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Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 6:24 pm
by Libertarian666
glennds wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:26 pm
Maybe the example put forth by African American Senator Tim Scott (R-SC) could be illustrative. He has been mostly quiet on the subject of his personal experiences with race, but recently after the George Floyd killing, he shared on the Senate floor that in his lifetime he has been routinely stopped by police, most of the time for driving a new car in the wrong neighborhood, or something similarly trivial. The frequency of such incidences were as high as seven times in one year.
Even on Capitol Hill he reports having been stopped by police and asked to produce ID, despite wearing his Senate pin on his suit lapel, and having served in the Senate for five years by this time. He asked for a show among his white fellow Senators for anyone who had experienced the same interrogation, and got none.

My (white, South Dakota native) co-worker told me a story about her cousin's black husband. Nicest guy, whom they see at least 3-4 times/year at family gatherings and holidays. She thought he was a non-drinker because he always politely passes on alcohol. Then last Thanksgiving she asked him about it and he told her he only drinks at home because odds are he'll be stopped by a police officer on the drive home and can't even take the chance of having any alcohol on his breath, legal limit or no legal limit.
It's my observation that the vast majority of people in the US (consciously or unconsciously) attribute reflexive stereotypes to blacks, from a distance. These stereotypes include criminality, laziness, substance abuse, lack of intelligence, mostly negative descriptors. I stop short of saying this is happens with malicious intent. Rather, the human brain seeks patterns and will attribute generalizations to groups naturally. Tribalism is part of our evolutionary biology going back to when we were hunter-gatherer cavemen and cavewomen.

I do happen to think the vast majority of white people will override these generalizations as they get to know a given black person personally and conclude for themselves that the generalizations don't apply, at least in this case.
The problem is that it can be a serious handicap for a person to have to perpetually overcome the levy of a negative stereotype right out of the gate, especially if the stereotype causes their disqualification from opportunities before they've had a chance to disqualify themselves (or not) on merit alone. What I describe here as unconscious bias, might be what others would call a form of racism, or racial discrimination.
I happen to think that racism is a very broad and abused term that covers a continuum ranging from obviously overt and kinetic events like torch bearing white supremacist marches, to less obvious more passive forms of bias like Tim Scott's story. IMO, the passive forms are the more pervasive ones, but mostly only visible to those on the receiving end.

As an experiment, a black journalism student took a walk through a very upscale white neighborhood in Houston to see if his presence there would raise any questions. It took about 15 minutes before two of the homeowners called the police to report a suspicious black man in their neighborhood. A cruiser pulled up and questioned him, requiring him to produce ID, and ran a background check on him, before letting him go. These kinds of incidents are remarkably common, but also remarkably invisible to most non-blacks who don't experience them firsthand. I sometimes wonder what long term self-esteem effects it must have on a young black person to be in a constant guilty-until-proven-innocent situation.
So long story short, I happen to believe there are widespread cultural pre-dispositions in our society that are not particularly favorable toward black people and must be overcome on a case by case basis for individual black people to advance. Add to this the long history of cruelty in the South and the open racism of Presidents such as Woodrow Wilson who called black people "an ignorant and inferior race" and pushed for re-segregation, though he admitted that if you look hard enough you can find the occasional "good one".

If you want more specifics, we can talk about heir title and the property dispossession laws currently on the books of many southern states that were uniquely crafted to legally take property away from multi-generation black farming families once random lynching and terror tactics were no longer acceptable after the 60s.

Anyway, you asked an honest "where is the racism" question, and I'm giving you one person's honest answer.
“There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps... then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.” -- Jesse Jackson (https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/5978-t ... this-stage)

The reason people, including other blacks, are suspicious of blacks whom they don't know personally, is that blacks commit violence at a rate far disproportionate to their numbers. They are 13% of the population yet account for 36% of all violent crime, most of it against other blacks but also against whites. See https://whiteprivilegeisntreal.org/blac ... tatistics/.

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:10 pm
by vnatale
Xan wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:58 pm
vnatale wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:53 pm
Xan wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:35 pm Give it another generation and I bet that goes away too, Vinny. And, what do you propose to do about it? Are you going to find a black person and give him your house?
I'm simply responding to what I saw as an assertion that slavery is long gone and that any residual affects of racism are long gone.

