Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

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vnatale
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

Post by vnatale »

tomfoolery wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:18 pm Suppose mask-wearing does prevent a marginal amount of COVID spreading which prevents a marginal amount of COVID deaths.

From a risk mitigation standpoint, the cost has to be lower than the negative outcome we're avoiding. What are the costs of mask wearing?

It's a hassle that takes time and effort. It's perhaps marginal on the individual level but adds up considerably. 300 Million Americans. Conservatively, 10 seconds to put on or take off a mask 10 times a day. 100 seconds per American per day. That's 0.03 Hours per person. That's about 8 million hours per day spent screwing around with masks.

8 million hours per day. That seems enormous. From a percentage of the total day, it's small, but 8 million hours per day. Jeez!

And I am being conservative on 10 seconds per application and 10 times per day.

Now about the cost of the masks themselves. I won't bother estimating that, I'm still blown away by 8 million hours per day spent on this.

On average people work 8 hours a day. That keeps the math really simple. So 8 million hours is the equivalent of 1 million people not doing productive work each day.

Apple Computer has 150k employees. So rounding down even, that's like 6 Apple companies.

The opportunity cost of mask wearing in the US is the destruction of 6 Apple companies.

Okay cool, there's no way to put a price on life. Well, why don't we all agree to stop driving cars? About 40k Americans die each year from car accidents. If we all stopped driving cars, we'd save the lives of 40k people. And arguably, this would have a bigger impact than mask wearing because the people who die in car accidents are disproportionately young and unlikely to die in any given year. Whereas the deaths from COVID are disproproportionately old and very likely to die from someone else if not from COVID, since the average age of COVID death is older than the average age people die.

But no one is talking about ending cars, because it would hurt our productivity too much.

Mask wearing sucks up the equivalent productivity of 1 million people per day. How's that for productivity losses?

I was equally upset when TSA became a bigger thing after 9/11. Sure, maybe we've prevented some terrorist-related deaths, but at the cost of billions of hours of lost productivity per year, standing in lines at the airport.
This argument can also be supplied to all the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ invested in schools' security both on a one-time basis and on an ongoing basis. The probabilities of any child getting killed by a mass shooter are extremely low yet what are the total $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that have been spent on mitigation?

Do you support the security hardening of all these schools?

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

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tomfoolery wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:29 pm
vnatale wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:26 pm
The probabilities of any child getting killed by a mass shooter are extremely low yet what are the total $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that have been spent on mitigation?

Do you support the security hardening of all these schools?

Vinny
I support arming teachers and parents. The reason mass shootings happen at schools is because it's a gun free school zone. And there is no resistance. Have you ever heard of a mass shooter at a gun store? Or a mass shooter at a gun show?

Mass shooters tend to exclusively happen in gun-banned zones. Such as military bases. Which, for whatever reason, our soldiers are not allowed to be armed when on a military base in the US. Except a handful of MPs. And mass shootings occur there because of it.

As far as security hardening, I think that can work too, in conjunction with arming good guys. But that should be relatively cheap to install security doors.

Instead, we only allow "highly trained" police officers to carry guns in school, and they are usually 5 to 10 minutes away, at best, or hiding in the bathroom when the shooting is happening.
What are the costs of arming all the teachers and parents, including both the guns and the training? How often will they be trained? Is it true many police only undergo one training a year and are incredibly bad shots? No side effects, i.e., students getting the teachers and parents guns and causing a new set of problems that don't already exist?

Vinny
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

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tomfoolery wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:54 pm
vnatale wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:41 pm
What are the costs of arming all the teachers and parents, including both the guns and the training? How often will they be trained? Is it true many police only undergo one training a year and are incredibly bad shots? No side effects, i.e., students getting the teachers and parents guns and causing a new set of problems that don't already exist?

