An example of Libertarian principles?

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Mountaineer
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:49 am

doodle wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:13 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:46 am
What if government regulations were facilitating companies being bad actors? My example is something near and dear to my heart, protein powder. Independent lab testing (which comports well with libertarian principles, IMO) has shown that many brands of protein powder contain less than half of the protein on the label.

The companies found a loophole in the FDA regulation that lets them substitute cheap amino acids in place of complete protein. So now they're being sued because people are buying protein powder that should contain all the amino acids, not individual amino acids. One company's defense is going to be that they are fully compliant with FDA regulations. My guess is that their lawyers/PR people have figured out that they will probably win the lawsuit, and they'll take less of a reputation hit because most people won't bother to figure out what they were doing, and since they never admitted they did something wrong/misleading, pointing to the fact that they complied with all FDA regulations, they'll come out ok.

One tactic they'll use is one that Tim Pool has made us all aware of, the "lying with facts" one. Where you can say something that's technically true, but you're really lying in the human-interaction sense of the word:
Similarly, a lab test of MusclePharm’s “Arnold Scharzenegger Series Iron Mass” revealed that just 19 of the promised 40 grams of protein were present, according to exhibits in the lawsuit. Prior to the lab test results, MusclePharm denied over Twitter that it spiked its products.

@JakeHenderson39 Those are fake then. We don't do anything like that. All products legit and scientifically backed — MusclePharm® (@MusclePharm) June 13, 2014
IE, they are legit (according to the FDA regulations that don't jive with meathead expectations), and scientifically backed (meaningless phrase, in this context).

Link.
The supplement industry is terrifying. The complete lack of regulation/oversight has to make anyone wonder what exactly they are consuming in these products. It's very complicated. How do we trust the independent testers as opposed to FDA? Maybe they are paid off as well with corporate money. It's come to light that most Amazon reviews now are fake. How does one trust anything?
That sounds like you do believe reputation is important. ;)
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:15 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:46 am
What if government regulations were facilitating companies being bad actors? My example is something near and dear to my heart, protein powder. Independent lab testing (which comports well with libertarian principles, IMO) has shown that many brands of protein powder contain less than half of the protein on the label.

The companies found a loophole in the FDA regulation that lets them substitute cheap amino acids in place of complete protein. So now they're being sued because people are buying protein powder that should contain all the amino acids, not individual amino acids. One company's defense is going to be that they are fully compliant with FDA regulations. My guess is that their lawyers/PR people have figured out that they will probably win the lawsuit, and they'll take less of a reputation hit because most people won't bother to figure out what they were doing, and since they never admitted they did something wrong/misleading, pointing to the fact that they complied with all FDA regulations, they'll come out ok.

One tactic they'll use is one that Tim Pool has made us all aware of, the "lying with facts" one. Where you can say something that's technically true, but you're really lying in the human-interaction sense of the word:
Similarly, a lab test of MusclePharm’s “Arnold Scharzenegger Series Iron Mass” revealed that just 19 of the promised 40 grams of protein were present, according to exhibits in the lawsuit. Prior to the lab test results, MusclePharm denied over Twitter that it spiked its products.

@JakeHenderson39 Those are fake then. We don't do anything like that. All products legit and scientifically backed — MusclePharm® (@MusclePharm) June 13, 2014
IE, they are legit (according to the FDA regulations that don't jive with meathead expectations), and scientifically backed (meaningless phrase, in this context).

Link.
This is a specific case of a more general issue: Minimum government standards often become maxima as well, because people assume that if it's "government approved" it must be good.

Here's an example of a private solution to the question of standards.

If I'm going to buy a product with certain characteristics and Costco carries one that matches my requirements, I'll buy it from them. Why? Because I can return it if I'm dissatisfied.

I've done this with products that are over 10 years old, for which I no longer have the receipt, and which they no longer carry.

I'm thinking about a carry-on suitcase whose frame broke after such a timeframe. We tried to get it fixed at a luggage repair shop and they said it wasn't fixable.

We hadn't abused it, using it exclusively as carry-on, so we know the luggage handlers hadn't been slinging it around. We didn't think that was an acceptable level of durability.