I'd say from my example they continue to have affect through today and may well continue beyond another generation.

Vinny
WiseOne said there wasn't anything convincing linking "the current problems" to those long-ago situations. So I guess the question is what are the current problems?
I'm sorry if my personal example has not been clear enough. I personally have had advantages / opportunities (including financial) that my peer black group has not. Therefore it is going to be more of a problem for them, their children, their grand children than for me and my theoretical children and grand children to achieve that I have achieved.

Vinny

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:18 pm
by vnatale
glennds wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:26 pm
WiseOne wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:44 pm
Ad Orientem wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:31 pm
geaux saints wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:54 pm
Libertarian666 wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:33 pm
geaux saints wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:35 pm I voted left; I consider myself to be a pretty garden variety Democrat.
How do you feel about the riots?
I support the protests but oppose the riots.

+1

This country has some serious and unresolved issues. A lot of them revolve around race.
You know, if you asked me this from the outset of the BLM protests I'd have responded the same way: yes we have racism issues that need to be addressed. But when you start picking apart the details, where is the racism exactly? .....

Other than that...where is the racism? Seriously. I would like to know.
Maybe the example put forth by African American Senator Tim Scott (R-SC) could be illustrative. He has been mostly quiet on the subject of his personal experiences with race, but recently after the George Floyd killing, he shared on the Senate floor that in his lifetime he has been routinely stopped by police, most of the time for driving a new car in the wrong neighborhood, or something similarly trivial. The frequency of such incidences were as high as seven times in one year.
Even on Capitol Hill he reports having been stopped by police and asked to produce ID, despite wearing his Senate pin on his suit lapel, and having served in the Senate for five years by this time. He asked for a show among his white fellow Senators for anyone who had experienced the same interrogation, and got none.

My (white, South Dakota native) co-worker told me a story about her cousin's black husband. Nicest guy, whom they see at least 3-4 times/year at family gatherings and holidays. She thought he was a non-drinker because he always politely passes on alcohol. Then last Thanksgiving she asked him about it and he told her he only drinks at home because odds are he'll be stopped by a police officer on the drive home and can't even take the chance of having any alcohol on his breath, legal limit or no legal limit.
It's my observation that the vast majority of people in the US (consciously or unconsciously) attribute reflexive stereotypes to blacks, from a distance. These stereotypes include criminality, laziness, substance abuse, lack of intelligence, mostly negative descriptors. I stop short of saying this is happens with malicious intent. Rather, the human brain seeks patterns and will attribute generalizations to groups naturally. Tribalism is part of our evolutionary biology going back to when we were hunter-gatherer cavemen and cavewomen.

I do happen to think the vast majority of white people will override these generalizations as they get to know a given black person personally and conclude for themselves that the generalizations don't apply, at least in this case.
The problem is that it can be a serious handicap for a person to have to perpetually overcome the levy of a negative stereotype right out of the gate, especially if the stereotype causes their disqualification from opportunities before they've had a chance to disqualify themselves (or not) on merit alone. What I describe here as unconscious bias, might be what others would call a form of racism, or racial discrimination.
I happen to think that racism is a very broad and abused term that covers a continuum ranging from obviously overt and kinetic events like torch bearing white supremacist marches, to less obvious more passive forms of bias like Tim Scott's story. IMO, the passive forms are the more pervasive ones, but mostly only visible to those on the receiving end.

As an experiment, a black journalism student took a walk through a very upscale white neighborhood in Houston to see if his presence there would raise any questions. It took about 15 minutes before two of the homeowners called the police to report a suspicious black man in their neighborhood. A cruiser pulled up and questioned him, requiring him to produce ID, and ran a background check on him, before letting him go. These kinds of incidents are remarkably common, but also remarkably invisible to most non-blacks who don't experience them firsthand. I sometimes wonder what long term self-esteem effects it must have on a young black person to be in a constant guilty-until-proven-innocent situation.
So long story short, I happen to believe there are widespread cultural pre-dispositions in our society that are not particularly favorable toward black people and must be overcome on a case by case basis for individual black people to advance. Add to this the long history of cruelty in the South and the open racism of Presidents such as Woodrow Wilson who called black people "an ignorant and inferior race" and pushed for re-segregation, though he admitted that if you look hard enough you can find the occasional "good one".

