Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

[Kriegsspiel]

A guy on Triggernometry made the observation that people treat the mask mandate in the UK like Iranian (he grew up in Iran) women treat the headscarf mandate. They wear them around their necks until they see the police, then they put them on

[murphy_p_t]

The point made in the opening post is exactly correct. Sadly, it's not only liberals who have prostrated themselves to this cult. Yes, the face diaper is the sign of submission.

For anyone who thinks this is about public health, please provide actual scientific studies documenting the effectiveness of the face diaper. You might start by taking a look at the recent Danish study which was publicized.

[Kbg]

Go mask freedom fighters!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for keeping us all safe from tyranny and oppression. Your courage and inspiration are awe inspiring. May your civil mindedness and concern for others inspire all future American generations.

Truly, we can never repay the debt we owe you. You will be remembered right up there with Revolutionary War, Civil War and the Greatest Generation veterans.

Now get back out there tigers...go pull some masks off people's faces. Your wives and children expect this of you. It's a tough job, but who else can we rely upon?

[murphy_p_t]

And yet, no science to support your satire.

Because it doesn't exist

[dualstow]

Go mask freedom fighters!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you for keeping us all safe from tyranny and oppression. Your courage and inspiration are awe inspiring. May your civil mindedness and concern for others inspire all future American generations.

Truly, we can never repay the debt we owe you. You will be remembered right up there with Revolutionary War, Civil War and the Greatest Generation veterans.

Now get back out there tigers...go pull some masks off people's faces. Your wives an children expect this of you. It's a tough job, but who can else can we rely upon?

[Kbg]

And yet, no science to support your satire.

Because it doesn't exist

How about 46 scientific studies that say elsewise from US sources

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... -cov2.html


Maybe 14 more from European sources

https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/ear ... 01260-2020


Maybe a Hong Kong hospital study

https://www.contagionlive.com/view/hong ... tervention

How about a study that studies mask acceptance in societies and the science backing wearing masks

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7314683/

And yet, way more science backs my satire than your misinformed opinion.

Analytical Methods 101: Source credibility. If your source is some random internet blogger with an agenda vs. known entities whose business and charter is to study these types of things and make public health recommendations and policy...knock yourself out.

The science is crystal clear, let me summarize for you maybe it will help simplify.

- Do masks prevent the spread of airborne disease - no

- Do masks mitigate droplet transmission (and follow me here if you can) and therefore mitigate transmission effectivity - yes

- Does mask quality make a difference in the above - yes

Riddle me this Batman...if masking up does nothing why does every single picture you see of a COVID ward in a hospital have doctors and nurses who are heavily masked up, face shielded up and wearing protective clothing?

Yep, one big conspiracy with no science behind it...ever notice how all the hospital clothing is greenish blue...gnomes I tell you, gnomes. These gnomes are a branch off of the blue gnomes who stole the election.

[Kbg]

So to make my personal opinion also crystal clear.

Mask wearing, it's a no-brainer that is helpful, civic minded and really isn't a big deal to comply with. I just got done wearing one for 5 weeks 16 hours a day in an Asian country except when in my hotel room and eating. Really, you will be fine, it's ok. You can even hike up a mountain every morning with one on.

Degree to which we shut down the economy and other public services to limit the spread of COVID, reasonable people can differ here and IMHO there does need to be a balance. I belive this balance is best decided at the local level, optimally free of politics, yet incorporating economic and medical good advice. Federal direction for shutdowns is not helpful because local conditions vary greatly.

I'm also completely cool with mandatory cell phone tracking that is anonymized except for when a COVID contact cluster occurs at which the involved individuals can be "decloaked" and notified. This is exactly what you are already doing if you happen to have an iOS or Android cell phone only you are giving it to private companies who then use and exploit you for everything they can.

[Xan]

And yet, no science to support your satire.

Because it doesn't exist

How about 46 scientific studies that say elsewise from US sources

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-nc ... -cov2.html


Maybe 14 more from European sources

https://erj.ersjournals.com/content/ear ... 01260-2020


Maybe a Hong Kong hospital study

https://www.contagionlive.com/view/hong ... tervention

How about a study that studies mask acceptance in societies and the science backing wearing masks

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7314683/

And yet, way more science backs my satire than your misinformed opinion.

Analytical Methods 101: Source credibility. If your source is some random internet blogger with an agenda vs. known entities whose business and charter is to study these types of things and make public health recommendations and policy...knock yourself out.

The science is crystal clear, let me summarize for you maybe it will help simplify.

