Carnivore Diet Experiment

[doodle]

Actually, I find it interesting that you think parents should take responsibility...yet say nothing about the food companies and how they shouldn't engineer foods that are intentionally addictive and terrible for the health of the species.

[doodle]

I'm all for personal responsibility but you have to recognize that everyone shares in that. You can't dangle prostitutes and drugs and fast food restaurants, and video games and peer pressure in front of a 16 year old kid who comes from a broken home and then be surprised when he falls into bad habits. Society in addition to parents (because not every kid is blessed with them) also has a responsibility to shield people from harm and help encourage good choices. You realize that sometimes what is most profitable for an individual is actually detrimental to society right? We are an over medicated society because pharmaceutical companies incentive doctors to push drugs onto patients. The personal profit motive incentivizes negative outcomes. No one makes billions selling brocolli and an evening walk. Do you think it's realistic for the solution to this problem being patients pushing back against their doctors? Seriously, Tom. I get the idea but it's just not realistic. I wish it would happen. I think we have a serious lack of personal responsibility in this country. Ahemmmm...including our president.

I think it's a two pronged approach of personal responsibility, incentivizing and increasing ease of access to making good choices, and making negative choices more difficult or disincentivized. For example, vending machines at school. Why are they full of soda and candy? Are we really providing kids with an environment here that will encourage them to make good dietary decisions when they are hungry when this is the option we give them? It's setting things up for failure.

So

[Tortoise]

Would you be willing to accept that in any situation where the behavior of one individual impacts the life of another regulation could be justifiable?

This is a good question. The way I see it, there are basically two ways to approach situations where one person's actions could potentially affect another person:

1. Regulate - Restrict the person's freedom in such a way that they (hopefully) will be less likely to violate certain rights of the other person.

2. Enforce violations of rights - Do not restrict the person's freedom, but if he violates any rights of the other person, prosecute him in court to seek justice.

#1 (regulate) is sort of a one-size-fits-all approach in which everyone may be forced to change their behavior in a certain way, even if it is completely irrelevant to many of them from a rights-violation perspective. By contrast, #2 (enforce violations of rights) effectively tailors the situation to each individual and doesn't assume that people are fungible.

[doodle]

Would you be willing to accept that in any situation where the behavior of one individual impacts the life of another regulation could be justifiable?

This is a good question. The way I see it, there are basically two ways to approach situations where one person's actions could potentially affect another person:

1. Regulate - Restrict the person's freedom in such a way that they (hopefully) will be less likely to violate certain rights of the other person.

2. Enforce violations of rights - Do not restrict the person's freedom, but if he violates any rights of the other person, prosecute him in court to seek justice.

#1 (regulate) is sort of a one-size-fits-all approach in which everyone may be forced to change their behavior in a certain way, even if it is completely irrelevant to many of them from a rights-violation perspective. By contrast, #2 (enforce violations of rights) effectively tailors the situation to each individual and doesn't assume that people are fungible.

Ok, I'd be for number 2 if it wasn't so complicated. We know for example that city air pollution from transportation aggravates respiratory ailments especially in young children with developing lungs. Should a parent whose child has severe asthma because they live next to a highway sue every driver in the city? Go after the car manufacturers? Do you think that is really realistic?

[WiseOne]

Favorite keto nibble foods are what you need, Cortopassi!! There are plenty of options but you do have to think outside the box a bit.

The ALL TIME NUMBER ONE FAVORITE: Keto Fudge Bites from Trader Joe's. Damn they are delicious and addicting. If you can't find it, try making your own version out of coconut cream, cocoa powder, coconut flour, peanut butter, and erythritol/monkfruit sweetener.

Also from Trader Joe's, smokehouse or Thai chili flavored almonds. Plain almonds not so bad either.

Parmesan crackers. Stew Leonard's has a nice mix of these with nuts, but you can also melt parmesan with a little butter in a pan, let it cool, and voila.

Cheese. Any kind. Those flavored pub cheeses are great when you use olives, almonds, or veggies to dip it up with.

Olives. Don't get the ones that come in jars, you want the deli-counter variety that look like real food.