If you want more specifics, we can talk about heir title and the property dispossession laws currently on the books of many southern states that were uniquely crafted to legally take property away from multi-generation black farming families once random lynching and terror tactics were no longer acceptable after the 60s.

Anyway, you asked an honest "where is the racism" question, and I'm giving you one person's honest answer.
I assume some of you know who Giancarlo Stanton is, a player for the New York Yankees?

Here is how much he has earned (and will be earning).
Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (58.75 KiB) Viewed 4639 times
I might further assume that you'd think that as an Afro-American getting paid that much money he's got it made, not a care in the world.

In the post game interview the other night, when he was responding to being asked about his decision (along with another Yankee player) to take knee during the National Anthem, you could clearly see the hurt in his face from the indignities he'd experienced as a black man in America, something I have not and never will experience.

Vinny

Vinny

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:20 pm
by vnatale
Mark Leavy wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:39 pm
glennds wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:26 pm As an experiment, a black journalism student took a walk through a very upscale white neighborhood in Houston to see if his presence there would raise any questions. It took about 15 minutes before two of the homeowners called the police to report a suspicious black man in their neighborhood. A cruiser pulled up and questioned him, requiring him to produce ID, and ran a background check on him, before letting him go. These kinds of incidents are remarkably common, but also remarkably invisible to most non-blacks who don't experience them firsthand. I sometimes wonder what long term self-esteem effects it must have on a young black person to be in a constant guilty-until-proven-innocent situation.

...

Anyway, you asked an honest "where is the racism" question, and I'm giving you one person's honest answer.
That all sounds pretty plausible. And expected.

You're fooling yourself if you think there is any homogeneous domain in the world that won't call you out for "not being from around here".

Tea room in Kyoto.
Jazz club in Harlem.
Street corner near the stadium in Baltimore.
Popeye's in Jersey

Pick a random spot and see how it works out for you.

Edit: fixed a spelling error.
You did give this similar response directed to me not that long ago. But how is a black person (a race that is been in America for 400 years) "not being from around her"?

Vinny

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:26 pm
by Xan
vnatale wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:18 pm I assume some of you know who Giancarlo Stanton is, a player for the New York Yankees?

Here is how much he has earned (and will be earning).

Capture.JPG

I might further assume that you'd think that as an Afro-American getting paid that much money he's got it made, not a care in the world.

In the post game interview the other night, when he was responding to being asked about his decision (along with another Yankee player) to take knee during the National Anthem, you could clearly see the hurt in his face from the indignities he'd experienced as a black man in America, something I have not and never will experience.

Vinny

Vinny
Two things:

a) I thought (just based on the name) he was Italian!

b) I thought the pressing concern which caused people to spit on the flag during the national anthem was black people being killed by the police. That having been disproven as a serious problem, have the goalposts now been moved to "feeling hurt"?

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:58 pm
by stuper1
The guy's making $25M a year, and he wants us poor schmucks to feel sorry for him? Does he feel sorry for me that I will never be able to afford a yacht?

At some point, people just have to grow up and decide that they don't care what anyone thinks about them and that they are going to work hard and prove the haters wrong. Lacking that, they will continue to lag behind the people who are willing to work hard and the offspring of those people.

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:25 pm
by glennds
Xan wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:26 pm
b) I thought the pressing concern which caused people to spit on the flag during the national anthem was black people being killed by the police. That having been disproven as a serious problem, have the goalposts now been moved to "feeling hurt"?
I was aware of some athletes taking a knee during the national anthem, Colin Kapernick being one. I did not know any were spitting on the flag. Who were they? I tried Googling it, and the only thing that came up was Roseanne Barr's escapade in 1990.
To what are you referencing?

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:51 am
by Libertarian666
vnatale wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:18 pm
I assume some of you know who Giancarlo Stanton is, a player for the New York Yankees?

Here is how much he has earned (and will be earning).

Capture.JPG

I might further assume that you'd think that as an Afro-American getting paid that much money he's got it made, not a care in the world.

In the post game interview the other night, when he was responding to being asked about his decision (along with another Yankee player) to take knee during the National Anthem, you could clearly see the hurt in his face from the indignities he'd experienced as a black man in America, something I have not and never will experience.

Vinny

Vinny
I would assume that anyone in that circumstance with two unbrainwashed brain cells to rub together would be thanking America for his tremendous good fortune.

