An example of Libertarian principles?

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vnatale
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An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by vnatale » Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:57 pm

An example of Libertarian principles?

Vinny

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Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by Hal » Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:50 pm

Aussie GoldSmithPP - 25% PMGOLD, 75% VDCO
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:20 am

Hal wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:50 pm
I prefer the Golden Rule ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
Me too. But I must ask, which version is it you prefer? ;)

Version 1. Do unto others as you would have them do to you, or

Version 2. He who holds the gold makes the rules.

I think I know the answer for most politicians. >:D
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by Hal » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:18 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:20 am
Hal wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:50 pm
I prefer the Golden Rule ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
Me too. But I must ask, which version is it you prefer? ;)

Version 1. Do unto others as you would have them do to you, or

Version 2. He who holds the gold makes the rules.

I think I know the answer for most politicians. >:D
Version 1. But that concept is becoming obsolete,
which leads to one of my favourite Twilight Zone episodes 8)
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6ywhne
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by Maddy » Mon Oct 19, 2020 7:47 am

Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, and AOC walk into a bar. Noting that the homeless person standing in the doorway isn't drinking, they draw a gun on the bartender, order him to shake down all of the customers for their cash and valuables, and to send the homeless person away with a whole cart full of cheap wine. The homeless person, still having no prospect of a job, a life, or a real future, drinks himself into oblivion and is found dead of alcohol poisoning the next morning. An example of Democrat principles?
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:08 am

vnatale wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:57 pm
An example of Libertarian principles?

Vinny

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Vendors don't generally kill off their customers, as that's bad for business.

So the most likely reason for such an event would be something like the 18th Amendment. That's because vendors who operate outside the law are by definition criminals, and criminals are generally not prone to future orientation because they can't have any reasonable expectation of getting their investment back over a long period of time.

In other words, government prohibition of a substance makes it much more dangerous both to buy and sell that substance.

Hope that helps.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:12 am

Hal wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 11:50 pm
I prefer the Golden Rule ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule
The only problem with the Golden Rule is that people are often too shortsighted to realize that it is in their interest to follow it.
And of course there is the issue of others taking advantage of those who do.
But there actually is a solution to this if enough people would agree to it: the General Submission to Arbitration. See my separate thread on this.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by glennds » Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:56 am

I'm pretty sure the 14 asshats that were plotting to kidnap the Governor of Michigan are purist Libertarians.

If you read down their list of principles, it lines up pretty much exactly. Ranging from the Left/Communism, Government/Tyranny, the Constitution/ (insert pretty much anything), the deep state, Bill Gates, OrangeMan me likey, on and on.

What's with the beards?
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by jalanlong » Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:13 pm

glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:56 am
I'm pretty sure the 14 asshats that were plotting to kidnap the Governor of Michigan are purist Libertarians.

If you read down their list of principles, it lines up pretty much exactly. Ranging from the Left/Communism, Government/Tyranny, the Constitution/ (insert pretty much anything), the deep state, Bill Gates, OrangeMan me likey, on and on.

What's with the beards?
I wasn't aware that Libertarians as a whole are that in love with Trump. Other than his penchant for giving the middle finger to the establishment and making liberals and Hollywood get their panties in a bunch for 4 years I don't think most real Libertarians would consider Trump likeminded on most issues.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by jalanlong » Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:06 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:07 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:13 pm
glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:56 am
I'm pretty sure the 14 asshats that were plotting to kidnap the Governor of Michigan are purist Libertarians.

If you read down their list of principles, it lines up pretty much exactly. Ranging from the Left/Communism, Government/Tyranny, the Constitution/ (insert pretty much anything), the deep state, Bill Gates, OrangeMan me likey, on and on.

What's with the beards?
I wasn't aware that Libertarians as a whole are that in love with Trump. Other than his penchant for giving the middle finger to the establishment and making liberals and Hollywood get their panties in a bunch for 4 years I don't think most real Libertarians would consider Trump likeminded on most issues.
Of course Trump isn't a libertarian. No one claimed he was.
Well I think glennds comment above tried to put Trump and his supporters into the libertarian/militia camp. And the MSM does that a lot. Anyone who is opposed to central planning by the political class is automatically suspected of making pipe bombs in their garage and is somehow now an avid Trump supporter.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by glennds » Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:25 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:06 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:07 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:13 pm
glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:56 am
I'm pretty sure the 14 asshats that were plotting to kidnap the Governor of Michigan are purist Libertarians.

