If you actually think black lives matter, watch this ad

[Tortoise]

Look up the book by Jared Taylor called "Paved with Good Intentions: the failure of race relations in contemporary America". He has a good discussion of the problems. The problem is basically big government and other forces breaking up families and creating welfare dependency. Government can't solve the problem. Government is the problem.

Is the government doing the same thing in African countries?

[Cortopassi]

Any idea why the rate is so high in Russia, where there's only 0.1% black people?

[Libertarian666]

Look up the book by Jared Taylor called "Paved with Good Intentions: the failure of race relations in contemporary America". He has a good discussion of the problems. The problem is basically big government and other forces breaking up families and creating welfare dependency. Government can't solve the problem. Government is the problem.

Is the government doing the same thing in African countries?

Their governments are much worse than ours. They don't bother with welfare dependency because it's too expensive. Instead, their cultures wallow in barbarism without any outside help.

For details of why, read "The Bell Curve".

[Tortoise]

Any idea why the rate is so high in Russia, where there's only 0.1% black people?

Probably organized crime, similar to why the homicide rate is so high in many Latin American countries where drug cartels are in control. Russia is not a rich Western nation. It's a BRIC nation (Brazil, Russia, India, and China), so it's plagued by rampant organized crime and various other issues that the U.S. doesn't have.

Not sure what you're trying to get at now, Cortopassi. You originally asked why the U.S. homicide rate is so much higher than that of other rich Western nations (which, as I just pointed out, does not include Russia). It seems to me that your question was satisfactorily answered by the fact that the most obvious difference between the U.S. and other rich Western nations is that the U.S. has many more black and Hispanic citizens.

[Cortopassi]

No, you answered it.

I've just been sitting trying to process it. Really, I am. Not trying to be a dick. Take this however you want.

Reading 1, 2 hours ago: More black people = more homicides. Sounds racist. Whether intended or not. I threw in Russia to see how you'd respond. You pegged that to organized crime, not to skin color.

Reading 2, just now: More black people = more homicides. A fact, sad but true. Russia from organized crime. Likely also a fact.

So in the past 2 hours, I have gone from reading your initial response thinking you are flat out equating skin color to inclination to kill people, to it just being a fact.

Give me some credit for that please, but also understand how your initial wording could be very easily taken the wrong way.

What I wish is there was some way to fix it.

[stuper1]

Do you have any black peers or co-workers? Ask them what can be done to improve the situation.

I imagine what they'll say is that it comes down to personal choice and responsibility. About the best that government can do is to encourage a strong economy so that there are a lot of jobs available to those who are willing to work.

[Cortopassi]

Do you have any black peers or co-workers? Ask them what can be done to improve the situation.

I imagine what they'll say is that it comes down to personal choice and responsibility. About the best that government can do is to encourage a strong economy so that there are a lot of jobs available to those who are willing to work.

I do. He's an engineer and his son is a pilot. I agree on the responsibility and jobs 100%. I think the difficulty comes in with the entrenched gangs and lifestyle -- if I can sell drugs and make 10x what I can at a real job and don't need to know anything other than how to intimidate people and use a gun, how's is that cycle broken.

I suppose it is the same in Russia with the mob and was/is in Sicily with the mob. You get forced in to prevent getting yourself harmed, or lured in probably by easy money, but you can't get out.

[Xan]

Do you have any black peers or co-workers? Ask them what can be done to improve the situation.

I imagine what they'll say is that it comes down to personal choice and responsibility. About the best that government can do is to encourage a strong economy so that there are a lot of jobs available to those who are willing to work.

I do. He's an engineer and his son is a pilot. I agree on the responsibility and jobs 100%. I think the difficulty comes in with the entrenched gangs and lifestyle -- if I can sell drugs and make 10x what I can at a real job and don't need to know anything other than how to intimidate people and use a gun, how's is that cycle broken.

I suppose it is the same in Russia with the mob and was/is in Sicily with the mob. You get forced in to prevent getting yourself harmed, or lured in probably by easy money, but you can't get out.

I think primarily such things are cultural. Some cultures are healthier than others. There's a big mob culture in Sicily, and in Russia. Here, rather than one cohesive culture, we have very strong subcultures, some of which are very sick indeed.

[Tortoise]

Fair enough, Cortopassi. Then I do give you credit for sharing your thought process and for accepting the fact that the racial composition of a society can have a big effect on its homicide rate. And on my end, I accept the fact that race isn't the only factor; other factors like organized crime are huge and can be independent of race.

When we compare countries, we just need to be aware of which of those factors differ between the countries and which ones are similar.

Regarding my wording potentially sounding racist, I understand. But I honestly don't know how that can be avoided -- especially in the current social climate where the label "racist" is tossed around so much that it's lost most of its original meaning.

Some facts are just plain ugly and distasteful, and stating them plainly so as not to be misunderstood will almost certainly rub lots of people the wrong way. Maybe I need to practice using more diplomatic wording when arguing such facts.

