Do term limits make sense?

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glennds
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Do term limits make sense?

Post by glennds » Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:10 am

Alexander Hamilton laid out several arguments against term limits in the Federalist Papers. Among them, lame duck risk if there is no incentive for a President to earn re-election. Also, the risk of a forced break in continuity in a time of crisis. Possibly most importantly, depriving the people of a proven democratic choice they might otherwise want to keep.

However I understand some of the arguments going in the other direction too. And I'm familiar with the historical backdrop post-FDR that caused the 22nd Amendment to come to be. However it is also a fact that pre-22nd Amendment only five Presidents tried to go for a third term and all failed except FDR, so it's not like extensive presidential term was a persisting problem.

What are your thoughts on whether presidential term limits ought to exist?

On a related note, if we limit our President's term, why don't we limit members of Congress, many of whom have served for decades.
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Re: Do term limits make sense?

Post by boglerdude » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:18 am

They're needed to keep politicians from getting too powerful. Too many connections and back room deals. Note how rich everyone in congress gets

Being a politician requires no special skill. In contrast with a surgeon, whom you wouldnt want to retire. Maybe we should go even further and randomly select congressmen from a pool of those willing to do it.

Limits/change is needed in middle management too. Once someone becomes friends with their boss, they can do much less work. Churn is needed to break up friendships.
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Re: Do term limits make sense?

Post by shekels » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:23 am

Well if not term limits, to thin out the career politicians.
Maybe reduced salary with their nearly 200,000 dollar salary.
While we are at it put limits on their Perks.
The average U.S. salary is 50-60 thousand.

Would it be a more sought after job after the reductions in salary and Perks, or is there more to it?
Power corrupts.
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technovelist
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Re: Do term limits make sense?

Post by technovelist » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:51 pm

shekels wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:23 am
Well if not term limits, to thin out the career politicians.
Maybe reduced salary with their nearly 200,000 dollar salary.
While we are at it put limits on their Perks.
The average U.S. salary is 50-60 thousand.

Would it be a more sought after job after the reductions in salary and Perks, or is there more to it?
Power corrupts.
My solution is to have Congresspersons picked by a lottery, similar to jury duty.
Pay them $250,000 cash compensation a year for one term, no repeats, no fringe benefits, no retirement benefits, no government contractor jobs afterwards.
If it's good enough for a jury that can decide a person's freedom, it's good enough for lawmakers.
Another nod to the most beautiful equation: e + 1 = 0
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Cortopassi
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Re: Do term limits make sense?

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:04 pm

technovelist wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:51 pm
shekels wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:23 am
Well if not term limits, to thin out the career politicians.
Maybe reduced salary with their nearly 200,000 dollar salary.
While we are at it put limits on their Perks.
The average U.S. salary is 50-60 thousand.

Would it be a more sought after job after the reductions in salary and Perks, or is there more to it?
Power corrupts.
My solution is to have Congresspersons picked by a lottery, similar to jury duty.
Pay them $250,000 cash compensation a year for one term, no repeats, no fringe benefits, no retirement benefits, no government contractor jobs afterwards.
If it's good enough for a jury that can decide a person's freedom, it's good enough for lawmakers.
Hey, we agree on something! :D
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vnatale
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Re: Do term limits make sense?

Post by vnatale » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:16 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:04 pm
technovelist wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:51 pm
shekels wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:23 am
Well if not term limits, to thin out the career politicians.
Maybe reduced salary with their nearly 200,000 dollar salary.
While we are at it put limits on their Perks.
The average U.S. salary is 50-60 thousand.

Would it be a more sought after job after the reductions in salary and Perks, or is there more to it?
Power corrupts.
My solution is to have Congresspersons picked by a lottery, similar to jury duty.
Pay them $250,000 cash compensation a year for one term, no repeats, no fringe benefits, no retirement benefits, no government contractor jobs afterwards.
If it's good enough for a jury that can decide a person's freedom, it's good enough for lawmakers.
Hey, we agree on something! :D
If no one else is going to disagree, then I will. Juries are dealing with a limited set of circumstances. Being in the House or the Senate requires attention to a multitude of matters. Not a job for the person off the street.

I'm as critical of politicians as everyone else. But I'm a firm believer in that saying: "You get the government that you deserve."

Everyone wants to throw out all the politicians except for the ones who bring them their goodies.

If politicians actually acted in the public good, they'd never win a second term because the public would never allow them to do the right things. The public wants their politicians to only serve their narrow interests.

Vinny
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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technovelist
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Re: Do term limits make sense?

Post by technovelist » Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:23 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:16 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:04 pm
technovelist wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:51 pm
shekels wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:23 am
Well if not term limits, to thin out the career politicians.
Maybe reduced salary with their nearly 200,000 dollar salary.
While we are at it put limits on their Perks.
The average U.S. salary is 50-60 thousand.

Would it be a more sought after job after the reductions in salary and Perks, or is there more to it?
Power corrupts.
My solution is to have Congresspersons picked by a lottery, similar to jury duty.
Pay them $250,000 cash compensation a year for one term, no repeats, no fringe benefits, no retirement benefits, no government contractor jobs afterwards.
If it's good enough for a jury that can decide a person's freedom, it's good enough for lawmakers.
Hey, we agree on something! :D
If no one else is going to disagree, then I will. Juries are dealing with a limited set of circumstances. Being in the House or the Senate requires attention to a multitude of matters. Not a job for the person off the street.

I'm as critical of politicians as everyone else. But I'm a firm believer in that saying: "You get the government that you deserve."

Everyone wants to throw out all the politicians except for the ones who bring them their goodies.

