacerbated by laws promoting electric vehicles.

Sounds awful doesn't it? And yet these are only the items that are already starting to happen, or for which concrete plans already exist. So this is not all that unrealistic of a doomsday scenario.

There might be a few positives though:

Medicare for all - if done right this could rescue the unsustainable health care system. Of course it won't be and things will get even worse, but oh well.

Investments in national infrastructure like roads & bridges. We can only hope, but that is one of the very few things Biden is promising that might garner widespread support.

Anyway, if Biden is elected I would say that the next thread should be about how to protect ourselves.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by doodle » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:20 am

I think that no matter who wins the overall economic trends we have seen in the United States will continue...I think tomfoolery’s fears about the left coming after people making a paltry 200k are exagerrated. I do think there are bigger equity issue trends though that we are going to have to come to terms with...the ceo compensation packages, golden parachutes, lack of corporate accountability, bailouts, decline of labor organization need to be addressed.
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Both Trump and Biden sometimes say insane radical things to cater to the loonies in their base....I think Trumps personal qualities make him unfit as a political leader. The negative statements of dozens of respectable people who have worked for him I think support this. I think this drain the swamp thing is a ruse...considering how many positions he has filled with family members and friends and fired anyone who has opposing viewpoints. That worries me, I think it is good to have dissenting voices within a group.

Trump is a divisive person and I’m afraid he will continue to drive a wedge through the middle of this country...that isn’t good for anyone.

As far as policy goes relative to immigration, military excursions, and manufacturing, I side with Trump. As far as the environment, health care I side with the left.

To me the right has overemphasized the individual over collective society...they share a symbiotic relationship and support one another. The left has demphasized personal responsibility which endangers liberties and freedoms.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by doodle » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:26 am

Id also add that politicians are more like riverboat captains than sailors on the open sea. Their course and direction are constrained and largely directed by forces beyond their control. If a third wave of corona virus emerges this winter that strains hospital capacity and starts killing many thousands of Americans a day it’s going to be bad for the economy no matter who is in power.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by doodle » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:32 am

As far as tax policy goes, I think it’s a poor way to deal with growing wealth gaps. In previous threads I talked about getting labor to organize and negotiate for better pay. This would solve this issue without government involvement. Why people have an issue with labor organizing for better pay and don’t have an issue with incestual nepotistic corporate boards coming up with better and better compensation packages for management is confusing to me.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by tomfoolery » Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:58 am

So far, all of the shared fears can be categorized as:

a) things republicans and libertarians fear Biden will do to the country in the form of new laww/regulations

Or

b) things leftists radicals will do to the country in reponse to Trump winning

I haven’t heard the left describe how trump winning will ruin the country, but I have heard the right and center deceive how Biden may ruin the country.

So what is it the left fears? Trump will make a national ban against transgender bathrooms? Trump will ban Muslims from entering the country? Trump will fail to shutdown the country at a federal level and fail to enact a mask mandate at a federal level and leave it up to cities and states as has been the case so far? Trump will continue to allow the NRA to dominate our gun control and the devastating effects of the unchecked 2nd amendment continue to cause our streets to pour blood?
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by doodle » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:10 am

tomfoolery wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:58 am
So far, all of the shared fears can be categorized as:

a) things republicans and libertarians fear Biden will do to the country in the form of new laww/regulations

Or

b) things leftists radicals will do to the country in reponse to Trump winning

I haven’t heard the left describe how trump winning will ruin the country, but I have heard the right and center deceive how Biden may ruin the country.

So what is it the left fears? Trump will make a national ban against transgender bathrooms? Trump will ban Muslims from entering the country? Trump will fail to shutdown the country at a federal level and fail to enact a mask mandate at a federal level and leave it up to cities and states as has been the case so far? Trump will continue to allow the NRA to dominate our gun control and the devastating effects of the unchecked 2nd amendment continue to cause our streets to pour blood?
I’m not happy with trumps environmental policies. I want a national healthcare option like every other western industrialized nation. I think his miracle economy is based on shaky ground...huge deficit fueled economic growth unsustainable long term. I don’t trust him at all....I don’t trust narcissistic megalomaniacs in general. I don’t think his vitriolic personality is good for our nation. That being said, I’m not thrilled with democratic leadership either.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by sophie » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:11 am

Doodle, since your graph clearly shows a steady upward trend far predating 2016, with no increase in the slope after that date, how exactly do you figure this to be due to Trump's "divisiveness"?

We have one element that other countries represented on that graph do not: massive illegal/unskilled immigration and an immigration policy based on the worst kind of nonsense. That will depress wages like nothing else. The purpose of the H1b program, for example, is to hire relatively cheap workers from places like India instead of Americans with equal skills but who would command a higher salary.

Isn't that precisely what Trump has been trying to combat?
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by jalanlong » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:56 am

My biggest fear with a Biden/Harris victory is an escalation of the Covid restrictions. Biden already has a team in place that has been working on a Covid plan to go into effect immediately after he is elected. And a big part of that plan is "One Voice" meaning local regulations will go out the window and we will be in for national mask mandates (even if you live in a town with sparse populations and 0 Covid cases) and constant lockdowns with no articulated end or goal other than to "save lives" and "protect Americans."

I know a lot of people expect the virus to suddenly disappear after Biden wins but I am not that optimistic at all. Given that Covid is the #1 issue among voting Democrats according to polling, I doubt Biden is just going to ignore that once he gets in. And if Fauci becomes a big player in the White House again you can be assured more restrictions are coming.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by pugchief » Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:59 am

doodle wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:20 am

As far as policy goes relative to immigration, military excursions, and manufacturing, I side with Trump. As far as the environment, health care I side with the left.