Like you, I would also love to see the problem fixed. But when I look at black societies around the world, including in Africa, and note that they exhibit disproportionately high rates of violence and murder everywhere (not just in the U.S.), it discourages me and raises the possibility that there may not be a good fix. Whatever the root problem with black societies is, it appears to be global and not specific to the U.S. or Western culture.

[stuper1]

The word "racist" is stupid. I don't care if anybody calls me a racist, just like I don't care if anybody calls me honky, gringo, cracker, or nigger. I really don't care what anybody thinks about me or calls me. That's their problem. My problem is to try to treat everybody fairly no matter what the color of their skin. If that's not good enough, and somebody thinks they can read my mind and see my true motives, which they judge to be racist, like I say that's their problem.

[stuper1]

Do you have any black peers or co-workers? Ask them what can be done to improve the situation.

I imagine what they'll say is that it comes down to personal choice and responsibility. About the best that government can do is to encourage a strong economy so that there are a lot of jobs available to those who are willing to work.

I do. He's an engineer and his son is a pilot. I agree on the responsibility and jobs 100%. I think the difficulty comes in with the entrenched gangs and lifestyle -- if I can sell drugs and make 10x what I can at a real job and don't need to know anything other than how to intimidate people and use a gun, how's is that cycle broken.

I suppose it is the same in Russia with the mob and was/is in Sicily with the mob. You get forced in to prevent getting yourself harmed, or lured in probably by easy money, but you can't get out.

I think primarily such things are cultural. Some cultures are healthier than others. There's a big mob culture in Sicily, and in Russia. Here, rather than one cohesive culture, we have very strong subcultures, some of which are very sick indeed.

Yes, and like I said before, there is a lot of violence within some of our subcultures, plus there is added violence across some of our subcultures (not surprisingly mainly unidirectional).

[Cortopassi]

Fair enough, Cortopassi. Then I do give you credit for sharing your thought process and for accepting the fact that the racial composition of a society can have a big effect on its homicide rate. And on my end, I accept the fact that race isn't the only factor; other factors like organized crime are huge and can be independent of race.

When we compare countries, we just need to be aware of which of those factors differ between the countries and which ones are similar.

Regarding my wording potentially sounding racist, I understand. But I honestly don't know how that can be avoided -- especially in the current social climate where the label "racist" is tossed around so much that it's lost most of its original meaning.

Some facts are just plain ugly and distasteful, and stating them plainly so as not to be misunderstood will almost certainly rub lots of people the wrong way. Maybe I need to practice using more diplomatic wording when arguing such facts.

Like you, I would also love to see the problem fixed. But when I look at black societies around the world, including in Africa, and note that they exhibit disproportionately high rates of violence and murder everywhere (not just in the U.S.), it discourages me and raises the possibility that there may not be a good fix. Whatever the root problem with black societies is, it appears to be global and not specific to the U.S. or Western culture.

Thanks, man.

Maybe imagine yourself at a podium saying what you want to say to a room full of diverse people. "Why do we have more homicides in America? Because we have more black people."

Yeah, it's a fact, but will not go over well....no matter what you follow that line up with....

[stuper1]

Fair enough, Cortopassi. Then I do give you credit for sharing your thought process and for accepting the fact that the racial composition of a society can have a big effect on its homicide rate. And on my end, I accept the fact that race isn't the only factor; other factors like organized crime are huge and can be independent of race.

When we compare countries, we just need to be aware of which of those factors differ between the countries and which ones are similar.

Regarding my wording potentially sounding racist, I understand. But I honestly don't know how that can be avoided -- especially in the current social climate where the label "racist" is tossed around so much that it's lost most of its original meaning.

Some facts are just plain ugly and distasteful, and stating them plainly so as not to be misunderstood will almost certainly rub lots of people the wrong way. Maybe I need to practice using more diplomatic wording when arguing such facts.

Like you, I would also love to see the problem fixed. But when I look at black societies around the world, including in Africa, and note that they exhibit disproportionately high rates of violence and murder everywhere (not just in the U.S.), it discourages me and raises the possibility that there may not be a good fix. Whatever the root problem with black societies is, it appears to be global and not specific to the U.S. or Western culture.

Thanks, man.

Maybe imagine yourself at a podium saying what you want to say to a room full of diverse people. "Why do we have more homicides in America? Because we have more black people."

Yeah, it's a fact, but will not go over well....no matter what you follow that line up with....

Some black leaders have made statements to that effect at various podiums in attempts to get black culture to wake up to the need for changes. These attempts haven't received much media attention, because media is in bed with big government, which always wants to propose a big government solution to problems.

Imagine a white person making that statement at a podium. The result would probably be a riot in which many people (mainly black) could get killed. Which would just be further proof of the original statement.

[stuper1]

The latest "Conversations with Coleman" podcast is a discussion with Bret Weinstein that covers a lot of the issues we've discussed here. Coleman Hughes is a young black American writer. Hughes says that top-down remedial approaches started by the government won't work.