If you read down their list of principles, it lines up pretty much exactly. Ranging from the Left/Communism, Government/Tyranny, the Constitution/ (insert pretty much anything), the deep state, Bill Gates, OrangeMan me likey, on and on.

What's with the beards?
I wasn't aware that Libertarians as a whole are that in love with Trump. Other than his penchant for giving the middle finger to the establishment and making liberals and Hollywood get their panties in a bunch for 4 years I don't think most real Libertarians would consider Trump likeminded on most issues.
Of course Trump isn't a libertarian. No one claimed he was.
Well I think glennds comment above tried to put Trump and his supporters into the libertarian/militia camp. And the MSM does that a lot. Anyone who is opposed to central planning by the political class is automatically suspected of making pipe bombs in their garage and is somehow now an avid Trump supporter.
Well that's not what I was intending to say. In reading down the list of principles of the 14 perpetrators of the Whitmer kidnapping plot, the list looks strikingly similar to the list as I know it of Libertarian principles.
Does this mean all Libertarians are militia members? No. Does this mean Trump or his supporters are Libertarians? No, not necessarily.

Could it be possible that there are some Libertarians who choose to support Trump because some of his views align with their own? Yes, I would say so.

But I don't believe it is reasonable to throw blanket descriptive labels over the entire group of Trump supporters because they are diverse, and different supporters are attracted to him for different reasons and may be very different from each other in belief systems.

If I have a point, it may be that most all of the political ideologies have some merit to them, until of course they are taken to the extreme at which point they become absurd.
The idiots who plotted to kidnap the Governor are an example of taking Libertarian or Libertarian-like principles to the absurd. They convinced (deluded?) themselves that they were fighting tyranny in the defense of liberty. In reality they were nutjobs that became domestic terrorists, even if they didn't start out that way.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by glennds » Mon Oct 19, 2020 10:47 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 8:12 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:06 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:07 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:13 pm
glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:56 am
I'm pretty sure the 14 asshats that were plotting to kidnap the Governor of Michigan are purist Libertarians.

If you read down their list of principles, it lines up pretty much exactly. Ranging from the Left/Communism, Government/Tyranny, the Constitution/ (insert pretty much anything), the deep state, Bill Gates, OrangeMan me likey, on and on.

What's with the beards?
I wasn't aware that Libertarians as a whole are that in love with Trump. Other than his penchant for giving the middle finger to the establishment and making liberals and Hollywood get their panties in a bunch for 4 years I don't think most real Libertarians would consider Trump likeminded on most issues.
Of course Trump isn't a libertarian. No one claimed he was.
Well I think glennds comment above tried to put Trump and his supporters into the libertarian/militia camp. And the MSM does that a lot. Anyone who is opposed to central planning by the political class is automatically suspected of making pipe bombs in their garage and is somehow now an avid Trump supporter.
Yes, obviously. And probably collects Nazi regalia!
Obviously
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by jalanlong » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:42 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:07 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:13 pm
glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:56 am
I'm pretty sure the 14 asshats that were plotting to kidnap the Governor of Michigan are purist Libertarians.

If you read down their list of principles, it lines up pretty much exactly. Ranging from the Left/Communism, Government/Tyranny, the Constitution/ (insert pretty much anything), the deep state, Bill Gates, OrangeMan me likey, on and on.

What's with the beards?
I wasn't aware that Libertarians as a whole are that in love with Trump. Other than his penchant for giving the middle finger to the establishment and making liberals and Hollywood get their panties in a bunch for 4 years I don't think most real Libertarians would consider Trump likeminded on most issues.
Of course Trump isn't a libertarian. No one claimed he was.

But he is the least non-libertarian President of my lifetime: no new wars, tax cuts, regulation cuts, the Right to Try Act, among other things libertarians support.

Whereas Biden is the most corrupt candidate of my lifetime, maybe not even excluding Hillary, although that's a close one.

That makes it pretty easy for me to make up my mind.
Just curious, why do you not subscribe to the theory that having Trump (or any Republican) in the White House when the debt spirals out of control and the economy craters will get Capitalism and "big business" blamed and end up with much more damaging socialism than you would have if Biden/Harris were in office?
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by pp4me » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:46 am

I don't get how Paul Ryan belongs in that picture. Never thought of him as a libertarian. Was someone thinking of Ron Paul, Rand's father?