- Do masks prevent the spread of airborne disease - no

- Do masks mitigate droplet transmission (and follow me here if you can) and therefore mitigate transmission effectivity - yes

- Does mask quality make a difference in the above - yes

Riddle me this Batman...if masking up does nothing why does every single picture you see of a COVID ward in a hospital have doctors and nurses who are heavily masked up, face shielded up and wearing protective clothing?

Yep, one big conspiracy with no science behind it...ever notice how all the hospital clothing is greenish blue...gnomes I tell you, gnomes. These gnomes are a branch off of the blue gnomes who stole the election.

Lab studies show that masks work. They may work to help prevent infection in specific environments like ORs. The strange thing is that they don't work to prevent the spread of infectious diseases in the general population, even when there's complete compliance, and we don't really know why.

[Kbg]

I like to go to the source...so here it is, plus professional comments.

https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817

In any event, nice intellectual work. Glom on to a study that supports your predisposition. Dude I can do that all day long just pick the subject.

Analytical Methodology 102: Quality of sources and weight of evidence.

I'll give you a C on quality, at least the source study was actually academic/scientific and controlled. You need to bring a lot credible evidence to the table to overcome weight of evidence. So F there.

Finally, I'm seriously beginning to think most Americans are complete morons when it comes to understanding science. With the exception of physics, and even with physics, we see through a glass darkly at all times.

When I see medical professionals ditch masks, that's when I'll believe the science no longer backs mask wearing. Of course organizations who are accountable for acting responsibly or they will be held accountable in courts are going to go with mainstream consensus to CYA. Let's invert as Charlie Munger encourages as a way to think clearly. Mr. kbg is an enterprising young malpractice lawyer and sees a picture in his local newspaper of medical professionals in a COVID ward or the surgical room with no masks on...is Mr. kbg seeing dollar signs in his head? Yes, drooling as well.

Even better for all my esteemed mask warriors; next time you go in for surgery I demand that you demand everyone in the operating room take off their masks. Better yet, when the anesthesiologist leans over you to apply your anesthesia mask...pull his off his face. Serious bonus points for that move.

I'm sure all of our heroes have that kind personal courage and conviction, no doubt.

[dualstow]

the new normal?
https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... ormal.html

great article!

[WiseOne]

Hmmm....I read the publication of the Danish clinical trial of mask-wearing, along with the preceding article that discussed how the study was designed.

The results match up well with the WHO meta-analysis I posted here, which found a range of zero to 22% beneefit from mask-wearing to prevent spread of influenzea. There was a small benefit for mask wearing of about 14% (2.1% COVID rate in the control group, 1.8% in the mask-wearing group). However, it did not reach statistical significance because the study was only powered to have an 80% chance of detecting a large (50%) reduction in infection due to mask wearing. Statistically, that 14% is indistinguishable from the range -1.2% to 0.4%. (Negative = no benefit.)

Another way to report these numbers that might make more sense to the average person: In order to prevent one COVID case in a setting of a 2% infection rate per month, according to the numbers in this study 300 people would have to consistently wear masks outside the home.

Of course, that's under ideal conditions: participation in a study which means you are getting motivated, compliant participants, a fixed duration of one month as opposed to "forever" that the participants had to adhere to, and weekly phone calls to study participants.

So let me write a more sensible conclusion to this study. It says there is not a large benefit to mask wearing, which means that government orders forcing mask wearing are not well justified (but we knew that already, didn't we?). It also says, like the WHO meta-analysis, that there may be a small benefit for mask wearing - though this study cannot prove that. So, you should make your own decision about mask-wearing depending on COVID rates in your area, your personal risk profile and that of the others in your household.

See wasn't that easy???

[murphy_p_t]

A guy on Triggernometry made the observation that people treat the mask mandate in the UK like Iranian (he grew up in Iran) women treat the headscarf mandate. They wear them around their necks until they see the police, then they put them on

Great find. This has been going on since the Spanish Inquisition. Even in the late 1400s people would just pretend to follow oppressive laws until the men with guns were within sight.

For a new thread....
What are these oppressive laws would you refer to?

I don't live in a country where we had to fight for many centuries to reclaim our territory, so I'm not quick to judge negatively actions authorized by the Spanish crown.

[vnatale]

Suppose mask-wearing does prevent a marginal amount of COVID spreading which prevents a marginal amount of COVID deaths.

From a risk mitigation standpoint, the cost has to be lower than the negative outcome we're avoiding. What are the costs of mask wearing?

It's a hassle that takes time and effort. It's perhaps marginal on the individual level but adds up considerably. 300 Million Americans. Conservatively, 10 seconds to put on or take off a mask 10 times a day. 100 seconds per American per day. That's 0.03 Hours per person. That's about 8 million hours per day spent screwing around with masks.