But the victim mentality that the Democrats has fostered is so powerful that even a man who gets paid millions of dollars to play a child's game considers himself a victim.

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:53 am
by Libertarian666
Xan wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:26 pm
vnatale wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:18 pm I assume some of you know who Giancarlo Stanton is, a player for the New York Yankees?

Here is how much he has earned (and will be earning).

Capture.JPG

I might further assume that you'd think that as an Afro-American getting paid that much money he's got it made, not a care in the world.

In the post game interview the other night, when he was responding to being asked about his decision (along with another Yankee player) to take knee during the National Anthem, you could clearly see the hurt in his face from the indignities he'd experienced as a black man in America, something I have not and never will experience.

Vinny

Vinny
Two things:

a) I thought (just based on the name) he was Italian!

b) I thought the pressing concern which caused people to spit on the flag during the national anthem was black people being killed by the police. That having been disproven as a serious problem, have the goalposts now been moved to "feeling hurt"?
Of course. No one can ever prove that someone else's feelings aren't hurt, and in fact no one can prevent someone else's feelings from being hurt. So "hurt feelings" is the best possible type of complaint, assuming you don't care about actual injustice.

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:02 am
by Libertarian666
vnatale wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:10 pm
Xan wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:58 pm
vnatale wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:53 pm
Xan wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:35 pm Give it another generation and I bet that goes away too, Vinny. And, what do you propose to do about it? Are you going to find a black person and give him your house?
I'm simply responding to what I saw as an assertion that slavery is long gone and that any residual affects of racism are long gone.

I'd say from my example they continue to have affect through today and may well continue beyond another generation.

Vinny
WiseOne said there wasn't anything convincing linking "the current problems" to those long-ago situations. So I guess the question is what are the current problems?
I'm sorry if my personal example has not been clear enough. I personally have had advantages / opportunities (including financial) that my peer black group has not. Therefore it is going to be more of a problem for them, their children, their grand children than for me and my theoretical children and grand children to achieve that I have achieved.

Vinny
I'm fairly successful in monetary terms and am happily married. I'm probably better off than most people in this country.

Is that because of privilege or advantages that others don't have?

I grew up in a family that had no money, but I had the inestimable advantage of a fiercely protective mother who wouldn't let me be abused by the school system. I also had the advantage of a 160 IQ (which was partly responsible for the school system abuse, of course).

Not everyone has the first of those advantages, and almost no one has the second.

How would we level the playing field so that everyone has the same advantages that I had?

Unless you can answer that question, you aren't serious about leveling the playing field.

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:12 am
by Mark Leavy
vnatale wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:20 pm You did give this similar response directed to me not that long ago. But how is a black person (a race that is been in America for 400 years) "not being from around her"?

Vinny
I'm using "not from around here" in the sense that we/they aren't part of some particular 'members only' club. I'm definitely not saying that there isn't discrimination. I am saying that there is discriminatory bias and suspicion everywhere, in every walk of life, by every race, class and culture. It is the norm of the human condition.

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:24 am
by Xan
glennds wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:25 pm
Xan wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:26 pm
b) I thought the pressing concern which caused people to spit on the flag during the national anthem was black people being killed by the police. That having been disproven as a serious problem, have the goalposts now been moved to "feeling hurt"?
I was aware of some athletes taking a knee during the national anthem, Colin Kapernick being one. I did not know any were spitting on the flag. Who were they? I tried Googling it, and the only thing that came up was Roseanne Barr's escapade in 1990.
To what are you referencing?
Thankfully the physical stadium flag is typically out of reach. I meant that metaphorically.

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:56 am
by glennds
Xan wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 8:24 am
glennds wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:25 pm
Xan wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:26 pm
b) I thought the pressing concern which caused people to spit on the flag during the national anthem was black people being killed by the police. That having been disproven as a serious problem, have the goalposts now been moved to "feeling hurt"?
I was aware of some athletes taking a knee during the national anthem, Colin Kapernick being one. I did not know any were spitting on the flag. Who were they? I tried Googling it, and the only thing that came up was Roseanne Barr's escapade in 1990.
To what are you referencing?
Thankfully the physical stadium flag is typically out of reach. I meant that metaphorically.
Oh okay, got it.

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:55 am
by WiseOne
So let me sum up what I've heard so far.