So we took it back to the store. It took them a fair amount of time to figure out what to do because the purchase was so old that it was no longer in their system.

However, they could tell that we had bought it from them because it was their store brand, Kirkland.

What they eventually did was look up the last price they had sold it for, and gave us a store credit in that amount, $99 if I recall correctly.

Is there any conceivable government regulation that would mandate that? I can't imagine one that wouldn't totally destroy the economy.

So why do they do it? Because their customers will buy from them if they carry what the customers need. I don't even have to think about it.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by vnatale » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:56 am

doodle wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:13 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:46 am
What if government regulations were facilitating companies being bad actors? My example is something near and dear to my heart, protein powder. Independent lab testing (which comports well with libertarian principles, IMO) has shown that many brands of protein powder contain less than half of the protein on the label.

The companies found a loophole in the FDA regulation that lets them substitute cheap amino acids in place of complete protein. So now they're being sued because people are buying protein powder that should contain all the amino acids, not individual amino acids. One company's defense is going to be that they are fully compliant with FDA regulations. My guess is that their lawyers/PR people have figured out that they will probably win the lawsuit, and they'll take less of a reputation hit because most people won't bother to figure out what they were doing, and since they never admitted they did something wrong/misleading, pointing to the fact that they complied with all FDA regulations, they'll come out ok.

One tactic they'll use is one that Tim Pool has made us all aware of, the "lying with facts" one. Where you can say something that's technically true, but you're really lying in the human-interaction sense of the word:
Similarly, a lab test of MusclePharm’s “Arnold Scharzenegger Series Iron Mass” revealed that just 19 of the promised 40 grams of protein were present, according to exhibits in the lawsuit. Prior to the lab test results, MusclePharm denied over Twitter that it spiked its products.

@JakeHenderson39 Those are fake then. We don't do anything like that. All products legit and scientifically backed — MusclePharm® (@MusclePharm) June 13, 2014
IE, they are legit (according to the FDA regulations that don't jive with meathead expectations), and scientifically backed (meaningless phrase, in this context).

Link.
The supplement industry is terrifying. The complete lack of regulation/oversight has to make anyone wonder what exactly they are consuming in these products. It's very complicated. How do we trust the independent testers as opposed to FDA? Maybe they are paid off as well with corporate money. It's come to light that most Amazon reviews now are fake. How does one trust anything?
What is your source for this? I find that I can quite easily tell which ones are not fake. The ones that are clear that it's worth no one's time to spend so much time creating such a lengthy, detailed review for just one product. And, why do certain products get tons and tons of reviews? All mostly fake? Short, short reviews are of no value to me whether they are fake or now and I generally disregard them.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by vnatale » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:07 am

Right now on C-Span is a debate for a New York state House Representative position. One of the participants is a Libertarian candidate.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by vnatale » Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:12 am

Jo Jorgensen, Libertarian presidential candidate, on C-Span NOW!!! For about 45 minutes. Unfiltered and no commercials! Call and talk to her and ask her a question!

VInny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by Libertarian666 » Sat Oct 24, 2020 9:57 am

vnatale wrote:
Sat Oct 24, 2020 8:12 am
Jo Jorgensen, Libertarian presidential candidate, on C-Span NOW!!! For about 45 minutes. Unfiltered and no commercials! Call and talk to her and ask her a question!

VInny
She's a communist sympathizer, so I'm not interested.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by vnatale » Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:45 am

Right now on C-Span is a repeat of this morning with her.

Of, you can go here anytime: https://www.c-span.org/video/?477166-4/ ... -president


Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Jul 21, 2021 9:48 pm

glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:25 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 6:06 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 5:07 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:13 pm
glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:56 am
I'm pretty sure the 14 asshats that were plotting to kidnap the Governor of Michigan are purist Libertarians.

If you read down their list of principles, it lines up pretty much exactly. Ranging from the Left/Communism, Government/Tyranny, the Constitution/ (insert pretty much anything), the deep state, Bill Gates, OrangeMan me likey, on and on.