This is the one that got me through the initial craving phase: bacon and cream cheese sandwiches. Seriously. Take two pieces of bacon and put a slice of cream cheese in between. Yum. Cook a whole package of bacon at a time so you always have some in the fridge.

Make yogurt out of half and half. I use my sous vide stick. Add a few berries, fresh or frozen. I don't typically add sweetener but you can if you like. Ground up chia seeds make a nice addition too.

Eskimo ice cream: frozen berries with a bit of cream poured on top. There are also keto ice creams - "Rebel" and "Enlightened" brands are good.

Hardboiled eggs.

Rolled up salami, or one of those fancy whole Italian sausages sliced up.

Enjoy your next trip through the land of keto!

[Kriegsspiel]

I feel like our political extremism has filtered into our national dietary fads. All meat! No meat! Only fruit! Nothing cooked! Is our entire nation insane?

Hey man, people (well, bodybuilders and athletes, mostly) have been doing extreme diets for a real long time. Vince Gironda was popularizing his steak and eggs diet back in the 50s. Before that there was the Scandinavian dude who was hanging out with the Eskimos and eating seals for a year. Not to mention... the Eskimos themselves

[Kriegsspiel]

In this latest attempt my snack has been sugar-free jello. Works pretty well and almost no calories. My previous snacks have always been spoons of peanut butter. sure not many carbs but a hell of a lot of calories!

Sugar-free isn't all that great. It still makes you crave sugar, still makes you stay hungry. It's not that much better than sugar, I understand.

I listened to the Carnivore dude (Shawn Baker) on the Rogan podcast, and he brought up a chick who went from morbidly obese to a very attractive figure, pretty much just by eating hamburgers. I found her site, and she said she was doing mostly keto at the start, and eating a shit ton of jello (my words). Then after she lost a hundred pounds she went pretty much only bacon and hamburgers. I think she said she stopped eating the jello then.

But hey, unless the jello is "making" you eat other stuff, it's fine.

[l82start]

I have tried multiple times but I have the hardest time on low carb and carnivore. I have trouble making it a few days..the longest I have made it is 2 weeks. I know there is a transition period etc but how do I continue to fight thru something that makes me feel like crap? At what point do I say that this is just not the way for me?

I read varying opinions on whether there is little difference between humans and we are all built to eat the same things or if it really varies from person to person and one person will thrive on low carb while another will do better with high carb/low fat.

For what it is worth (and I dont know what they are worth) I used my DNA from 23 and Me and sent it to two DNA nutrition analysis companies. Both came back and said with my DNA I should eat high carb, moderate protein and low fat. The opposite of the low carb I have tried to eat. But there are plenty of experts who say that DNA diets are hooey.

you may find that true ketogenic is easier than low carb, it could be due to dna or just your personal metabolism, but if you feel crappy and crave carbs you probably are not burning ketones, most of the best effects come with ketosis, and not everybody enters or stays in ketosis at the same level of carb intake, on my first run at this kind of diet i shot for under 6 grams per day, if you read the ingredients, something as small as two fast food ketchup packs can have that much... keto strips can help confirm ketosis for you.... and also stay away from peanuts .... not ketogenic . stick to true nuts..

[Mark Leavy]

In this latest attempt my snack has been sugar-free jello. Works pretty well and almost no calories. My previous snacks have always been spoons of peanut butter. sure not many carbs but a hell of a lot of calories!

Sugar-free isn't all that great. It still makes you crave sugar, still makes you stay hungry. It's not that much better than sugar, I understand.

I listened to the Carnivore dude (Shawn Baker) on the Rogan podcast, and he brought up a chick who went from morbidly obese to a very attractive figure, pretty much just by eating hamburgers. I found her site, and she said she was doing mostly keto at the start, and eating a shit ton of jello (my words). Then after she lost a hundred pounds she went pretty much only bacon and hamburgers. I think she said she stopped eating the jello then.

But hey, unless the jello is "making" you eat other stuff, it's fine.

Unflavored gelatin is pure collagen. Great stuff. If I can't find hydrolyzed collagen wherever I am at, I'll pick up some unflavored jello at the grocery store. Then I'll either just drink a cup of it hot, or If I have time and access to fresh pineapple, I'll use the bromelain to hydrolyze the gelatin ahead of time.