If politicians actually acted in the public good, they'd never win a second term because the public would never allow them to do the right things. The public wants their politicians to only serve their narrow interests.

Vinny
Do you deny that if Hank "Guam could tip over" Johnson or Maxine "retard" Waters (and I could name many more of equal value) can be a Representative, then literally anyone who can tie his own shoelaces could do it at least as well, and without all the corruption?
Another nod to the most beautiful equation: e + 1 = 0
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Re: Do term limits make sense?

Post by vnatale » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:13 am

technovelist wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:23 pm
vnatale wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:16 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:04 pm
technovelist wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:51 pm
shekels wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:23 am
Well if not term limits, to thin out the career politicians.
Maybe reduced salary with their nearly 200,000 dollar salary.
While we are at it put limits on their Perks.
The average U.S. salary is 50-60 thousand.

Would it be a more sought after job after the reductions in salary and Perks, or is there more to it?
Power corrupts.
My solution is to have Congresspersons picked by a lottery, similar to jury duty.
Pay them $250,000 cash compensation a year for one term, no repeats, no fringe benefits, no retirement benefits, no government contractor jobs afterwards.
If it's good enough for a jury that can decide a person's freedom, it's good enough for lawmakers.
Hey, we agree on something! :D
If no one else is going to disagree, then I will. Juries are dealing with a limited set of circumstances. Being in the House or the Senate requires attention to a multitude of matters. Not a job for the person off the street.

I'm as critical of politicians as everyone else. But I'm a firm believer in that saying: "You get the government that you deserve."

Everyone wants to throw out all the politicians except for the ones who bring them their goodies.

If politicians actually acted in the public good, they'd never win a second term because the public would never allow them to do the right things. The public wants their politicians to only serve their narrow interests.

Vinny
Do you deny that if Hank "Guam could tip over" Johnson or Maxine "retard" Waters (and I could name many more of equal value) can be a Representative, then literally anyone who can tie his own shoelaces could do it at least as well, and without all the corruption?
You choosing the bottom of the barrel does not make the point. The same way pointing out the worse in our respective professions does not mean anyone could do our work.

Vinny
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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technovelist
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Re: Do term limits make sense?

Post by technovelist » Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:40 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:13 am
technovelist wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:23 pm
vnatale wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:16 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:04 pm
technovelist wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:51 pm
shekels wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:23 am
Well if not term limits, to thin out the career politicians.
Maybe reduced salary with their nearly 200,000 dollar salary.
While we are at it put limits on their Perks.
The average U.S. salary is 50-60 thousand.

Would it be a more sought after job after the reductions in salary and Perks, or is there more to it?
Power corrupts.
My solution is to have Congresspersons picked by a lottery, similar to jury duty.
Pay them $250,000 cash compensation a year for one term, no repeats, no fringe benefits, no retirement benefits, no government contractor jobs afterwards.
If it's good enough for a jury that can decide a person's freedom, it's good enough for lawmakers.
Hey, we agree on something! :D
If no one else is going to disagree, then I will. Juries are dealing with a limited set of circumstances. Being in the House or the Senate requires attention to a multitude of matters. Not a job for the person off the street.

I'm as critical of politicians as everyone else. But I'm a firm believer in that saying: "You get the government that you deserve."

Everyone wants to throw out all the politicians except for the ones who bring them their goodies.

If politicians actually acted in the public good, they'd never win a second term because the public would never allow them to do the right things. The public wants their politicians to only serve their narrow interests.

Vinny
Do you deny that if Hank "Guam could tip over" Johnson or Maxine "retard" Waters (and I could name many more of equal value) can be a Representative, then literally anyone who can tie his own shoelaces could do it at least as well, and without all the corruption?
You choosing the bottom of the barrel does not make the point. The same way pointing out the worse in our respective professions does not mean anyone could do our work.

Vinny
You said, "Being in the House or the Senate requires attention to a multitude of matters. Not a job for the person off the street."

In the case of the House of Representatives, the bottom of the barrel encompasses much of the actual detritus in that august chamber. There are probably 10% of the House who are actually worth anything.

So if I had the choice of keeping what we have or replacing them with randomly chosen people, I would choose the latter.
Another nod to the most beautiful equation: e + 1 = 0
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Xan
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Re: Do term limits make sense?

Post by Xan » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:50 am

I think Tech's plan is better than what we have now.

Here's what I've considered, and I think it's closer to the Founding Fathers' vision: go back to the ratio of citizens to Congressmen when the Republic started. Yes, this would mean tens of thousands of Congressmen instead of 435. I believe with technology today it could be done. Have them all subject to recall and replacement at any time.

The House is meant to be the voice of the people. We can do better than what we have now.

The Senate should of course go back to being selected by the state legislatures.
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Re: Do term limits make sense?

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:55 am

There would need to be some reasonable guidelines, I'd think:

Once you got picked by lottery, you are checked for

--Must be a high school graduate
--Must pass a basic intelligence test, whatever that might be that doesn't offend somebody or some group
--Must not have any current government business ties, i.e. can't currently be the CEO of Lockheed
--No direct relatives in the federal government

And, you can easily opt out by saying no, i.e. not have to prove a hardship like jury duty. I mean, if I have 3 kids in grade school and I get called and I don't want to uproot them for 4 years to Washington, I should be able to say no.

I don't know what this does to the pool. Not sure how many people would want to go to Washington even for 250k.

But this is all just a pipe dream.
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Re: Do term limits make sense?

Post by Xan » Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:56 am

Moving to Washington is an anachronism. 30,000 Congressmen can remain where they live. They just need to vote (electronically) the way their neighbors want them to.
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