Vinny
I don't know. But seems better than the alternatives.
vnatale wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:41 pm
Is it true many police only undergo one training a year and are incredibly bad shots? No side effects, i.e., students getting the teachers and parents guns and causing a new set of problems that don't already exist?
Police generally only have to "qualify" twice per year, not "train", just do a 50 round or less qual. And the quals are so easy, that some of my police friends do them with their eyes closed. Not kidding. You do have to be a good shooter to do it with your eyes closed, relying on kinesthetic indexing of the firearm, but it points out how easy it is, with your eyes open.

Also, we arm security at banks to protect money that's insured against loss anyway. Why not arm security at schools to protect children?

In my libertarian fantasyland, there wouldn't be public schools, but imagine a private high school. There would be a handful of security guards, which currently exist in all schools now, except they are unarmed.

And I would arm those private security guards that are already at the school.

I would also offer volunteer spots for any teachers interested in firearms to get training and be allowed to carry within the school as well. In my fantasyland world, most adults are competent with firearms anyway so the marginal cost to "train" teachers would be minimal.
I don't think you are staying with what seemed to be your initial principle of shouldn't we be examining the benefit / cost ratio of implementing certain measures.

The benefit we are discussing is the possibilities of saving any child's life from gun violence (which would be defined as [possibility of gun violence happening to a child X the success rate of the measure employed].

The costs are clearly defined (though not quantified).

Using my rarely used intuition it seems that this ratio would be extremely low. I'd therefore think that you'd be an advocate of either in the case of the public schools saving the taxpayer's money by avoiding these costs or having all the private school tuitions be lower.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

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tomfoolery wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 4:18 pm The opportunity cost of mask wearing in the US is the destruction of 6 Apple companies.
I really don’t buy that, Tom. i spend very little time fiddling with masks.
Wasted an hour on rejected passwords, and that happens every week. Masks, no problem.
MangoMan wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 5:03 pm
murphy_p_t wrote: Tue Dec 01, 2020 11:24 am
MangoMan wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:46 am ... This has been going on since the Spanish Inquisition. Even in the late 1400s people would just pretend to follow oppressive laws until the men with guns were within sight.
For a new thread....
What are these oppressive laws would you refer to?

I don't live in a country where we had to fight for many centuries to reclaim our territory, so I'm not quick to judge negatively actions authorized by the Spanish crown.
Expecting Jews to convert to Catholicism or be killed. That's pretty oppressive in my book. So many outwardly pretended to convert, while still practicing Judaism in secrecy. Kind of like wearing your mask when the mask police are around to see it.
A fascinating topic. There are great books on conversos and fake conversos.
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

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PugChief-

Oh, you're talking about the rootless people in the Iberian peninsula who collaborated with the Muslim invasion. Their people had demonstrated that They were a direct threat to the Spanish crown. After the reconquista succeeded (after many centuries), the wondering people were given the choice to leave Iberia or enter the Church.
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

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murphy_p_t wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:06 pm PugChief-

Oh, you're talking about the rootless people in the Iberian peninsula who collaborated with the Muslim invasion. Their people had demonstrated that They were a direct threat to the Spanish crown. After the reconquista succeeded (after many centuries), the wondering people were given the choice to leave Iberia or enter the Church.
Those Sephardi. You can’t turn your back on them. Basically Arabs. That Torquemada taught them a thing or two. ???
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

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O0 It’s always that charge of collaboration with the enemy, stabbing the righteous natives in the back that excuses the pogroms and torture of those rootless people, eh, Murph?
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

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Is this brief article complete fiction?

http://www.judaism-islam.com/jews-opene ... of-toledo/

In the spring of 711, a Muslim army invaded Iberia led by Tariq ibn Ziyad, serving the Arab governor Musa ibn Nusayr, at Guadalete they swiftly defeated Roderick (Luthariq) the Visigoth King and then marched northward to the Visigoth capital of Toledo. Both Latin and Arabic chroniclers record that the Jews of the city “opened the gates of Toledo” to Tariq, who conquered the city. With more cities to take Tariq left Toledo and entrusted its protection to a garrison of Jewish soldiers, whom had rose up against the Catholic Visigoths and opened the gates.