8 million hours per day. That seems enormous. From a percentage of the total day, it's small, but 8 million hours per day. Jeez!

And I am being conservative on 10 seconds per application and 10 times per day.

Now about the cost of the masks themselves. I won't bother estimating that, I'm still blown away by 8 million hours per day spent on this.

On average people work 8 hours a day. That keeps the math really simple. So 8 million hours is the equivalent of 1 million people not doing productive work each day.

Apple Computer has 150k employees. So rounding down even, that's like 6 Apple companies.

The opportunity cost of mask wearing in the US is the destruction of 6 Apple companies.

Okay cool, there's no way to put a price on life. Well, why don't we all agree to stop driving cars? About 40k Americans die each year from car accidents. If we all stopped driving cars, we'd save the lives of 40k people. And arguably, this would have a bigger impact than mask wearing because the people who die in car accidents are disproportionately young and unlikely to die in any given year. Whereas the deaths from COVID are disproproportionately old and very likely to die from someone else if not from COVID, since the average age of COVID death is older than the average age people die.

But no one is talking about ending cars, because it would hurt our productivity too much.

Mask wearing sucks up the equivalent productivity of 1 million people per day. How's that for productivity losses?

I was equally upset when TSA became a bigger thing after 9/11. Sure, maybe we've prevented some terrorist-related deaths, but at the cost of billions of hours of lost productivity per year, standing in lines at the airport.

This argument can also be supplied to all the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ invested in schools' security both on a one-time basis and on an ongoing basis. The probabilities of any child getting killed by a mass shooter are extremely low yet what are the total $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that have been spent on mitigation?

Do you support the security hardening of all these schools?

Vinny

[vnatale]

The probabilities of any child getting killed by a mass shooter are extremely low yet what are the total $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that have been spent on mitigation?

Do you support the security hardening of all these schools?

Vinny

I support arming teachers and parents. The reason mass shootings happen at schools is because it's a gun free school zone. And there is no resistance. Have you ever heard of a mass shooter at a gun store? Or a mass shooter at a gun show?

Mass shooters tend to exclusively happen in gun-banned zones. Such as military bases. Which, for whatever reason, our soldiers are not allowed to be armed when on a military base in the US. Except a handful of MPs. And mass shootings occur there because of it.

As far as security hardening, I think that can work too, in conjunction with arming good guys. But that should be relatively cheap to install security doors.

Instead, we only allow "highly trained" police officers to carry guns in school, and they are usually 5 to 10 minutes away, at best, or hiding in the bathroom when the shooting is happening.

What are the costs of arming all the teachers and parents, including both the guns and the training? How often will they be trained? Is it true many police only undergo one training a year and are incredibly bad shots? No side effects, i.e., students getting the teachers and parents guns and causing a new set of problems that don't already exist?

Vinny

[vnatale]

What are the costs of arming all the teachers and parents, including both the guns and the training? How often will they be trained? Is it true many police only undergo one training a year and are incredibly bad shots? No side effects, i.e., students getting the teachers and parents guns and causing a new set of problems that don't already exist?

Vinny

I don't know. But seems better than the alternatives.

Is it true many police only undergo one training a year and are incredibly bad shots? No side effects, i.e., students getting the teachers and parents guns and causing a new set of problems that don't already exist?

Police generally only have to "qualify" twice per year, not "train", just do a 50 round or less qual. And the quals are so easy, that some of my police friends do them with their eyes closed. Not kidding. You do have to be a good shooter to do it with your eyes closed, relying on kinesthetic indexing of the firearm, but it points out how easy it is, with your eyes open.

Also, we arm security at banks to protect money that's insured against loss anyway. Why not arm security at schools to protect children?

In my libertarian fantasyland, there wouldn't be public schools, but imagine a private high school. There would be a handful of security guards, which currently exist in all schools now, except they are unarmed.

And I would arm those private security guards that are already at the school.

I would also offer volunteer spots for any teachers interested in firearms to get training and be allowed to carry within the school as well. In my fantasyland world, most adults are competent with firearms anyway so the marginal cost to "train" teachers would be minimal.

I don't think you are staying with what seemed to be your initial principle of shouldn't we be examining the benefit / cost ratio of implementing certain measures.

The benefit we are discussing is the possibilities of saving any child's life from gun violence (which would be defined as [possibility of gun violence happening to a child X the success rate of the measure employed].

The costs are clearly defined (though not quantified).

Using my rarely used intuition it seems that this ratio would be extremely low. I'd therefore think that you'd be an advocate of either in the case of the public schools saving the taxpayer's money by avoiding these costs or having all the private school tuitions be lower.