Also, the government actually did intentionally poison people with tainted alcohol during prohibition. That's not a conspiracy theory but a well documented fact.
Last edited by pp4me on Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by jalanlong » Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:46 am

glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:25 pm

If I have a point, it may be that most all of the political ideologies have some merit to them, until of course they are taken to the extreme at which point they become absurd.
The idiots who plotted to kidnap the Governor are an example of taking Libertarian or Libertarian-like principles to the absurd. They convinced (deluded?) themselves that they were fighting tyranny in the defense of liberty. In reality they were nutjobs that became domestic terrorists, even if they didn't start out that way.
Of course. Unfortunately as a Libertarian my concern is that most average citizens have very little exposure to the philosophy and really only hear the term anti-government when it is tied together with people planning violent acts.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:55 am

pp4me wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:46 am
I don't get how Paul Ryan belongs in that picture. Never thought of him as a libertarian. Was someone thinking of Ron Paul, Rand's father?

Also, the government actually did intentionally poison people with tainted alcohol during prohibition. That's not a conspiracy theory but a well documented fact.
That's about par for the course with leftists. They can't even meme.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by doodle » Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:40 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:54 am
jalanlong wrote:
Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:42 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:07 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:13 pm
glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:56 am
I'm pretty sure the 14 asshats that were plotting to kidnap the Governor of Michigan are purist Libertarians.

If you read down their list of principles, it lines up pretty much exactly. Ranging from the Left/Communism, Government/Tyranny, the Constitution/ (insert pretty much anything), the deep state, Bill Gates, OrangeMan me likey, on and on.

What's with the beards?
I wasn't aware that Libertarians as a whole are that in love with Trump. Other than his penchant for giving the middle finger to the establishment and making liberals and Hollywood get their panties in a bunch for 4 years I don't think most real Libertarians would consider Trump likeminded on most issues.
Of course Trump isn't a libertarian. No one claimed he was.

But he is the least non-libertarian President of my lifetime: no new wars, tax cuts, regulation cuts, the Right to Try Act, among other things libertarians support.

Whereas Biden is the most corrupt candidate of my lifetime, maybe not even excluding Hillary, although that's a close one.

That makes it pretty easy for me to make up my mind.
Just curious, why do you not subscribe to the theory that having Trump (or any Republican) in the White House when the debt spirals out of control and the economy craters will get Capitalism and "big business" blamed and end up with much more damaging socialism than you would have if Biden/Harris were in office?
Of course I'm concerned about the debt spiraling out of control.
But if the radical left gets into power, that will be the least of our worries.
Because they will destroy what's left of the Republic in short order.
They will pack the Court, legalize all the illegals, open the borders, add new states to elect Democrat Senators, and eliminate the electoral college by statute.
Are you counting on the Constitution to stop them? Their captive Supreme Court won't agree.
Techno, your BDS is redlining. You need to chill on the right wing propaganda or your liberal induced hypertension is going to kill you before the election is even over. Maybe go light a few candles in front of your idol of Trump and do some mantra chanting......itsss goinggg to beeee treeemendoussss
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by doodle » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:31 am

Why isn't the free market fixing this?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/nutr ... -BB18af1z
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:48 am

doodle wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:31 am
Why isn't the free market fixing this?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/nutr ... -BB18af1z
That chicken doesn't sound too charming to me either. But I will point out that fresh water fish can have parasites (and is allowed to be sold) and most cattle and pigs "have had" diseases (but yet they are sold). There apparently is a belief that the consumer has some responsibility to prepare food correctly before consuming. And, early in the article there was a phrase "have had", then later it sounded like the chickens "have now" at the slaughter house. Which is it? Is this a fact problem, or a writer problem in describing the facts? I couldn't tell.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by doodle » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:54 am

Either way...what would stop companies from selling diseased product in the absence of inspections?
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by doodle » Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:55 am

Here's another issue...I just come across these as I read news articles all the time. I'm not even looking for this stuff...