I'm pretty much back on steak and eggs and collagen now. It's really hard to beat.

[doodle]

Correct me if I'm wrong but a ketogenic diet requires around 80% of calories to come from fat...so most meat doesn't even come close to qualifying as that....too much protein. I guess one could have a stick of butter and a steak.

The thing is, one can find people losing weight and feeling better on the strangest diets...only potatoes, or just rice and jam. It seems like when one either eats unprocessed carbs and no fat or fat and no carbs the body generally loses weight. It's when the two are mixed (which is most delicious foods) the problem begins.

[l82start]

Correct me if I'm wrong but a ketogenic diet requires around 80% of calories to come from fat...so most meat doesn't even come close to qualifying as that....too much protein. I guess one could have a stick of butter and a steak.

The thing is, one can find people losing weight and feeling better on the strangest diets...only potatoes, or just rice and jam. It seems like when one either eats unprocessed carbs and no fat or fat and no carbs the body generally loses weight. It's when the two are mixed (which is most delicious foods) the problem begins.

keto is fat + protein (not sure what the exact % is if there is one) but i have noticed the same thing about carbs and fat, they seem to be better on their own. if you do mix the two staying away from grains, starches, and sugar gives better results..

[Kriegsspiel]

The ketogenic ratio is like 85% fat 15% protein/carbs, but that only matters in epileptic applications.

[doodle]

The ketogenic ratio is like 85% fat 15% protein/carbs, but that only matters in epileptic applications.

Yes, from what I've read it's hugely skewed towards fat. Most keto practitioners do not get enough of their calories from fat. Too much protein is the problem most have. Literally, one needs to eat a stick of butter. I'd give it a go, although I know I couldn't do it long term so I don't bother. One concern i have is getting good fat. I'd be concerned with the quality of fat from most animals as most animals store toxins in fat and I worry about the quality of meat accessible in this country. Would have to spend some time procuring high quality fat from specially raised animals.

Correct me if I'm wrong but a ketogenic diet requires around 80% of calories to come from fat...so most meat doesn't even come close to qualifying as that....too much protein. I guess one could have a stick of butter and a steak.

The thing is, one can find people losing weight and feeling better on the strangest diets...only potatoes, or just rice and jam. It seems like when one either eats unprocessed carbs and no fat or fat and no carbs the body generally loses weight. It's when the two are mixed (which is most delicious foods) the problem begins.

keto is fat + protein (not sure what the exact % is if there is one) but i have noticed the same thing about carbs and fat, they seem to be better on their own. if you do mix the two staying away from grains, starches, and sugar gives better results..

Yes, the mixture of fats and carbs seems to be the problem. I've seen studies reversing diabetes on diets of white rice and fruit but no fat. Similarly diets high in starch seem to have weight loss effects as long as free from oils and fats....something like less than 10% percent of calories from fat...and about 10% percent from protein. ..so almost the inverse of keto diet.

[Kriegsspiel]

The ketogenic ratio is like 85% fat 15% protein/carbs, but that only matters in epileptic applications.

Yes, from what I've read it's hugely skewed towards fat. Most keto practitioners do not get enough of their calories from fat. Too much protein is the problem most have.

Not at all; getting "enough" calories from fat is nonsensical from a bodyfat-loss standpoint, it only matters for epileptics. Eating fat will help you test positive for ketones on ketone strips, but it's not necessary for losing bodyfat. Too much protein is generally not a problem when you're trying to lose fat, the opposite is true. It's satiating, and it preserves muscle.

[Cortopassi]

Favorite keto nibble foods are what you need, Cortopassi!! There are plenty of options but you do have to think outside the box a bit.

The ALL TIME NUMBER ONE FAVORITE: Keto Fudge Bites from Trader Joe's. Damn they are delicious and addicting. If you can't find it, try making your own version out of coconut cream, cocoa powder, coconut flour, peanut butter, and erythritol/monkfruit sweetener.

Also from Trader Joe's, smokehouse or Thai chili flavored almonds. Plain almonds not so bad either.

Parmesan crackers. Stew Leonard's has a nice mix of these with nuts, but you can also melt parmesan with a little butter in a pan, let it cool, and voila.

