Gyroscopic Investing

Some interesting information on the incident in Minneapolis. Don't know if it's true or not. Presumably it will all come out at the trial which the media, both liberal and conservative this time, couldn't wait for before setting the world aflame.....

https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2020/0 ... and-words/

The police are not medics or toxicologists, but they sensed that Floyd had a problem far beyond passing fake $20 bills and questioned him. When they got Floyd in the police car to take him for booking, he said “I can’t breathe” and “I want to lay on the ground.”

Chauvin, a more experienced officer, realized Floyd was in trouble. The police acceded to Floyd’s request, removed him from the car, and put him on the ground as requested. The police put him on his stomach because one effect of a fentanyl overdose is nausea and the police did not want Floyd to choke to death on his own vomit.

Floyd was restrained so that he did not flail about using what little oxygen he was getting prior to the arrival on the scene of medics. The police were trying to prolong his life until the medics arrived.

If the cop was genuinely concerned about Floyd's well being, did he remove his knee?

Say a buddy of mine shoots someone through the heart. Fatal shot. But takes one minute to die. I shoot him again in the stomach. I'm free and clear, man! He was going to die anyway!

How long was he on the ground unresponsive? 3 minutes. Did they check his pulse? Yes. And didn't find one. Did they attempt CPR? Even the hands only version? Through the goodness of his heart he pulled him out of the car because they could see he was in trouble but then did not follow up with any other helpful procedures to keep him alive?

Count how long 3 minutes is and imagine that during that entire time someone is without a pulse at your feet. I just did. It is a long time. About the amount of time to pop a bag of microwave popcorn.

Unless that person just killed someone in your family and you don't give a crap if they die, I would hope the police were trained to help someone in that situation. Good luck to the lawyers trying to spin that.

I'm no medical expert, but as far as spin and jujitsu-style criminal defence is concerned... that's some Royce Gracie level shit.

Smith1776 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:23 pm I'm no medical expert, but as far as spin and jujitsu-style criminal defence is concerned... that's some Royce Gracie level shit.

I don't know where the author of that piece got his information. He's not part of the defence team but a columnist who writes for the Unz Review and other publications. Had some position in the Reagan administration too, if memory serves me right.

If there is no evidence for what he is claiming then it will be a hard sell to a jury for sure. If there is, it will still be a hard sell because the media has already set the narrative and an unbiased jury will be nowhere to be found since the story went worldwide. Besides that, the jurors will have to consider the fact that if they find him not guilty the city of Minneapolis is likely to burn again.

Smith1776 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:23 pm I'm no medical expert, but as far as spin and jujitsu-style criminal defence is concerned... that's some Royce Gracie level shit.

LOL

As I was reading it I was thinking of defense team BJJ as well. Clearly some high IQ mind-meld going on tonight.

Cortopassi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:31 pm If the cop was genuinely concerned about Floyd's well being, did he remove his knee?

Say a buddy of mine shoots someone through the heart. Fatal shot. But takes one minute to die. I shoot him again in the stomach. I'm free and clear, man! He was going to die anyway!

How long was he on the ground unresponsive? 3 minutes. Did they check his pulse? Yes. And didn't find one. Did they attempt CPR? Even the hands only version? Through the goodness of his heart he pulled him out of the car because they could see he was in trouble but then did not follow up with any other helpful procedures to keep him alive?

Count how long 3 minutes is and imagine that during that entire time someone is without a pulse at your feet. I just did. It is a long time. About the amount of time to pop a bag of microwave popcorn.

Unless that person just killed someone in your family and you don't give a crap if they die, I would hope the police were trained to help someone in that situation. Good luck to the lawyers trying to spin that.

All good questions.The one answer I have to these questions
Is it against the law
Is anything the Police did against the Law?
I realize humanity plays into this but
Can the Police kneel on someones neck in Minnesota?
What are the guidelines, and did the POLICE Follow them?

shekels wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:12 am

Cortopassi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:31 pm If the cop was genuinely concerned about Floyd's well being, did he remove his knee?

Say a buddy of mine shoots someone through the heart. Fatal shot. But takes one minute to die. I shoot him again in the stomach. I'm free and clear, man! He was going to die anyway!

How long was he on the ground unresponsive? 3 minutes. Did they check his pulse? Yes. And didn't find one. Did they attempt CPR? Even the hands only version? Through the goodness of his heart he pulled him out of the car because they could see he was in trouble but then did not follow up with any other helpful procedures to keep him alive?

