If you actually think black lives matter, watch this ad

[Cortopassi]

I absolutely agree on the divide by 5 for per capita murder, but then segregating out by race/color, that is certainly an angle you can go down but not what I was getting at. I was getting at that argument guns make it easier to kill people.

So 16214/5 = 3242 murders in the US vs. 671 in the UK, with most in the US by guns.

Our overall murder rate is almost 5x UK's.

I totally understand the "this only happens in certain neighborhoods" argument, for sure. But the bottom line is if there were magically zero guns in the US, I think (could be wrong) that those would not 100% be replaced by stabbings, for example, and our murder rate goes way down closer to other industrialized nations. Regardless of the color of the people shooting.

[Cortopassi]

Pug, why does a country like the UK not have a similar black market for guns? I'm sure they have one for drugs.

Yes, for my plan to work all guns on the planet would need to disappear.

[Tortoise]

I absolutely agree on the divide by 5 for per capita murder, but then segregating out by race/color, that is certainly an angle you can go down but not what I was getting at.

It's not just an angle. It's a necessary adjustment in order to convert an apples-to-oranges comparison into an apples-to-apples comparison.

In our "equation", there are two important variables that affect gun homicide rates: (1) Gun prevalence in U.K. vs. U.S., and (2) racial composition of the population in U.K. vs. U.S.

In order to make a fair comparison that isolates one of those two variables, we have to control for the other variable by removing it from the equation. That's why I adjusted the numbers to remove black and Hispanic homicides from the U.S. -- so we can compare just the non-Hispanic white homicides between the U.K. and the U.S. Apples-to-apples.

Non-Hispanic white people in the U.S. have access to guns and own quite a few of them, right? And non-Hispanic white people in the U.K. generally don't have access to guns, right? Yet the homicide rate for those two groups is in the same ballpark (843 vs. 671). What that tells us is that gun prevalence apparently has little effect on the non-Hispanic white homicide rate in the U.K. and the U.S.

Sorry that conclusion contradicts the point you were trying to make. I just follow the logic.

[Tortoise]

why does a country like the UK not have a similar black market for guns? I'm sure they have one for drugs.

Who says the U.K. doesn't have a black market for guns? I'm sure they do.

Keep in mind, black people (the most likely to commit gun violence) only comprise 3% of the population of the U.K. So the U.K.'s black market in guns probably doesn't move the needle much on the U.K.'s total homicide rate.

[shekels]

Yes, for my plan to work all guns on the planet would need to disappear.

pfffft

[Libertarian666]

Pug, why does a country like the UK not have a similar black market for guns? I'm sure they have one for drugs.

Yes, for my plan to work all guns on the planet would need to disappear.

If that were to happen, women would be much more vulnerable to attack than they are now, at least in places where concealed carry is prevalent.

There's a reason the Colt .45 was called "The Equalizer": it made even the smallest person able to defend himself or herself against an attacker.

[shekels]

When you suggest "Gun Bad" you may also want to discuss how many people were Saved by " Defensive Gun Use".
Try discussing a plan from the standpoint of "Gun Good".
We have over 300 million Guns in the U.S. for a purpose, yet guns don't kill 300 million people in the U.S.

Guns for self defense will not disappear voluntarily.
Hitler/Mao/Stalin have made it clear, and terms you can believe.

[Cortopassi]

This was a theoretical discussion. I know we can’t get rid of guns.

My thoughts lately have been along these lines, esp since we keep on talking about BLM and Covid.

— why are our CV numbers so much worse than the rest of the westernized world?
— why are our homicide rates worse than the rest of the westernized world?

My response on the homicide rate would be that if all people had the same educational and job opportunities as we have had, the crime rate drops naturally.

What I sense here is some thinking that Democrats like keeping these areas the way they are because it gives them a built in voting block. On the surface, that seems ridiculous, but on the flip side why people in those areas continue to vote for the same aldermen, etc that seem to overall do little to improve their situation,I cannot understand.

I don’t know how to fix it, and mayors over decades in Chicago haven’t figured it out either, with both hard or crime and soft on crime approaches both having negative consequences.

[Lonestar]

Yes, for my plan to work all guns on the planet would need to disappear.

After that is accomplished, do we start the elimination of alcohol consumption from the planet? MADD reports a person is injured in a drunk driving crash every 2 minutes, and someone is killed every 51 minutes. How does that compare to firearm injuries/deaths?

Assuming MADD's stats are correct, seems like someone should start thinking about getting some "sensible alcohol safety" laws in effect.

[Cortopassi]

Y'all so touchy about your guns....

FYI I am a gun owner.

All this is hypothetical.

[Tortoise]

Regarding the idea that the high homicide rate in American black communities may be largely due to the availability of guns, it would be instructive for us to look at Africa (where most of the residents are black).

According to this site, African countries have some of the highest homicide rates in the world. Yet 42% of the homicides in Africa are committed with “sharp objects”, 30% “others”, and only 28% with guns.

Interesting, no?