Cheese. Any kind. Those flavored pub cheeses are great when you use olives, almonds, or veggies to dip it up with.

Olives. Don't get the ones that come in jars, you want the deli-counter variety that look like real food.

This is the one that got me through the initial craving phase: bacon and cream cheese sandwiches. Seriously. Take two pieces of bacon and put a slice of cream cheese in between. Yum. Cook a whole package of bacon at a time so you always have some in the fridge.

Make yogurt out of half and half. I use my sous vide stick. Add a few berries, fresh or frozen. I don't typically add sweetener but you can if you like. Ground up chia seeds make a nice addition too.

Eskimo ice cream: frozen berries with a bit of cream poured on top. There are also keto ice creams - "Rebel" and "Enlightened" brands are good.

Hardboiled eggs.

Rolled up salami, or one of those fancy whole Italian sausages sliced up.

Enjoy your next trip through the land of keto!

WiseOne,

Everything you state I have tried in some form or fashion!

But that's the main issue that I run into. I will at times start getting cravings, and I convince myself, oh, it doesn't have many carbs, yeah! And then I eat who knows, 300-1000 calories of something in a sitting!

It's not just lo-carb, it's also, unfortunately, total number of calories, at least for me. Everything you listed is calorie dense.

Sugar free Jello, yeah, I know the Aspartame or whatever is not ideal, but I can live with that. Like last night, after marching band, I had a 1/2 cup of that for 5 calories, vs. a spoonful of peanut butter for 200 calories, and it was good enough.

[WiseOne]

Butter, Salami

Anti-carb or not, please explain how an MD thinks eating cured, processed meats is healthy on any level. Tasty, yes. Healthy, I beg to differ.

Grassfed butter is healthy in my book. But, this was meant as a pile of suggestions for keto snacks for people who are still getting over carb/sugar-induced cravings. Salami and bacon may have their negatives, but they are definitely an improvement over sugar!

I think the key is to eat a lot of fat in those first few months when your body is adjusting to the changeover. This is difficult because you have to quickly reverse the effects of lifelong indoctrination to the contray.

I had an interesting experience in the past few weeks when I was spending a lot of time at my mother's home, and had to do a lot of compromising on diet. I thought I limited carbs pretty well, but when I returned to my real life, I saw that my waist had ballooned an inch or two. And, I found myself needing frequent snacks, just like I used to before I went on keto. Now that I'm back home and eating the way I want to, the snack cravings are gone.

[WiseOne]

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to quote Bacon/Salami. I see you picked that up. Okay, so they're better than sugar. But why even go there when there are unprocessed foods that are much better?

Well, two answers really...

First, the cravings phase only lasts a few months. Whatever gets you through it is what you should do.

Second...has bacon ever truly killed anybody? You're probably looking at reported associations in correlative studies that are riddled with confounds. You know, the kind that takes a large group of people, asks them to recall stuff about their diet, takes their error-prone reports, does some statistical mumbo jumbo, and voila, the people who ate a lot of bacon had more of Health Condition X. Generally, there are a lot of differences between that subgroup and the rest of the study population (e.g. they are more likely to smoke, eat a lot of sugar, drink a lot etc) that are completely ignored. Then the study gets reported in the news as "Bacon increases your risk of Health Condition X!!!" and "To avoid Health Condition X, stop eating bacon!". Of course, both statements are absolutely false unless supported with a clinical trial.

I personally need much better evidence before I give up the food of the gods, i.e. bacon.

[vnatale]

I feel like our political extremism has filtered into our national dietary fads. All meat! No meat! Only fruit! Nothing cooked! Is our entire nation insane?