Vinny noticed that a specific African-American family wasn't economically successful, and asserted without rationale or proof that this is due to the existence of slavery prior to 150 years ago. This is what most of the country is doing, so it's an understandable error. As a scientist though, it takes more than an assertion like that to convince me.

I completely agree that non-black people tend to be afraid of some black people - particularly black men dressed a certain way. However, I think it's completely understandable. That same neighborhood that called the police on an unknown black man wandering down the street has probably been victimized by burglars who, in all likelihood, were black. They also see local news stories with photos of arrested criminals. In other words, the people who called the police weren't thinking that they were at risk because the person in question might have been descended from a slave. They were thinking about the statistical likelihood that a given black person intends to commit a crime. "Casing out" a neighborhood is in fact a well-known precursor to a burglary.

So ok, those examples tell me that some black people may feel uncomfortable venturing into white society. And that you might reasonably call this racism. Probably not too different from how I feel venturing into a heavily Hispanic neighborhood, or a heavily black one like Harlem. Basically what Mark said, except with one big difference: No one in Harlem is ever going to look at me and worry that I might be there in order to commit a crime.

So I keep coming back to the same explanation: it's about the black crime problem, not the legacy of slavery. Since the increase in black crime didn't start until a hundred years after slavery was abolished, I definitely don't buy that as an explanation. You can stick on a label of racism if you like, but that will accomplish nothing since you can't legislate away the power of humans to make inferences & generalizations based on prior experience.

Too bad the black community doesn't realize that controlling their crime problem would be the best way to "defund the police".

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:07 am
by Xan
That makes a lot of sense, WiseOne.

Also, as far as that "experiment" goes: the intent of the experiment was to look suspicious so as to have the police called. Do you think this guy was acting as though he belonged, and was (let's say) walking down to the mailbox from his house? Or was he just wandering around the neighborhood walking up and down streets? Did he walk twice past the same street in short order? Would the neighbors have behaved differently for anybody they don't know walking in front of their house that way?

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:45 am
by vnatale
Libertarian666 wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:02 am
vnatale wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:10 pm
Xan wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:58 pm
vnatale wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:53 pm
Xan wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:35 pm Give it another generation and I bet that goes away too, Vinny. And, what do you propose to do about it? Are you going to find a black person and give him your house?
I'm simply responding to what I saw as an assertion that slavery is long gone and that any residual affects of racism are long gone.

I'd say from my example they continue to have affect through today and may well continue beyond another generation.

Vinny
WiseOne said there wasn't anything convincing linking "the current problems" to those long-ago situations. So I guess the question is what are the current problems?
I'm sorry if my personal example has not been clear enough. I personally have had advantages / opportunities (including financial) that my peer black group has not. Therefore it is going to be more of a problem for them, their children, their grand children than for me and my theoretical children and grand children to achieve that I have achieved.

Vinny
I'm fairly successful in monetary terms and am happily married. I'm probably better off than most people in this country.

Is that because of privilege or advantages that others don't have?

I grew up in a family that had no money, but I had the inestimable advantage of a fiercely protective mother who wouldn't let me be abused by the school system. I also had the advantage of a 160 IQ (which was partly responsible for the school system abuse, of course).

Not everyone has the first of those advantages, and almost no one has the second.

How would we level the playing field so that everyone has the same advantages that I had?

Unless you can answer that question, you aren't serious about leveling the playing field.
Wherever in the above did I say anything about "leveling the playing field"?

Some poor people have personal strengths that I do not have. I could never be compensated in any way for my lack of those strengths.

I think the term "White Supremacy" is not a good one. Until recently, this was, by far, a white country. Therefore, what went along with being white is / was the norm.

It should better be stated as "Black Penalty". It's like being a a race and the average white person is at the starting line and the average black person is somewhat back of that starting line.

Vinny

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:46 am
by vnatale
Mark Leavy wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:12 am
vnatale wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:20 pm You did give this similar response directed to me not that long ago. But how is a black person (a race that is been in America for 400 years) "not being from around her"?

Vinny
I'm using "not from around here" in the sense that we/they aren't part of some particular 'members only' club. I'm definitely not saying that there isn't discrimination. I am saying that there is discriminatory bias and suspicion everywhere, in every walk of life, by every race, class and culture. It is the norm of the human condition.
Yes. I can definitely agree with all of that.