Count how long 3 minutes is and imagine that during that entire time someone is without a pulse at your feet. I just did. It is a long time. About the amount of time to pop a bag of microwave popcorn.

Unless that person just killed someone in your family and you don't give a crap if they die, I would hope the police were trained to help someone in that situation. Good luck to the lawyers trying to spin that.

All good questions.The one answer I have to these questions
Is it against the law
Is anything the Police did against the Law?
I realize humanity plays into this but
Can the Police kneel on someones neck in Minnesota?
What are the guidelines, and did the POLICE Follow them?

I'll ask you this question.

We are back in Germany during Nazi Germany times. You are hiding a Jew in your house. The Nazis come to your door and ask you is you are hiding any Jews in your house. You ARE breaking a law. And, if you answer them falsely you are breaking one of the Ten Commandments of not telling the truth.

Do you follow the law and the Ten Commandments and turn over the Jew you had been hiding?

Vinny

vnatale wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:35 pmI'll ask you this question.

We are back in Germany during Nazi Germany times. You are hiding a Jew in your house. The Nazis come to your door and ask you is you are hiding any Jews in your house. You ARE breaking a law. And, if you answer them falsely you are breaking one of the Ten Commandments of not telling the truth.

Do you follow the law and the Ten Commandments and turn over the Jew you had been hiding?

Vinny

I read an interesting approach to this scenario a while back. Implicit in the question "are you hiding any Jews in your house" is the suffix "that we can come and kill". So you reply "no", again with the implicit suffix "that you can come and kill".

I'm not sure how generally such an approach would be appropriate.

shekels wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:12 am
What are the guidelines, and did the POLICE Follow them?

I'm hoping there doesn't need to be a guideline against "kneel on the offender's neck until he's good and dead"

But you are right:

The manual of the Minneapolis Police Department states that neck restraints and chokeholds are basically reserved for when an officer feels caught in a life-or-death situation.

Not that Floyd looked like he was in any sort of position of power to make the officer feel that way.

vnatale wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:35 pm
I'll ask you this question.

We are back in Germany during Nazi Germany times. You are hiding a Jew in your house. The Nazis come to your door and ask you is you are hiding any Jews in your house. You ARE breaking a law. And, if you answer them falsely you are breaking one of the Ten Commandments of not telling the truth.

Do you follow the law and the Ten Commandments and turn over the Jew you had been hiding?

Vinny

The Law has been fulfilled, but not abolished. I am forgiven. I am free to the best of my ability to love my neighbor. When I slip up, I repent and remember I am baptized. And, we are to follow government laws only if they do not conflict with the Triune God; I think your scenario above is an example of a conflict where God trumps the Nazi law.

Mountaineer wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:12 am

vnatale wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:35 pm
I'll ask you this question.

We are back in Germany during Nazi Germany times. You are hiding a Jew in your house. The Nazis come to your door and ask you is you are hiding any Jews in your house. You ARE breaking a law. And, if you answer them falsely you are breaking one of the Ten Commandments of not telling the truth.

Do you follow the law and the Ten Commandments and turn over the Jew you had been hiding?

Vinny

The Law has been fulfilled, but not abolished. I am forgiven. I am free to the best of my ability to love my neighbor. When I slip up, I repent and remember I am baptized. And, we are to follow government laws only if they do not conflict with the Triune God; I think your scenario above is an example of a conflict where God trumps the Nazi law.

You gave what I believe to be the correct answer.

Now I would assume that you would be as aghast as I was when I asked the same question of someone who was going to be a pastor and he stated that he'd turn in the Jew? I told myself if that person lacks the sense to correctly answer this basic question then he has no business becoming a pastor.

Vinny

It's called being holier than thou. Very common among people who aspire to be pastors. Also very common among SJWs.

stuper1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:22 am It's called being holier than thou. Very common among people who aspire to be pastors. Also very common among SJWs.

This guy was a completely nice guy. Everyone loved him. But having reached the age of his late 20s, or early 30s, by him giving an answer like that he revealed that he lacked the proper sense to be a pastor.

Vinny

Cortopassi wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:45 pm

shekels wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:12 am
What are the guidelines, and did the POLICE Follow them?