To me the right has overemphasized the individual over collective society...they share a symbiotic relationship and support one another. The left has demphasized personal responsibility which endangers liberties and freedoms.
I agree with this (except while single payer healthcare might be a good idea, I don't believe the government is capable of running it properly).
doodle wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:32 am
As far as tax policy goes, I think it’s a poor way to deal with growing wealth gaps. In previous threads I talked about getting labor to organize and negotiate for better pay. This would solve this issue without government involvement. Why people have an issue with labor organizing for better pay and don’t have an issue with incestual nepotistic corporate boards coming up with better and better compensation packages for management is confusing to me.
Because organized labor is not market based and they have also proven time and again that getting rid of non-performing members is next to impossible. I do agree that CEOs are overpaid (as are athletes, movie stars, rock stars, etc), but capitalism pays what the market will bear.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Tortoise » Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:53 pm

One danger I haven't seen anyone on this thread (or the presidential candidates, for that matter) mention yet is the issue of federal bailouts of various state governments as a result of their destructive Covid-1984 restrictions. We all know that's coming soon.

I suspect both candidates are willing to bail out some states to some extent, but Trump would almost certainly withhold some bailout funds from the blue states with the most oppressive Covid-1984 restrictions and would also attach strings to the funds as a way of incentivizing those states to lift their restrictions sooner. I don't know that for sure, but it seems like something Trump might do.

Biden, by contrast, would be more likely to fully bail out every state, which would effectively be a transfer of wealth to blue states that did the most damage to their economies through Covid-1984 restrictions. That would be unfair to the other states and would introduce moral hazard.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by vnatale » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:05 pm

We'd be going through another four years of the same someone with no qualifications, character, skills for being president.

We well MAY be the greatest country in the world. But the rest of the world cannot believe that a company so great is reduced to putting such a person as president.

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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by glennds » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:08 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:24 am
I’m with Winston Churchill on this one. 8)
You have nothing to give but blood, sweat, toil and tears?
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:13 pm

glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:08 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:24 am
I’m with Winston Churchill on this one. 8)
You have nothing to give but blood, sweat, toil and tears?
Not bad, not bad at all! 8) I am now thinking too of FDR, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself".
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by vnatale » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:22 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:13 pm
glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:08 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:24 am
I’m with Winston Churchill on this one. 8)
You have nothing to give but blood, sweat, toil and tears?
Not bad, not bad at all! 8) I am now thinking too of FDR, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself".
And, all this time I thought that THIS was the Churchill quote you had in mind!

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Vinny
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by glennds » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:47 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:22 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:13 pm
glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:08 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:24 am
I’m with Winston Churchill on this one. 8)
You have nothing to give but blood, sweat, toil and tears?
Not bad, not bad at all! 8) I am now thinking too of FDR, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself".
And, all this time I thought that THIS was the Churchill quote you had in mind!

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried."

Vinny
Then there's also "Americans can always be trusted to do the right thing, after all other possibilities have been exhausted"

I always liked - "The best argument against Democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter"
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by glennds » Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:51 pm

sophie wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:11 am

PP4ME I hope you're right. Here's what I would fear the most...it's a long list.

Permanent national lockdown and mask mandate i.e. with no clearly articulated endpoint. Economy goes into the crapper as a result and we end up with a deep, long, nasty depression, sky high unemployment, and evisceration of small businesses and the restaurant/entertainment industry.

Assuming we agree that all politicians and political parties are self interested, then what is the incentive for Biden or the Democrats to effect a permanent national lockdown? What do they gain from it?

For clarification, I'm not necessarily disputing that a permanent national lockdown is their objective, I'm trying to properly understand WHY it would be their objective.
Last edited by glennds on Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why are you afraid of if the “other” party wins?

Post by tomfoolery » Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:00 pm

glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:51 pm
sophie wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:11 am

PP4ME I hope you're right. Here's what I would fear the most...it's a long list.

Permanent national lockdown and mask mandate i.e. with no clearly articulated endpoint. Economy goes into the crapper as a result and we end up with a deep, long, nasty depression, sky high unemployment, and evisceration of small businesses and the restaurant/entertainment industry.

Assuming we agree that all politicians and political parties are self interested, then what is the incentive for Biden or the Democrats to effect a permanent national lockdown? What do they gain from it?

For clarification, I'm not arguing that a permanent national lockdown is their objective, I'm trying to understand WHY it would be their objective.
Several benefits to the democrats:

1- the dems are the party of the nanny state, and the more you are dependent on them, the more they can control you. Imagine a 25 year old living at home, with no job, for free and has an allowance from his parents. This young adult has a lot less freedom than a 25 year old living on his own. The dems are the party of welfare and free shit. The more fee shit you get, the more you’re dependant on them, the less you can fight back.

If you’re living at home for free, you better not talk back to your dad or he won’t give you your allowance this week, he might even disable the home router so you can’t play call of duty. Even if your dad is a dick, you better smile and be polite.

If the dems close down the country, more people will be out of work and more dependent on government handouts like UI and food stamps. It increases their power.

2- if the dems don’t shut down the country, then they appear to be at fault for any deaths that occur. Much like the republicans are taking flak for. So there’s a strong incentive on both sides to shut down, to avoid perceived death tolls on their hands, but since republicans and libertarians don’t want to increase government handouts, the balance tips in favor of deaths.


It’s all about control. The dems would love nothing more than to mandate contact tracing apps on your phone and if you associate with divise people, like ones who support the second amendment or ones who want the shutdown to end, then they’ll know and can punish you accordingly.
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