Hey man, people (well, bodybuilders and athletes, mostly) have been doing extreme diets for a real long time. Vince Gironda was popularizing his steak and eggs diet back in the 50s. Before that there was the Scandinavian dude who was hanging out with the Eskimos and eating seals for a year. Not to mention... the Eskimos themselves

The famed Jack LaLanne!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_LaLanne

Diet
LaLanne blamed overly processed foods for many health problems. For most of his life, Jack was mostly vegetarian while including fish in his evening meal.[21] In his later years, he appeared to advocate a mostly meatless diet that included fish,[22][23] and took vitamin supplements.[24][25][26]

He ate two meals a day and avoided snacks. His breakfast, after working out for two hours, consisted of hard-boiled egg whites, a cup of broth, oatmeal with soy milk, and seasonal fruit. For dinner, he and his wife typically ate raw vegetables, egg whites, and fish. He did not drink coffee.[4]

Feats (in part)

974 (age 60) – For the second time, he swam from Alcatraz Island to Fisherman's Wharf. Again, he was handcuffed, but this time he was also shackled and towed a 1,000 lb (450 kg; 71 st) boat, according to his obituary in Los Angeles Times in 2011 and his website.[36] However, according to an account of this event published the day after it occurred in the Los Angeles Times, written by Philip Hager, a Times staff writer, LaLanne was neither handcuffed nor shackled if each of those terms has the conventional meaning of "tightly binding the wrists or ankles together with a pair of metal fasteners". Hager says that LaLanne "had his hands and feet bound with cords that allowed minimal freedom". But "minimal" clearly did not mean "no" freedom, since elsewhere in the article Hager describes LaLanne's method of propulsion through the water as "half-breast-stroke, half-dog paddle" which is how you swim with your hands tied.[citation needed]
1975 (age 61) – Repeating his performance of 21 years earlier, he again swam the entire length of the Golden Gate Bridge, underwater and handcuffed, but this time he was shackled and towed a 1,000 lb (450 kg; 71 st) boat.[citation needed]
1976 (age 62) – To commemorate the "Spirit of '76", United States Bicentennial, he swam one mile (1.6 km) in Long Beach Harbor. He was handcuffed and shackled, and he towed 13 boats (representing the 13 original colonies) containing 76 people.[37]
1979 (age 65) – towed 65 boats in Lake Ashinoko, near Tokyo, Japan. He was handcuffed and shackled, and the boats were filled with 6,500 lb (2,950 kg; 460 st) of Louisiana Pacific wood pulp.[38]
1980 (age 66) – towed 10 boats in North Miami, Florida. The boats carried 77 people, and he towed them for over one mile (1.6 km) in less than one hour.[citation needed]
1984 (age 70) – He towed 70 rowboats, one with several guests, from the Queen's Way Bridge in the Long Beach Harbor to the Queen Mary, 1 mile.[39]


By the way, my personal, unique diet had me at 146.8 this morning (I'm about 5'8").


Vinny

[WiseOne]

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to quote Bacon/Salami. I see you picked that up. Okay, so they're better than sugar. But why even go there when there are unprocessed foods that are much better?

Well, two answers really...

First, the cravings phase only lasts a few months. Whatever gets you through it is what you should do.

Second...has bacon ever truly killed anybody? You're probably looking at reported associations in correlative studies that are riddled with confounds. You know, the kind that takes a large group of people, asks them to recall stuff about their diet, takes their error-prone reports, does some statistical mumbo jumbo, and voila, the people who ate a lot of bacon had more of Health Condition X. Generally, there are a lot of differences between that subgroup and the rest of the study population (e.g. they are more likely to smoke, eat a lot of sugar, drink a lot etc) that are completely ignored. Then the study gets reported in the news as "Bacon increases your risk of Health Condition X!!!" and "To avoid Health Condition X, stop eating bacon!". Of course, both statements are absolutely false unless supported with a clinical trial.

I personally need much better evidence before I give up the food of the gods, i.e. bacon.

Yeah, yeah, everything's better with bacon.

It was my understanding there was a proven higher incidence of colon cancer among those who consumed processed meats.

See that big paragraph above where I talk about correlative studies? That's where the above came from. Meaning it's not worth the paper it was printed on.

A very prominent recent example of correlative studies being completely wrong: hormone replacement therapy for menopausal symptoms. There were numerous correlative studies associating HRT with reduced risk of heart disease across several decades. This looked so convincing that HRT was widely recommended for women as a preventative for heart disease. Then a prospective clinical trial (WHI) was done. Turns out that HRT increased the risk of heart disease - exactly the opposite of what the correlative studies suggested! There was a major unaddressed confound in that women who took HRT were more likely to be health conscious and thus were less likely to smoke among probably other things. Oopsie.

