Should a nation have a culture? Can a nation have many of them?

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Should a nation have a culture? Can a nation have many of them?

Post by I Shrugged » Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:35 pm

People like to associate with others like themselves. Anyone who doesn't buy that is just kidding themselves. People often tolerate other cultures, enjoy their food, and can be on nice, friendly terms. But when big important differences arise, we retreat back to our own sides.

In the past, there was an American culture. It left plenty of room for religious and immigrant sub-cultures, but above it all was the American culture. I don't think there is one now. It's fracturing, and I don't think it can be salvaged. So, when we no longer have an American culture, how much longer will the USA last?

Can there be a USA with several opposing cultures? I don't see how.
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Re: Should a nation have a culture? Can a nation have many of them?

Post by Mark Leavy » Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:58 pm

One of my favorite reads - and I go back to it time and again is Snow Crash. Not just because it is good romp, but also because it has been eerily prophetic. Published almost 30 years ago. If there were ever a prophet for our times it would be Neal Stephenson. Most of the technology envisioned in the book has come to pass. In fact, I may have used some of it as a roadmap for my own work :)

In Stephenson's dystopian future, the federal government becomes irrelevant and everything is run by mega international corporations. And one of the features of the country is that you can "buy into" burbs (suburbs) that are specifically tailored to a given culture.
Much of the world's territory has been carved up into sovereign enclaves, each run by its own big business franchise (such as "Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong", or the corporatized American Mafia), or various residential burbclaves — quasi-sovereign gated communities.
And for Libertarian666...
This arrangement resembles anarcho-capitalism, a theme Stephenson carries over to his next novel The Diamond Age. As described in both novels, and the short story "The Great Simoleon Caper" (1995), hyperinflation has sapped the value of the US dollar to the extent that trillion dollar bills—Ed Meeses—are nearly disregarded and the quadrillion dollar note—the Gipper—is the standard "small" bill. This hyperinflation was created by the government overprinting money, due to loss of tax revenues, as people increasingly began to use electronic currency, exchanged in encrypted online transactions and thus untaxable. For physical transactions, they resort to alternative currencies such as yen or "Kongbucks" (the official currency of Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong). Hyperinflation has also negatively affected much of the rest of the world (with some exceptions like Japan), resulting in waves of desperate refugees from Asia who cross the Pacific in rickety ships hoping to arrive in North America.
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Re: Should a nation have a culture? Can a nation have many of them?

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Sep 26, 2020 8:36 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:35 pm
People like to associate with others like themselves. Anyone who doesn't buy that is just kidding themselves. People often tolerate other cultures, enjoy their food, and can be on nice, friendly terms. But when big important differences arise, we retreat back to our own sides.

In the past, there was an American culture. It left plenty of room for religious and immigrant sub-cultures, but above it all was the American culture. I don't think there is one now. It's fracturing, and I don't think it can be salvaged. So, when we no longer have an American culture, how much longer will the USA last?

Can there be a USA with several opposing cultures? I don't see how.
Not only people but most animals associate with others like themselves. I may have shared this story before, if so pardon the repeat.

My friend has a dog she takes to the dog sitter place frequently. When she pulls up to the place which has a large fenced area for the dogs to play in, her dog gets excited. She takes it in to the checkin counter, then it is released into the fenced area. It immediately runs to join other dogs of a similar type. The dogs all self-segrate into those similar type tribes. Large dogs with large dogs, furry dogs with others of that type, Beagles with other Beagles, Huskies with Huskies, and so forth. Fascinating! On the positive side, the dogs have learned how to share a common area (the fenced area) without many dog fights. Hopefully, we USAers can learn the same behavior after all the alpha (dogs) people (owners of the fenced area) settle down to pursue their work and play and stop picking on those who are different in thoughts, words, and deeds.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Should a nation have a culture? Can a nation have many of them?

Post by dualstow » Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:30 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:58 pm
One of my favorite reads - and I go back to it time and again is Snow Crash. Not just because it is good romp, but also because it has been eerily prophetic. Published almost 30 years ago. If there were ever a prophet for our times it would be Neal Stephenson. Most of the technology envisioned in the book has come to pass. In fact, I may have used some of it as a roadmap for my own work :)

In Stephenson's dystopian future, the federal government becomes irrelevant and everything is run by mega international corporations. And one of the features of the country is that you can "buy into" burbs (suburbs) that are specifically tailored to a given culture.
Much of the world's territory has been carved up into sovereign enclaves, each run by its own big business franchise (such as "Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong", or the corporatized American Mafia), or various residential burbclaves — quasi-sovereign gated communities.
...
...