Vinny

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:05 pm
by glennds
Mark Leavy wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:12 am
vnatale wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:20 pm You did give this similar response directed to me not that long ago. But how is a black person (a race that is been in America for 400 years) "not being from around her"?

Vinny
I'm using "not from around here" in the sense that we/they aren't part of some particular 'members only' club. I'm definitely not saying that there isn't discrimination. I am saying that there is discriminatory bias and suspicion everywhere, in every walk of life, by every race, class and culture. It is the norm of the human condition.
Mark, your assertion has not been my experience. I am a visible minority, neither black nor white, but rather from India. Although I have grown up and been educated in the West, partly in the UK and Canada, but mostly in the US. I have been to three of the four example places you listed, the exception being Popeye's in New Jersey (now added to my bucket list though). As you correctly predict, in each setting I was the only visibly different person among the local crowd. However, I am fortunate to report that I was treated well in each place, never the victim of negative discriminatory bias or suspicion, unless I was just too dense to notice.

As a child I grew up in a multicultural city in a district right in between an Italian area and a Jewish area. So most of my friends were either Italian or Jewish, and when we played together, their families took me into their homes, treated me like one of their kids, introduced me to food and treats that I had never seen. When I was a teenager we moved to the SW US and I had a similar experience with Hispanics. In fact, I got invited to Hispanic neighborhood parties and weddings, and my friends' Abuelitas treated me like their own grandson and usually tried to kill me with food. My best friend in high school was black and his immediate family took me into their world in the same way. And there was that time I got stranded due to storms while on a backpacking trip and the Navajo took us in. As a result of my these experiences I can only have a very high opinion of Italians, Jews, Blacks, Native Americans and especially Hispanics.

No doubt, I've probably been shaped by my childhood environment, but even when traveling in other countries, I have always been treated so well, and I find it only takes a few moments to make eye contact, show a little interest, and learn how great other people can be and how costly it can be to buy into negative stereotypes. Maybe I've just been lucky. Maybe I'm privileged for being Indian, because if I were white these minorities might have killed me off in seconds (catch that sarcasm).

Japan is an interesting place. I lived there for six months. Yes, the country is 98% homogeneously Japanese. But as a gaijin foreigner I was never treated in a derogatory way, in fact the Japanese people were absolutely courteous, charming even. At the time my 10 year old daughter was going through a phase where she would refuse to tie her shoelaces. The Japanese fixed that because we could only be on the street for 30 seconds before someone would walk up, smile and point to her shoes expressing concern that she might trip and hurt herself.

I offer this story in support of two points.
First, I have learned there is a immigrant/minority hierarchy. Indians rank fairly high on this ladder being typically associated with doctors, tech workers, academics, and at worst convenience store clerks or taxi drivers. Rarely ever with terrorism, drug trafficking, illegal immigration or violent crime. This tends to make me the beneficiary of positive discrimination whether I have personally earned it or not. Maybe not as fortunate as being white, but a good lottery ticket nonetheless. A black person is at the bottom of this ladder and while some might say, "they" have brought it on themselves due to their own vices, this attitude paints an entire group with one brush invariably resulting in countless unfair casualties. Maybe it makes a difference if you have one or more black friends and you feel they deserve better than drawing a loser lottery ticket that they will have to work to overcome.
If you look deep, maybe you can find a little empathy rooted in gratitude for your own good fortune.

Second, on a self-interest level there are real opportunities to enrich your own life or business if you are willing to not let negative stereotypes obstruct you. In my case, if I had let discrimination get in the way, I would have been much more isolated and left a lot of life experience (and at least one business opportunity) on the table. Yes, you have a point that people often have trepidation over someone who looks unfamiliar, not one of their own. But then it's on you to either reinforce that trepidation, or diffuse it, which I say can be done in minutes, maybe even seconds with 99% of people, the 1% being only the most hateful or backward.
Sorry for the long post, and I hope this is a positive message!