[Libertarian666]

Regarding the idea that the high homicide rate in American black communities may be largely due to the availability of guns, it would be instructive for us to look at Africa (where most of the residents are black).

According to this site, African countries have some of the highest homicide rates in the world. Yet 42% of the homicides in Africa are committed with “sharp objects”, 30% “others”, and only 28% with guns.

Interesting, no?

I'm sure you know that such analysis is RACIST!!! Please report immediately to your anti-racism training center!

[Tortoise]

I'm sure you know that such analysis is RACIST!!! Please report immediately to your anti-racism training center!

I already attended college. I guess it didn't take.

[jhogue]

While I liked my M1911 Colt Combat Commander (.45 ACP) back when I was on active duty, I have recently moved onto a Walther CCP (.380 ACP). Lighter weight, Less recoil, tighter shot group, smaller size for better concealed carry. Last time I was at my local gun shop/ range I was particularly struck by how popular handguns have become with women.

BTW, sales of guns and ammo have skyrocketed in ex-urban Minneapolis following the George Floyd riots; the shelves of gun dealers stay mostly empty. The middle classes are voting with their feet when it comes to housing and voting with their pocketbooks when it comes to firearms. In just a few months our idiot mayor and governor have managed to do what decades of proselytizing by the NRA failed to do.

[Libertarian666]

I'm sure you know that such analysis is RACIST!!! Please report immediately to your anti-racism training center!

I already attended college. I guess it didn't take.

I don't remember college being a left wing indoctrination center in the late 70s like it is now. But then again, I don't remember too much from those years, period.

Well, you know what they say about the 60s: if you can remember it, you weren't there.

[Cortopassi]

No one has tried to directly address:

— why aren't we able to get our Covid numbers under control like most of the westernized world?
— why are our homicide rates worse than the rest of the westernized world?

As the richest country in the world, why are we having such difficulty with these issues? And so many others?

[stuper1]

Here is a thought on why our homicide rate is higher than the rest of the westernized world:

Have you ever heard the phrase "diversity is our strength"? Do you ever wonder if that is true or if the powers that be just want us to believe that it is true? I suspect that most of the "westernized world" is much more homogeneous than the USA. Maybe when a bunch of cultural groups try to live together permanently in one place it's not such a surprise that conflicts happen.

Look up a map of homicides by country. The USA was ranked #55 as of 2017. Most of the worst countries were in Latin America and Africa. Guess where most of our non-westernized people came from? Then factor in the extra conflict created by mixing the Latins, Africans, and Caucasians, along with smaller amounts of other groups.

[Cortopassi]

Here is a thought on why our homicide rate is higher than the rest of the westernized world:

Have you ever heard the phrase "diversity is our strength"? Do you ever wonder if that is true or if the powers that be just want us to believe that it is true? I suspect that most of the "westernized world" is much more homogeneous than the USA. Maybe when a bunch of cultural groups try to live together permanently in one place it's not such a surprise that conflicts happen.

Look up a map of homicides by country. The USA was ranked #55 as of 2017. Most of the worst countries were in Latin America and Africa. Guess where most of our non-westernized people came from? Then factor in the extra conflict created by mixing the Latins, Africans, and Caucasians, along with smaller amounts of other groups.

I think it is something else. Most killings in Chicago are black on black gang crime. There's no diversity there except what gang you are in (as I understand it).

So when you hear the term Black Lives Matter and think about it in that light, I absolutely see the issue. If, for example, that level of killing was happening white on white in my suburb of Chicago, you'd damn well better believe there would be some major ongoing outcry to fix whatever is causing it.

Yet in these black communities, except for the occasional outcry when a very young person is shot, most of the rest of the city just shrugs, shakes their head, and goes on with life.

[shekels]

Here is a thought on why our homicide rate is higher than the rest of the westernized world:

Have you ever heard the phrase "diversity is our strength"? Do you ever wonder if that is true or if the powers that be just want us to believe that it is true? I suspect that most of the "westernized world" is much more homogeneous than the USA. Maybe when a bunch of cultural groups try to live together permanently in one place it's not such a surprise that conflicts happen.

Look up a map of homicides by country. The USA was ranked #55 as of 2017. Most of the worst countries were in Latin America and Africa. Guess where most of our non-westernized people came from? Then factor in the extra conflict created by mixing the Latins, Africans, and Caucasians, along with smaller amounts of other groups.

I think it is something else. Most killings in Chicago are black on black gang crime. There's no diversity there except what gang you are in (as I understand it).

So when you hear the term Black Lives Matter and think about it in that light, I absolutely see the issue. If, for example, that level of killing was happening white on white in my suburb of Chicago, you'd damn well better believe there would be some major ongoing outcry to fix whatever is causing it.

Yet in these black communities, except for the occasional outcry when a very young person is shot, most of the rest of the city just shrugs, shakes their head, and goes on with life.

So who is and has been running these area's with Black on Black crime?
Let me guess Trump.

[stuper1]

The additional homicide rate above what you see in other westernized countries is due to a combination of things: black on black, hispanic on hispanic, and black/hispanic on white.