Cool. I bought ‘Snow Crash’ at a library sale in the FL Keys because I loved ‘The Diamond Age’ so much, but I haven’t brought the book home yet.
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Post by Mark Leavy » Sat Sep 26, 2020 2:37 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:30 am
Cool. I bought ‘Snow Crash’ at a library sale in the FL Keys because I loved ‘The Diamond Age’ so much, but I haven’t brought the book home yet.
The Diamond Age is seriously good. For a whole bunch of reasons. I finally read it about a year ago.

It also has a great description of different communities optimized towards the preferences of their inhabitants. I think I would have (will?) seriously enjoy the the Neo-Victorian phyle. Simply brilliant.
The book distinguishes three Great Phyles: the Han (consisting of Han Chinese), the Neo-Victorian New Atlantis (consisting largely of Anglo-Saxons, but also accepting Indians, Africans, and other members of the Anglosphere who identify with the culture) and Nippon (consisting of Japanese). The novel raises the question as to whether Hindustan (consisting of Hindu Indians) is a fourth Great Phyle, or a "riotously diverse collection of microtribes sintered together according to some formula we don't get."
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Re: Should a nation have a culture? Can a nation have many of them?

Post by Libertarian666 » Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:03 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Fri Sep 25, 2020 6:58 pm
One of my favorite reads - and I go back to it time and again is Snow Crash. Not just because it is good romp, but also because it has been eerily prophetic. Published almost 30 years ago. If there were ever a prophet for our times it would be Neal Stephenson. Most of the technology envisioned in the book has come to pass. In fact, I may have used some of it as a roadmap for my own work :)

In Stephenson's dystopian future, the federal government becomes irrelevant and everything is run by mega international corporations. And one of the features of the country is that you can "buy into" burbs (suburbs) that are specifically tailored to a given culture.
Much of the world's territory has been carved up into sovereign enclaves, each run by its own big business franchise (such as "Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong", or the corporatized American Mafia), or various residential burbclaves — quasi-sovereign gated communities.
And for Libertarian666...
This arrangement resembles anarcho-capitalism, a theme Stephenson carries over to his next novel The Diamond Age. As described in both novels, and the short story "The Great Simoleon Caper" (1995), hyperinflation has sapped the value of the US dollar to the extent that trillion dollar bills—Ed Meeses—are nearly disregarded and the quadrillion dollar note—the Gipper—is the standard "small" bill. This hyperinflation was created by the government overprinting money, due to loss of tax revenues, as people increasingly began to use electronic currency, exchanged in encrypted online transactions and thus untaxable. For physical transactions, they resort to alternative currencies such as yen or "Kongbucks" (the official currency of Mr. Lee's Greater Hong Kong). Hyperinflation has also negatively affected much of the rest of the world (with some exceptions like Japan), resulting in waves of desperate refugees from Asia who cross the Pacific in rickety ships hoping to arrive in North America.
I've read it. Yes, it is exciting but too unpleasant for me to read again.

And that "system" resembles anarcho-capitalism the way that leftist smears of the mixed capitalism we have now resemble the actual current system: in other words, it's a parody, not a fair description.

If you want the latter, of course there is the very well-known "Moon Is a Harsh Mistress", which is excellent.

But even above that I would recommend one of my all-time favorites, "Voyage from Yesteryear" by James P. Hogan. I read it every couple of years to lift my spirits, even if I'm not feeling discouraged.
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Re: Should a nation have a culture? Can a nation have many of them?

Post by Mark Leavy » Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:58 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:03 pm
But even above that I would recommend one of my all-time favorites, "Voyage from Yesteryear" by James P. Hogan. I read it every couple of years to lift my spirits, even if I'm not feeling discouraged.
Never heard of it, but it sounds like just the kind of thing I enjoy. On the list! Thanks.

And to I Shrugged, my apologies for derailing your thread.

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Re: Should a nation have a culture? Can a nation have many of them?

Post by pp4me » Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:18 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:58 pm
And to I Shrugged, my apologies for derailing your thread.
To get back on topic I wonder if a multicultural country is more or less susceptible to a communist revolution?

Russia, China, Cuba, Vietnam - not exactly multicultural. And as is the case with China and Muslims they apparently intend to stay that way.
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Re: Should a nation have a culture? Can a nation have many of them?

Post by Libertarian666 » Sat Sep 26, 2020 6:33 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 5:58 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 4:03 pm
But even above that I would recommend one of my all-time favorites, "Voyage from Yesteryear" by James P. Hogan. I read it every couple of years to lift my spirits, even if I'm not feeling discouraged.
Never heard of it, but it sounds like just the kind of thing I enjoy. On the list! Thanks.