[doodle]

Bacon from what pig? Unless one is sourcing their bacon from free range foraging pigs I'd be very supsect about eating a lot of fat from a factory raised animal as environmental toxins tend to become concentrated as they move up the food chain. Same goes with grass fed vs grain fed beef...different omega 3 vs 6 profiles.

Our evolution from apes, intestinal tract, gut acidity, teeth shape, makes me think from an evolutionary perspective more attuned to omnivorous diet. I think the way that our body is able to adapt to different diets is impressive but I have my doubts whether burning ketones vs glucose is something that was intended as a long term lifetime dietary choice. It seems more like a beneficial adaptation to periods of famine or scarcity of foods during winter.

I also find it fascinating that so many people are willing to conduct scientific experiments with their health. These extreme diets are definitely helping advance the science of nutrition.

[pp4me]

I also find it fascinating that so many people are willing to conduct scientific experiments with their health. These extreme diets are definitely helping advance the science of nutrition.

If you have a condition for which the medical profession has no answers then you don't have much choice but to experiment. This seems to be the case with a lot of people who adopt the carnivore diet. Good examples are Jordan Peterson and his daughter, both of whom are dealing with auto-immune disorders.

Also, I find it impossible to get any definitive information about nutrition. I was just researching what foods are considered inflammatory and anti-inflammatory because I have arthritis and in doing so I found the same foods on both lists. Example: Dairy. One article said it was inflammatory and another said it had anti-inflammatory properties.

So experimenting on yourself seems to be the only thing you can do.

[doodle]

The ketogenic ratio is like 85% fat 15% protein/carbs, but that only matters in epileptic applications.

Yes, from what I've read it's hugely skewed towards fat. Most keto practitioners do not get enough of their calories from fat. Too much protein is the problem most have.

Not at all; getting "enough" calories from fat is nonsensical from a bodyfat-loss standpoint, it only matters for epileptics. Eating fat will help you test positive for ketones on ketone strips, but it's not necessary for losing bodyfat. Too much protein is generally not a problem when you're trying to lose fat, the opposite is true. It's satiating, and it preserves muscle.

Maybe were talking about different things. I was referring to people on keto and how oftentimes they eat too much protein which the body then converts to glucose which doesn't allow body to shift over to ketones as fuel source.

[doodle]

I also find it fascinating that so many people are willing to conduct scientific experiments with their health. These extreme diets are definitely helping advance the science of nutrition.

If you have a condition for which the medical profession has no answers then you don't have much choice but to experiment. This seems to be the case with a lot of people who adopt the carnivore diet. Good examples are Jordan Peterson and his daughter, both of whom are dealing with auto-immune disorders.

Also, I find it impossible to get any definitive information about nutrition. I was just researching what foods are considered inflammatory and anti-inflammatory because I have arthritis and in doing so I found the same foods on both lists. Example: Dairy. One article said it was inflammatory and another said it had anti-inflammatory properties.

So experimenting on yourself seems to be the only thing you can do.

True. And there does seem to be quite a bit of variability across genome. I have no issues with dairy because of germanic heritage but it makes most asians violently I'll from lactose intolerance. Someday, I'm sure they will crack the link between genetics and diet. On a side note it is pretty interesting that the milk of all species of mammals consists of about:

10-20% Protein
50% Fats
25-40% Carbohydrate

This seems to be the magic ratio for growth....which is probably somewhere in the range of the standard american diet...which is why we all keep growing...outwards mostly . After weening off mother's milk most animals switch to either plants or meat only diet.

[dualstow]

. Like an otherwise healthy vegan man who spent two years wheelchair bound in a SNF because of B12 deficiency.

B12 supplements make me break out. Hopefully I’m getting enough from fish.

[Mark Leavy]

B12 supplements make me break out. Hopefully I’m getting enough from fish.

Dude. You're a very cool guy. Don't let whatever ethics you have stand in the way of a long healthy life. If you are against red meat (or whatever) eat eggs and cheese (and fish and chicken and pork...) Don't rely on supplements.

Best of luck.