Vinny

[dualstow]

The opportunity cost of mask wearing in the US is the destruction of 6 Apple companies.

I really don’t buy that, Tom. i spend very little time fiddling with masks.
Wasted an hour on rejected passwords, and that happens every week. Masks, no problem.

... This has been going on since the Spanish Inquisition. Even in the late 1400s people would just pretend to follow oppressive laws until the men with guns were within sight.

For a new thread....
What are these oppressive laws would you refer to?

I don't live in a country where we had to fight for many centuries to reclaim our territory, so I'm not quick to judge negatively actions authorized by the Spanish crown.

Expecting Jews to convert to Catholicism or be killed. That's pretty oppressive in my book. So many outwardly pretended to convert, while still practicing Judaism in secrecy. Kind of like wearing your mask when the mask police are around to see it.

A fascinating topic. There are great books on conversos and fake conversos.

[murphy_p_t]

PugChief-

Oh, you're talking about the rootless people in the Iberian peninsula who collaborated with the Muslim invasion. Their people had demonstrated that They were a direct threat to the Spanish crown. After the reconquista succeeded (after many centuries), the wondering people were given the choice to leave Iberia or enter the Church.

[Mark Leavy]

PugChief-

Oh, you're talking about the rootless people in the Iberian peninsula who collaborated with the Muslim invasion. Their people had demonstrated that They were a direct threat to the Spanish crown. After the reconquista succeeded (after many centuries), the wondering people were given the choice to leave Iberia or enter the Church.

Those Sephardi. You can’t turn your back on them. Basically Arabs. That Torquemada taught them a thing or two.

[dualstow]

It’s always that charge of collaboration with the enemy, stabbing the righteous natives in the back that excuses the pogroms and torture of those rootless people, eh, Murph?

[murphy_p_t]

Is this brief article complete fiction?

http://www.judaism-islam.com/jews-opene ... of-toledo/

In the spring of 711, a Muslim army invaded Iberia led by Tariq ibn Ziyad, serving the Arab governor Musa ibn Nusayr, at Guadalete they swiftly defeated Roderick (Luthariq) the Visigoth King and then marched northward to the Visigoth capital of Toledo. Both Latin and Arabic chroniclers record that the Jews of the city “opened the gates of Toledo” to Tariq, who conquered the city. With more cities to take Tariq left Toledo and entrusted its protection to a garrison of Jewish soldiers, whom had rose up against the Catholic Visigoths and opened the gates.

When Tariq’s master, Musa ibn Nusayr, arrived in Iberia with a large Arab force he seized Seville and like Tariq before him, he entrusted the city to its Jewish inhabitants until his return.

[murphy_p_t]

https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-12-14- ... ssary.html

Asymptomatic spread is pseudoscience. It is (now) perfectly safe to leave your mask at home.

[Kriegsspiel]

Yup, that article references the same study from China (well, it references the Epoch Times referencing it). At any rate, this is how SCIENCE! works. One study has a finding, then subsequent studies are unable to replicate that finding (asymptomatic spread).

[dualstow]

I’m stealthily growing a beard under my mask. Only the wife knows. She hates it. I think the cat likes it.

[Cortopassi]

https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-12-14- ... ssary.html

Asymptomatic spread is pseudoscience. It is (now) perfectly safe to leave your mask at home.

If a writer/news source wants me to take a story seriously, why write crappily like this? I am perfectly willing to believe asymptomatic spread is not a major vector, but when they write shit sarcastically like this and reference the Epoch Times, they are catering to a certain group who already believes what they are writing and are doing nothing to convince others like me.

--Chinese Virus
--300 “cases” (using quotes, implying "not real")
--WuFlu
--absolutely no reason to continue forcing healthy people to block their breathing holes with made-in-China plastic or fabric
--push snake oil woo-woo as the “cure” for the WuWuFlu.

[vnatale]

I’m stealthily growing a beard under my mask. Only the wife knows. She hates it. I think the cat likes it.

Earlier today I got a request from a coworker for me to send her a picture of me for the organization's newsletter.

I sent her one taken of me outdoors, in shorts, taken on November 17, 2020, the last warm day in a series of unseasonably warm days.

Since I've been working at home starting mid-March I've not trimmed any hairs on my body.

She is my youngest co-worker (mid-20s) and this is the response I got from her: "Wow check out your beard! Nice!"

Prior only one other coworker had seen the beard. Definitely by far the longest beard I'd ever had in my life. And, still growing! So long that I just started shampooing it after I shampoo my hair during my daily shower.

Vinny