Mark
It has just about the best plot twists and futuristic technology of any science fiction novel I've read, which is quite a few. Please let me know how you like it.
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Re: Should a nation have a culture? Can a nation have many of them?

Post by stuper1 » Sat Sep 26, 2020 9:48 pm

Thanks, just ordered it from the library. A lot of good fiction is depressing, so it's nice to get leads on books that aren't. I did enjoy The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, which I heard about from you a few months ago.

COVID-19 has been good for encouraging reading. I got through Atlas Shrugged. It was great until about the last 100 pages when it got pretty cheesy. Still worth reading.
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Re: Should a nation have a culture? Can a nation have many of them?

Post by Hal » Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:49 am

tomfoolery wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:46 pm
I dont think there's a problem with having different cultures as long as all of the cultures are objectively good.

At the risk of being lumped in as a racist myself, the White Supremacist Thomas Sowell wrote several books and essays on African-American culture and how destructive it is. Some specific points:

Studying in school is frowned upon and your classmates will beat you up and bully you for trying to excel
Speaking proper English is frowned upon and your peers with bully and beat you
Dressing neatly is frowned upon. Dressing in a style that mimics prison inmates with baggy ill fitting clothing is revered
Violence is encouraged and promoted
Songs about violence against women and violence against police are at the top of the hip hop charts
Joining gangs is encouraged
Having children out of wedlock is considered acceptable even when the single mother lacks the means to support the child solo

Compare this to Jewish culture and Mormon culture where education is revered. The family unit is considered sacred and children have fathers. I don't see Jewish kids beating the shit out of each other in their private Jewish schools or doing drive-by shootings against each other.

Hispanic culture in the US is very hard-working. Immigrant culture is general is very hard working. African-American culture is very victimization-based where they can't possibly do better because they are being held back by systemic racism. Immigrant culture is we recognize we're behind the curve and lack familial wealth so let's work 3 jobs to provide for our family and hopefully our grandchildren will have better lives for it.

African-American culture is let's set the city on fire and steal sneakers because the system is against us.

I think it's okay to have different cultures as long as all of the cultures are objectively good to promote the economic, physical, and intellectual well-being of the constituents of that culture. The predominance of a certain skin color that makes up a certain culture is irrelevant. If Jewish culture involved singing songs about burning down government buildings and dropping out of high school to deal drugs, then I'd say Jewish culture sucks and is destructive to the country.

I know I sound racist, but I swear I haven't been watching Fox News, I'm just reading that white supremacist literature from Thomas Sowell.
Just like to add, you can have different cultures in the same ethnic group.

The following I personally experienced in a 100% white, small town school:
Studying in school is frowned upon and your classmates will beat you up and bully you for trying to excel
Speaking proper English is frowned upon and your peers with bully and beat you
Dressing neatly is frowned upon.
Violence is encouraged and promoted

Amazingly, the teacher actually said to my father "It is inappropriate to send your children to this school if you wish them to have an education". In a 10 year period only one student got above 80% in the final year. Actually made it into the local newspaper :o

Yet working in the Army, which had many races, the culture was "MUCH" better.
Can't comment on the US, but this was my experience in Australia

Edit: Also noted other small towns, which were also 100% white, had completely different (better) cultures. These were founded back in the 1800's by the Lutherans. The towns are about 60 miles apart and it is interesting to note, even today, the different attitudes in towns founded for mining as compared to farming.
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Re: Should a nation have a culture? Can a nation have many of them?

Post by vnatale » Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:24 am

Hal wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:49 am
tomfoolery wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:46 pm
I dont think there's a problem with having different cultures as long as all of the cultures are objectively good.

At the risk of being lumped in as a racist myself, the White Supremacist Thomas Sowell wrote several books and essays on African-American culture and how destructive it is. Some specific points:

Studying in school is frowned upon and your classmates will beat you up and bully you for trying to excel
Speaking proper English is frowned upon and your peers with bully and beat you
Dressing neatly is frowned upon. Dressing in a style that mimics prison inmates with baggy ill fitting clothing is revered
Violence is encouraged and promoted
Songs about violence against women and violence against police are at the top of the hip hop charts
Joining gangs is encouraged
Having children out of wedlock is considered acceptable even when the single mother lacks the means to support the child solo

Compare this to Jewish culture and Mormon culture where education is revered. The family unit is considered sacred and children have fathers. I don't see Jewish kids beating the shit out of each other in their private Jewish schools or doing drive-by shootings against each other.

Hispanic culture in the US is very hard-working. Immigrant culture is general is very hard working. African-American culture is very victimization-based where they can't possibly do better because they are being held back by systemic racism. Immigrant culture is we recognize we're behind the curve and lack familial wealth so let's work 3 jobs to provide for our family and hopefully our grandchildren will have better lives for it.