What's with the beards?
I wasn't aware that Libertarians as a whole are that in love with Trump. Other than his penchant for giving the middle finger to the establishment and making liberals and Hollywood get their panties in a bunch for 4 years I don't think most real Libertarians would consider Trump likeminded on most issues.
Of course Trump isn't a libertarian. No one claimed he was.
Well I think glennds comment above tried to put Trump and his supporters into the libertarian/militia camp. And the MSM does that a lot. Anyone who is opposed to central planning by the political class is automatically suspected of making pipe bombs in their garage and is somehow now an avid Trump supporter.
Well that's not what I was intending to say. In reading down the list of principles of the 14 perpetrators of the Whitmer kidnapping plot, the list looks strikingly similar to the list as I know it of Libertarian principles.
Does this mean all Libertarians are militia members? No. Does this mean Trump or his supporters are Libertarians? No, not necessarily.

Could it be possible that there are some Libertarians who choose to support Trump because some of his views align with their own? Yes, I would say so.

But I don't believe it is reasonable to throw blanket descriptive labels over the entire group of Trump supporters because they are diverse, and different supporters are attracted to him for different reasons and may be very different from each other in belief systems.

If I have a point, it may be that most all of the political ideologies have some merit to them, until of course they are taken to the extreme at which point they become absurd.
The idiots who plotted to kidnap the Governor are an example of taking Libertarian or Libertarian-like principles to the absurd. They convinced (deluded?) themselves that they were fighting tyranny in the defense of liberty. In reality they were nutjobs that became domestic terrorists, even if they didn't start out that way.
I just read that 12 of them were FBI informants. link
An examination of the case by BuzzFeed News also reveals that some of those informants, acting under the direction of the FBI, played a far larger role than has previously been reported. Working in secret, they did more than just passively observe and report on the actions of the suspects. Instead, they had a hand in nearly every aspect of the alleged plot, starting with its inception. The extent of their involvement raises questions as to whether there would have even been a conspiracy without them.

A longtime government informant from Wisconsin, for example, helped organize a series of meetings around the country where many of the alleged plotters first met one another and the earliest notions of a plan took root, some of those people say. The Wisconsin informant even paid for some hotel rooms and food as an incentive to get people to come. link
lol

Buzzfeed is completely off the reservation.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by jalanlong » Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:50 pm

glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:56 am
I'm pretty sure the 14 asshats that were plotting to kidnap the Governor of Michigan are purist Libertarians.

If you read down their list of principles, it lines up pretty much exactly. Ranging from the Left/Communism, Government/Tyranny, the Constitution/ (insert pretty much anything), the deep state, Bill Gates, OrangeMan me likey, on and on.

What's with the beards?
Seems they were helped along by the government!

https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/ar ... red-by-fbi
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by SomeDude » Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:03 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:50 pm
glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:56 am
I'm pretty sure the 14 asshats that were plotting to kidnap the Governor of Michigan are purist Libertarians.

If you read down their list of principles, it lines up pretty much exactly. Ranging from the Left/Communism, Government/Tyranny, the Constitution/ (insert pretty much anything), the deep state, Bill Gates, OrangeMan me likey, on and on.

What's with the beards?
Seems they were helped along by the government!

https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/ar ... red-by-fbi
Seems like all these plots against the government are organized by the government. Of course 50% of the population always seems to fall for it.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by pp4me » Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:12 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:03 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:50 pm
glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:56 am
I'm pretty sure the 14 asshats that were plotting to kidnap the Governor of Michigan are purist Libertarians.

If you read down their list of principles, it lines up pretty much exactly. Ranging from the Left/Communism, Government/Tyranny, the Constitution/ (insert pretty much anything), the deep state, Bill Gates, OrangeMan me likey, on and on.

What's with the beards?
Seems they were helped along by the government!

https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/ar ... red-by-fbi
Seems like all these plots against the government are organized by the government. Of course 50% of the population always seems to fall for it.
I don't know if those guys adhered to libertarian principles or not but I think the bottom line is that if someone tries to convince you to kidnap the governor of your state you should probably say no.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by SomeDude » Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:16 am

pp4me wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:12 pm
SomeDude wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:03 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:50 pm
glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:56 am
I'm pretty sure the 14 asshats that were plotting to kidnap the Governor of Michigan are purist Libertarians.