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:09 pm
by Mark Leavy
glennds wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:05 pm
Mark, your assertion has not been my experience. I am a visible minority, neither black nor white, but rather from India. Although I have grown up and been educated in the West, partly in the UK and Canada, but mostly in the US. I have been to three of the four example places you listed, the exception being Popeye's in New Jersey (now added to my bucket list though). As you correctly predict, in each setting I was the only visibly different person among the local crowd. However, I am fortunate to report that I was treated well in each place, never the victim of negative discriminatory bias or suspicion, unless I was just too dense to notice.
Yes, in the US we generally are polite and respectful to anyone offering the same in return. I didn't mean to suggest you would face blatant racism. Just not the same level of acceptance as the locals. And not necessarily based on skin color.

Which castes are you openly accepted into when you are in India? If you are Brahmin, you don't get to say, "Why, they all welcome me. Why do you ask?" Or, "What do you mean? The caste system has long been abolished in India..."

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:42 pm
by Libertarian666
vnatale wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:45 am
Libertarian666 wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:02 am
vnatale wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:10 pm
Xan wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:58 pm
vnatale wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:53 pm
Xan wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:35 pm Give it another generation and I bet that goes away too, Vinny. And, what do you propose to do about it? Are you going to find a black person and give him your house?
I'm simply responding to what I saw as an assertion that slavery is long gone and that any residual affects of racism are long gone.

I'd say from my example they continue to have affect through today and may well continue beyond another generation.

Vinny
WiseOne said there wasn't anything convincing linking "the current problems" to those long-ago situations. So I guess the question is what are the current problems?
I'm sorry if my personal example has not been clear enough. I personally have had advantages / opportunities (including financial) that my peer black group has not. Therefore it is going to be more of a problem for them, their children, their grand children than for me and my theoretical children and grand children to achieve that I have achieved.

Vinny
I'm fairly successful in monetary terms and am happily married. I'm probably better off than most people in this country.

Is that because of privilege or advantages that others don't have?

I grew up in a family that had no money, but I had the inestimable advantage of a fiercely protective mother who wouldn't let me be abused by the school system. I also had the advantage of a 160 IQ (which was partly responsible for the school system abuse, of course).

Not everyone has the first of those advantages, and almost no one has the second.

How would we level the playing field so that everyone has the same advantages that I had?

Unless you can answer that question, you aren't serious about leveling the playing field.
Wherever in the above did I say anything about "leveling the playing field"?

Some poor people have personal strengths that I do not have. I could never be compensated in any way for my lack of those strengths.

I think the term "White Supremacy" is not a good one. Until recently, this was, by far, a white country. Therefore, what went along with being white is / was the norm.

It should better be stated as "Black Penalty". It's like being a a race and the average white person is at the starting line and the average black person is somewhat back of that starting line.

Vinny
Ok, so if you're not proposing or supporting the idea that white people should be forced to do anything to make up for the black penalty, just noting that there is a statistical difference between the two situations, that's fine.

However, many leftists and even people calling themselves moderates are in favor of "reparations" or other forced payments from whites to blacks. I'm completely against that for what I hope are obvious reasons.

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:44 pm
by glennds
Mark Leavy wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:09 pm
glennds wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:05 pm
Mark, your assertion has not been my experience. I am a visible minority, neither black nor white, but rather from India. Although I have grown up and been educated in the West, partly in the UK and Canada, but mostly in the US. I have been to three of the four example places you listed, the exception being Popeye's in New Jersey (now added to my bucket list though). As you correctly predict, in each setting I was the only visibly different person among the local crowd. However, I am fortunate to report that I was treated well in each place, never the victim of negative discriminatory bias or suspicion, unless I was just too dense to notice.
Yes, in the US we generally are polite and respectful to anyone offering the same in return. I didn't mean to suggest you would face blatant racism. Just not the same level of acceptance as the locals. And not necessarily based on skin color.

Which castes are you openly accepted into when you are in India? If you are Brahmin, you don't get to say, "Why, they all welcome me. Why do you ask?" Or, "What do you mean? The caste system has long been abolished in India..."
I'm pretty much exempt from the caste system in India. The caste system is a Hindu construct and I come from a state that has been Catholic for about 500 years, a Portuguese colony at one time. That, plus my status as an expat place me in an exempt category.

The caste system is a complicated story. Very rooted in Indian culture, which itself is very rooted in Hinduistic tradition, even more these days thanks to the brand of populism of the Modi government and the Hindification movement. But caste is also an institution that does an effective job of stifling India and keeping it backward.
Generally speaking in India, the lower you go down the socioeconomic and education ladder, the more caste matters. Which is to say the more ignorant the environment, the more discrimination seems to thrive.