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/opinio ... 15fe.html



In 1978 the first Jackson/Teton County Comprehensive Plan recognized the threats of unregulated septic systems and other development to water quality in Jackson Hole. The need to protect ground and surface water was called an “essential component” of the plan. Little was done, and the 1994 plan revisions dropped the clean water section altogether.

Today those threats have increased, and water quality is declining in parts of the valley. The Snake River Aquifer, the pure gravel river that flows beneath the valley, is our “sole source drinking water aquifer” in Environmental Protection Agency parlance. It is being contaminated, primarily by human sewage.


Teton County has 114 private water systems, the most in the state, all with separate boards and little coordination. Only three have source water protection plans, required by the Safe Drinking Water Act and in place in every state except Wyoming.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:23 am

doodle wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:54 am
Either way...what would stop companies from selling diseased product in the absence of inspections?
Their reputation? Bad rep = low profits regardless of whether a law is in place. Pass the soylent green please, with a glass of Domaine de la Romanée-Conti Romanée-Conti Grand Cru, 1984 vintage.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by doodle » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:43 am

Commodity product. Corporate names can be changed anytime.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:46 am

What if government regulations were facilitating companies being bad actors? My example is something near and dear to my heart, protein powder. Independent lab testing (which comports well with libertarian principles, IMO) has shown that many brands of protein powder contain less than half of the protein on the label.

The companies found a loophole in the FDA regulation that lets them substitute cheap amino acids in place of complete protein. So now they're being sued because people are buying protein powder that should contain all the amino acids, not individual amino acids. One company's defense is going to be that they are fully compliant with FDA regulations. My guess is that their lawyers/PR people have figured out that they will probably win the lawsuit, and they'll take less of a reputation hit because most people won't bother to figure out what they were doing, and since they never admitted they did something wrong/misleading, pointing to the fact that they complied with all FDA regulations, they'll come out ok.

One tactic they'll use is one that Tim Pool has made us all aware of, the "lying with facts" one. Where you can say something that's technically true, but you're really lying in the human-interaction sense of the word:
Similarly, a lab test of MusclePharm’s “Arnold Scharzenegger Series Iron Mass” revealed that just 19 of the promised 40 grams of protein were present, according to exhibits in the lawsuit. Prior to the lab test results, MusclePharm denied over Twitter that it spiked its products.

@JakeHenderson39 Those are fake then. We don't do anything like that. All products legit and scientifically backed — MusclePharm® (@MusclePharm) June 13, 2014
IE, they are legit (according to the FDA regulations that don't jive with meathead expectations), and scientifically backed (meaningless phrase, in this context).

Link.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by doodle » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:13 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:46 am
What if government regulations were facilitating companies being bad actors? My example is something near and dear to my heart, protein powder. Independent lab testing (which comports well with libertarian principles, IMO) has shown that many brands of protein powder contain less than half of the protein on the label.

The companies found a loophole in the FDA regulation that lets them substitute cheap amino acids in place of complete protein. So now they're being sued because people are buying protein powder that should contain all the amino acids, not individual amino acids. One company's defense is going to be that they are fully compliant with FDA regulations. My guess is that their lawyers/PR people have figured out that they will probably win the lawsuit, and they'll take less of a reputation hit because most people won't bother to figure out what they were doing, and since they never admitted they did something wrong/misleading, pointing to the fact that they complied with all FDA regulations, they'll come out ok.

One tactic they'll use is one that Tim Pool has made us all aware of, the "lying with facts" one. Where you can say something that's technically true, but you're really lying in the human-interaction sense of the word:
Similarly, a lab test of MusclePharm’s “Arnold Scharzenegger Series Iron Mass” revealed that just 19 of the promised 40 grams of protein were present, according to exhibits in the lawsuit. Prior to the lab test results, MusclePharm denied over Twitter that it spiked its products.

@JakeHenderson39 Those are fake then. We don't do anything like that. All products legit and scientifically backed — MusclePharm® (@MusclePharm) June 13, 2014
IE, they are legit (according to the FDA regulations that don't jive with meathead expectations), and scientifically backed (meaningless phrase, in this context).

Link.
The supplement industry is terrifying. The complete lack of regulation/oversight has to make anyone wonder what exactly they are consuming in these products. It's very complicated. How do we trust the independent testers as opposed to FDA? Maybe they are paid off as well with corporate money. It's come to light that most Amazon reviews now are fake. How does one trust anything?
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