When Tariq’s master, Musa ibn Nusayr, arrived in Iberia with a large Arab force he seized Seville and like Tariq before him, he entrusted the city to its Jewish inhabitants until his return.
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

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https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-12-14- ... ssary.html

Asymptomatic spread is pseudoscience. It is (now) perfectly safe to leave your mask at home.
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

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Yup, that article references the same study from China (well, it references the Epoch Times referencing it). At any rate, this is how SCIENCE! works. One study has a finding, then subsequent studies are unable to replicate that finding (asymptomatic spread).
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

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I’m stealthily growing a beard under my mask. Only the wife knows. She hates it. I think the cat likes it.
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

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murphy_p_t wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:02 am https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-12-14- ... ssary.html

Asymptomatic spread is pseudoscience. It is (now) perfectly safe to leave your mask at home.
If a writer/news source wants me to take a story seriously, why write crappily like this? I am perfectly willing to believe asymptomatic spread is not a major vector, but when they write shit sarcastically like this and reference the Epoch Times, they are catering to a certain group who already believes what they are writing and are doing nothing to convince others like me.

--Chinese Virus
--300 “cases” (using quotes, implying "not real")
--WuFlu
--absolutely no reason to continue forcing healthy people to block their breathing holes with made-in-China plastic or fabric
--push snake oil woo-woo as the “cure” for the WuWuFlu.
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

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dualstow wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:45 am I’m stealthily growing a beard under my mask. Only the wife knows. She hates it. I think the cat likes it.
Earlier today I got a request from a coworker for me to send her a picture of me for the organization's newsletter.

I sent her one taken of me outdoors, in shorts, taken on November 17, 2020, the last warm day in a series of unseasonably warm days.

Since I've been working at home starting mid-March I've not trimmed any hairs on my body.

She is my youngest co-worker (mid-20s) and this is the response I got from her: "Wow check out your beard! Nice!"

Prior only one other coworker had seen the beard. Definitely by far the longest beard I'd ever had in my life. And, still growing! So long that I just started shampooing it after I shampoo my hair during my daily shower.

Vinny
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

Post by Tortoise »

So apparently Tom Cruise went on a Christian Bale-level rant on set recently about the crew breaking Covid rules.

I gotta say, though, the mask he's wearing in that first photo is fucking boss. I want one.
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

Post by Kriegsspiel »

Cortopassi wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:19 am
murphy_p_t wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 4:02 am https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-12-14- ... ssary.html

Asymptomatic spread is pseudoscience. It is (now) perfectly safe to leave your mask at home.
If a writer/news source wants me to take a story seriously, why write crappily like this? I am perfectly willing to believe asymptomatic spread is not a major vector, but when they write shit sarcastically like this and reference the Epoch Times, they are catering to a certain group who already believes what they are writing and are doing nothing to convince others like me.

--Chinese Virus
--300 “cases” (using quotes, implying "not real")
--WuFlu
--absolutely no reason to continue forcing healthy people to block their breathing holes with made-in-China plastic or fabric
--push snake oil woo-woo as the “cure” for the WuWuFlu.
The one murphy posted is obviously geared towards a specific audience, but the Epoch Times one is pretty straight forward.

It's unfortunate your preferred news companies aren't informing you about this though. That seems like a real problem.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

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Tortoise wrote: Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:18 pm So apparently Tom Cruise went on a Christian Bale-level rant on set recently about the crew breaking Covid rules.

I gotta say, though, the mask he's wearing in that first photo is fucking boss. I want one.
The whole rant was a clever way to advertise that mask.
He made Scientology look bad, though, with his ragey behavior. Tainting their sparkling reputation.
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Re: Masks are Liberals’ Burkhas

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