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:47 pm
by Mark Leavy
glennds wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:44 pm
I'm pretty much exempt from the caste system in India. The caste system is a Hindu construct and I come from a state that has been Catholic for about 500 years, a Portuguese colony at one time. That, plus my status as an expat place me in an exempt category.

The caste system is a complicated story. Very rooted in Indian culture, which itself is very rooted in Hinduistic tradition, even more these days thanks to the brand of populism of the Modi government and the Hindification movement. But caste is also an institution that does an effective job of stifling India and keeping it backward.
Generally speaking in India, the lower you go down the socioeconomic and education ladder, the more caste matters. Which is to say the more ignorant the environment, the more discrimination seems to thrive.
Fantastic answer. Thank you. Very much appreciated.
Mark

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:02 pm
by Xan
glennds,

Thanks for telling us about your fascinating background.

Are you Catholic yourself? Do you think that might have given you a leg up with at least the Italians and the Hispanics?

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:01 pm
by glennds
Xan wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:02 pm glennds,

Thanks for telling us about your fascinating background.

Are you Catholic yourself? Do you think that might have given you a leg up with at least the Italians and the Hispanics?
Hi,
Yes I am Catholic. Now that you mention it, yes, being so was a point in common with Italians and Hispanics. Especially Hispanics, because if you go far back enough in my part of India, we were probably indigenous Hindu villagers until the Portuguese showed up with the missionaries who converted everyone, just like what happened with the Spanish in Mexico. Even the country churches and chapels are a lot like what you see in Mexico if you drive through small towns. I haven't been to the Philippines, but I'm betting the same would be the case there.

However, being Catholic didn't ever present as an issue with my Jewish friends. But then I was like 7 years old, so we were just kids going to each other's houses to play and the most exotic part of it might have been limited to unfamiliar food. We weren't old enough to be thinking about things like culture or religion. What I do remember was that the Italian food was crazy good at Peter and Domenic's houses. The Italian moms were beautiful too, and would kiss all of us when we arrived and left, which was a major thrill.

Re: "What is your political orientation" Poll

Posted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:33 pm
by glennds
Mark Leavy wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:47 pm
glennds wrote: Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:44 pm
I'm pretty much exempt from the caste system in India. The caste system is a Hindu construct and I come from a state that has been Catholic for about 500 years, a Portuguese colony at one time. That, plus my status as an expat place me in an exempt category.

The caste system is a complicated story. Very rooted in Indian culture, which itself is very rooted in Hinduistic tradition, even more these days thanks to the brand of populism of the Modi government and the Hindification movement. But caste is also an institution that does an effective job of stifling India and keeping it backward.
Generally speaking in India, the lower you go down the socioeconomic and education ladder, the more caste matters. Which is to say the more ignorant the environment, the more discrimination seems to thrive.
Fantastic answer. Thank you. Very much appreciated.
Mark
Mark, where the caste system is most potent unfortunately, is for the Dalits (untouchables). The other castes are mainly shades of grey differences in a complicated hierarchy that I don't even fully understand. But I know that the Dalits are in a completely separate inferior class by birth, and this inferiority will follow them around in India for life. For the rare one that can overcome obstacles and access higher education or financial success, it helps, but they are still a Dalit and in the company of orthodox hindus or in the villages, it will shackle them with an unfortunate stigma.

When I say I'm exempt, it does not mean in a positive or negative way, just neutral. Most expats will be assumed to be privileged because in order to have emigrated overseas it takes privilege. Except for Dalits that go to places like the Gulf states as contract unskilled workers.

What your earlier comment implied was correct. Technically the caste system was abolished in 1950 after India's independence. But the tradition is deeply embedded in Indian culture so it is alive and well in practice, just less intense in the more sophisticated cities and circles.

So while racial tension is a problem in the US, but India has no business criticizing anyone else because it is one of the most racist countries in the world save for some of the Middle Eastern countries perhaps. Gender discrimination against women too. Skin color is an issue, lighter=better, darker=not so good.
It's a great country in many respects, full of entrepreneurial energy and brilliant talent. But until infrastructure issues and societal issues like these can be resolved, it will be hard for India to truly join the ranks of the first world industrialized countries. If that day comes, it will be a force to be reckoned with.