Somebody will say well what about say white on black homicide? Blacks kill about twice as many whites per year as whites kill blacks. Since blacks make up 13% of the population, this means on a per capitas basis that black on white homicide is something like 8 times the amount of white on black homicide. Think about that the next time that the mass media shows white hooded KKK people as a menace to black people. The actual statistics show that white people have much more to fear from black people than vice versa.

[Cortopassi]

Here is a thought on why our homicide rate is higher than the rest of the westernized world:

Have you ever heard the phrase "diversity is our strength"? Do you ever wonder if that is true or if the powers that be just want us to believe that it is true? I suspect that most of the "westernized world" is much more homogeneous than the USA. Maybe when a bunch of cultural groups try to live together permanently in one place it's not such a surprise that conflicts happen.

Look up a map of homicides by country. The USA was ranked #55 as of 2017. Most of the worst countries were in Latin America and Africa. Guess where most of our non-westernized people came from? Then factor in the extra conflict created by mixing the Latins, Africans, and Caucasians, along with smaller amounts of other groups.

I think it is something else. Most killings in Chicago are black on black gang crime. There's no diversity there except what gang you are in (as I understand it).

So when you hear the term Black Lives Matter and think about it in that light, I absolutely see the issue. If, for example, that level of killing was happening white on white in my suburb of Chicago, you'd damn well better believe there would be some major ongoing outcry to fix whatever is causing it.

Yet in these black communities, except for the occasional outcry when a very young person is shot, most of the rest of the city just shrugs, shakes their head, and goes on with life.

So who is and has been running these area's with Black on Black crime?
Let me guess Trump.

No, it's not Trump. But we've touched on a few things. Like teenage pregnancy, and single mother households.

But...here's where no one has a good answer...why? If someone were to use the words "systemic racism" you'll get eye rolls from a lot of people on this board. But if not that, what? They are in areas with bad economies, bad schools, and poor prospects and the cycle repeats over and over.

So why is that? It's not because they aren't capable. It's not because they wouldn't want to get a good education and rise up out of this, right?

What breaks the cycle? I suspect a Republican rep, alderman or mayor is not necessarily going to be enough.

[Tortoise]

Is “systemic racism” also the problem with African countries’ high homicide rates? In many of those countries, almost all of the citizens are black and don’t have the history of slavery that American blacks do.

Your question about why the U.S. homicide rate is so much higher than that of other rich Western nations has been answered, cortopassi. It’s because the U.S. has many more black and Hispanic citizens than other rich Western nations. Period. That’s really the long and the short of it. Sad and unfortunate, but true.

Whether you choose to accept that truth or not is up to you.

[pp4me]

Here is a thought on why our homicide rate is higher than the rest of the westernized world:

Have you ever heard the phrase "diversity is our strength"? Do you ever wonder if that is true or if the powers that be just want us to believe that it is true? I suspect that most of the "westernized world" is much more homogeneous than the USA. Maybe when a bunch of cultural groups try to live together permanently in one place it's not such a surprise that conflicts happen.

Look up a map of homicides by country. The USA was ranked #55 as of 2017. Most of the worst countries were in Latin America and Africa. Guess where most of our non-westernized people came from? Then factor in the extra conflict created by mixing the Latins, Africans, and Caucasians, along with smaller amounts of other groups.

I think it is something else. Most killings in Chicago are black on black gang crime. There's no diversity there except what gang you are in (as I understand it).

So when you hear the term Black Lives Matter and think about it in that light, I absolutely see the issue. If, for example, that level of killing was happening white on white in my suburb of Chicago, you'd damn well better believe there would be some major ongoing outcry to fix whatever is causing it.

Yet in these black communities, except for the occasional outcry when a very young person is shot, most of the rest of the city just shrugs, shakes their head, and goes on with life.

So who is and has been running these area's with Black on Black crime?
Let me guess Trump.

No, it's not Trump. But we've touched on a few things. Like teenage pregnancy, and single mother households.

But...here's where no one has a good answer...why? If someone were to use the words "systemic racism" you'll get eye rolls from a lot of people on this board. But if not that, what? They are in areas with bad economies, bad schools, and poor prospects and the cycle repeats over and over.

So why is that? It's not because they aren't capable. It's not because they wouldn't want to get a good education and rise up out of this, right?

What breaks the cycle? I suspect a Republican rep, alderman or mayor is not necessarily going to be enough.

There are actually plenty of black people doing well in America. Why don't we ask them how they did it?

[stuper1]

Look up the book by Jared Taylor called "Paved with Good Intentions: the failure of race relations in contemporary America". He has a good discussion of the problems. The problem is basically big government and other forces breaking up families and creating welfare dependency. Government can't solve the problem. Government is the problem.

[Tortoise]

Look up the book by Jared Taylor called "Paved with Good Intentions: the failure of race relations in contemporary America". He has a good discussion of the problems. The problem is basically big government and other forces breaking up families and creating welfare dependency. Government can't solve the problem. Government is the problem.

Is the government doing the same thing in African countries?