If you read down their list of principles, it lines up pretty much exactly. Ranging from the Left/Communism, Government/Tyranny, the Constitution/ (insert pretty much anything), the deep state, Bill Gates, OrangeMan me likey, on and on.

What's with the beards?
Seems they were helped along by the government!

https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/ar ... red-by-fbi
Seems like all these plots against the government are organized by the government. Of course 50% of the population always seems to fall for it.
I don't know if those guys adhered to libertarian principles or not but I think the bottom line is that if someone tries to convince you to kidnap the governor of your state you should probably say no.
How do you feel about paying government agents to organize and motivate people to ummm plot to kidnap another government official in order to entrap them? Seems like an easier problem to solve.

It should be illegal for government agents to organize the kidnapping of government officials. Why are they doing this? Answer: it let's them politically persecute their enemies. This plot was hatched to hurt Trump and Republicans, not kidnapp the wicked witch of the North.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by pp4me » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:53 am

SomeDude wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:16 am
pp4me wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:12 pm
SomeDude wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:03 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 1:50 pm
glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:56 am
I'm pretty sure the 14 asshats that were plotting to kidnap the Governor of Michigan are purist Libertarians.

If you read down their list of principles, it lines up pretty much exactly. Ranging from the Left/Communism, Government/Tyranny, the Constitution/ (insert pretty much anything), the deep state, Bill Gates, OrangeMan me likey, on and on.

What's with the beards?
Seems they were helped along by the government!

https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/ar ... red-by-fbi
Seems like all these plots against the government are organized by the government. Of course 50% of the population always seems to fall for it.
I don't know if those guys adhered to libertarian principles or not but I think the bottom line is that if someone tries to convince you to kidnap the governor of your state you should probably say no.
How do you feel about paying government agents to organize and motivate people to ummm plot to kidnap another government official in order to entrap them? Seems like an easier problem to solve.

It should be illegal for government agents to organize the kidnapping of government officials. Why are they doing this? Answer: it let's them politically persecute their enemies. This plot was hatched to hurt Trump and Republicans, not kidnapp the wicked witch of the North.
I don't feel good about it at all. But I still wouldn't recommend signing up to kidnap a governor.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:47 pm

However, numbskulls like this talk all the time, and 99.999% of the time it's just talk. When the police infiltrate and instigate action that wasn't otherwise going to happen, I think that's a real problem.
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by SomeDude » Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:58 pm

The FBI commits so many crimes they should be on their own most wanted list. To bad Trump couldn't disband them and these "agents" go get real jobs instead of these hairbrained political schemes. Notice it's never against the Dems?
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Re: An example of Libertarian principles?

Post by Kbg » Fri Jul 30, 2021 10:14 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Thu Jul 29, 2021 8:58 pm
The FBI commits so many crimes they should be on their own most wanted list. To bad Trump couldn't disband them and these "agents" go get real jobs instead of these hairbrained political schemes. Notice it's never against the Dems?
Do you know any FBI agents personally?

I know several and everyone of them is a law and order conservative as is the organization rank and file generally. People I know in the FBI are pretty patriotic, right up there with the people I know in the military and they serve because they want to do some good in the world. Most the people I know who have literally signed on the dotted line to take a bullet if they need to are that way.

Let me give everyone on the board a very big tip...cops, FBI agents, the military, CBP etc. It's a super bad idea to politicize them regardless of where you sit on the political spectrum. Eventually, it's not going to work out well. You want them all not really giving a crap about what your politics are and to just do their job legally and with oversight by the three branches of government according to their constitutional responsibilities.

I'll bet it has been pretty shocking to the nut jobs who stormed the capitol just how good the above folks are at what they do...they're relentless.

Funny thing about the law and law enforcement, you break the law or you don't. Last time I got a speeding ticket the officer really didn't care I was listening to a podcast and wasn't paying attention as I drove into the outskirts of a small western town. Nor should he have. If there is a undercover informant in a group and the informant is trying to talk them into doing something illegal that DOES NOT relieve the group or any individual in the group of saying, no not going to that. It's illegal.

Remember what our moms used to always tell us? Now Bobby, if Johnny tells you to jump off a cliff are you going to do it? When you were six the correct answer was no, when you are 18-99, the answer is still no.
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