African-American culture is let's set the city on fire and steal sneakers because the system is against us.

I think it's okay to have different cultures as long as all of the cultures are objectively good to promote the economic, physical, and intellectual well-being of the constituents of that culture. The predominance of a certain skin color that makes up a certain culture is irrelevant. If Jewish culture involved singing songs about burning down government buildings and dropping out of high school to deal drugs, then I'd say Jewish culture sucks and is destructive to the country.

I know I sound racist, but I swear I haven't been watching Fox News, I'm just reading that white supremacist literature from Thomas Sowell.
Just like to add, you can have different cultures in the same ethnic group.

The following I personally experienced in a 100% white, small town school:
Studying in school is frowned upon and your classmates will beat you up and bully you for trying to excel
Speaking proper English is frowned upon and your peers with bully and beat you
Dressing neatly is frowned upon.
Violence is encouraged and promoted

Amazingly, the teacher actually said to my father "It is inappropriate to send your children to this school if you wish them to have an education". In a 10 year period only one student got above 80% in the final year. Actually made it into the local newspaper :o

Yet working in the Army, which had many races, the culture was "MUCH" better.
Can't comment on the US, but this was my experience in Australia

Edit: Also noted other small towns, which were also 100% white, had completely different (better) cultures. These were founded back in the 1800's by the Lutherans. The towns are about 60 miles apart and it is interesting to note, even today, the different attitudes in towns founded for mining as compared to farming.
Thank you for reminding me to ask a question I wanted to direct to those who have been in the United States military.

My perception is that there is a much higher level of achievement in the military by Afro-Americans and other minorities than there is in the general American society.

There seems to be two primary reasons for this.

1) Afro-Americans and other minorities can tend to be over represented in the military because it is an almost always available "job" opportunity whereas there may be quite limited job opportunities where they live.

2) The military may be more color blind, egalitarian, merit based than the average in American society?

Am I on or off base? And, are there any major factors I am omitting?

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Re: Should a nation have a culture? Can a nation have many of them?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:23 am

vnatale wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:24 am
Hal wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:49 am
Yet working in the Army, which had many races, the culture was "MUCH" better.
Can't comment on the US, but this was my experience in Australia
Thank you for reminding me to ask a question I wanted to direct to those who have been in the United States military.

My perception is that there is a much higher level of achievement in the military by Afro-Americans and other minorities than there is in the general American society.

There seems to be two primary reasons for this.

1) Afro-Americans and other minorities can tend to be over represented in the military because it is an almost always available "job" opportunity whereas there may be quite limited job opportunities where they live.

2) The military may be more color blind, egalitarian, merit based than the average in American society?

Am I on or off base? And, are there any major factors I am omitting?

Vinny
The military discriminates against low intelligence and low moral-character citizens. It's also a highly structured and disciplined lifestyle. Those are two big factors, maybe the biggest, in high achievement.
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Re: Should a nation have a culture? Can a nation have many of them?

Post by Xan » Mon Sep 28, 2020 3:12 pm

This kind of question makes me wonder whether modern liberal states really can continue to exist long-term.

I heard a phenomenal interview a couple years ago about integralism - the belief that (in this case) Roman Catholicism should be the basis of public life - and it focused on the story of a Jewish baby in (IIRC) the Papal States who had been illicitly baptized by a housekeeper or something. It was determined that it would be wrong for the Church to allow the baptized infant to be raised by unbelieving parents, and so the Church took the baby. He ended up being largely raised by the Pope himself and became a priest.

It sounds to us like a great wrong. But that's coming from our "liberal" perspective, where we try to say some version of "to each his own". But there are limits on that. And does liberal society actually welcome multiple views? Or does it only do so if everyone acknowledges liberal society as the most important thing, and then whatever else you believe comes after it? And if that's the case, then how is it different from being free to do as you will so long as you acknowledge Caesar as god-emperor?

Another point is that here in our liberal society the time will come when a "transgendered" kid is taken away from his parents by the state to be raised by different parents who toe the party line of transgenderism. Is that any different from the baptized Jew?

https://issuesetc.org/2018/02/20/0514-a ... s-2-20-18/

PS - IIRC, Jewish families took to requiring some kind of affidavit from those in their employ that they would not perform any baptisms on family members.
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Re: Should a nation have a culture? Can a nation have many of them?

Post by stuper1 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 12:12 pm

As many have noted, for many of these liberals, these have ceased to be political issues and are now religious issues. They are engaging in cultish behavior. Reason and rationality have gone out the window. They see fascists behind every bush, even though true fascists are nowhere, but can't see that their own behavior is as authoritarian as the Nazis. I suppose that could be called projection.
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