I'm hoping there doesn't need to be a guideline against "kneel on the offender's neck until he's good and dead"

But you are right:

The manual of the Minneapolis Police Department states that neck restraints and chokeholds are basically reserved for when an officer feels caught in a life-or-death situation.

Not that Floyd looked like he was in any sort of position of power to make the officer feel that way.

Guidelines may have been the wrong word to use in this instance.
What I was leading to was if the Police followed procedure and the procedure ended in harm/death then who is at fault?
The Mayor and or City Council,maybe the State legislator possibly the Governor?
Or maybe just throw the Police under the bus and wash you hands of the matter.

We all know that the police do not have a specific Duty to respond to citizens.

vnatale wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:35 pm

I'll ask you this question.

We are back in Germany during Nazi Germany times. You are hiding a Jew in your house. The Nazis come to your door and ask you is you are hiding any Jews in your house. You ARE breaking a law. And, if you answer them falsely you are breaking one of the Ten Commandments of not telling the truth.

Do you follow the law and the Ten Commandments and turn over the Jew you had been hiding?

Vinny

The difference is Man's Law vs Gods Law.

Man's Law will abolish Free Men of their Life ,Liberty and Freedom with their "Laws"

vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:51 am

stuper1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:22 am It's called being holier than thou. Very common among people who aspire to be pastors. Also very common among SJWs.

This guy was a completely nice guy. Everyone loved him. But having reached the age of his late 20s, or early 30s, by him giving an answer like that he revealed that he lacked the proper sense to be a pastor.

Vinny

I think you're really asking two different questions here, though. One is "what is the RIGHT thing to do in this situation" and the other is "what would YOU do". I think we all agree that the right thing to do is to not turn the person over to the Nazis. But, when the rubber meets the road, would you actually risk losing everything for the sake of this person? Would you risk everything that you have, including your life? Would you risk condemning your own family to torture and death? Then it isn't so easy.

shekels wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:07 am

vnatale wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:35 pm

I'll ask you this question.

We are back in Germany during Nazi Germany times. You are hiding a Jew in your house. The Nazis come to your door and ask you is you are hiding any Jews in your house. You ARE breaking a law. And, if you answer them falsely you are breaking one of the Ten Commandments of not telling the truth.

Do you follow the law and the Ten Commandments and turn over the Jew you had been hiding?

Vinny

The difference is Man's Law vs Gods Law.

Man's Law will abolish Free Men of their Life ,Liberty and Freedom with their "Laws"

Totally agree with you. You'd think an aspiring pastor would be aware of that?

Vinny

Xan wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:37 am

vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:51 am

stuper1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:22 am It's called being holier than thou. Very common among people who aspire to be pastors. Also very common among SJWs.

This guy was a completely nice guy. Everyone loved him. But having reached the age of his late 20s, or early 30s, by him giving an answer like that he revealed that he lacked the proper sense to be a pastor.

Vinny

I think you're really asking two different questions here, though. One is "what is the RIGHT thing to do in this situation" and the other is "what would YOU do". I think we all agree that the right thing to do is to not turn the person over to the Nazis. But, when the rubber meets the road, would you actually risk losing everything for the sake of this person? Would you risk everything that you have, including your life? Would you risk condemning your own family to torture and death? Then it isn't so easy.

You are correct. Two questions. I was asking the idealistic version. Not the practical version.

Vinny

shekels wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:59 am

Cortopassi wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:45 pm

shekels wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:12 am
What are the guidelines, and did the POLICE Follow them?

I'm hoping there doesn't need to be a guideline against "kneel on the offender's neck until he's good and dead"

But you are right:

The manual of the Minneapolis Police Department states that neck restraints and chokeholds are basically reserved for when an officer feels caught in a life-or-death situation.

Not that Floyd looked like he was in any sort of position of power to make the officer feel that way.

Guidelines may have been the wrong word to use in this instance.
What I was leading to was if the Police followed procedure and the procedure ended in harm/death then who is at fault?
The Mayor and or City Council,maybe the State legislator possibly the Governor?
Or maybe just throw the Police under the bus and wash you hands of the matter.

We all know that the police do not have a specific Duty to respond to citizens.

Unless there are other video angles, any subduing of Floyd that might have been needed ended within 30 seconds of being on the ground. That the knee was still there 8 minutes later, shows intent to cause harm, probably because he pissed him off. I would like to believe he just wanted to cause him some pain and be done with it, and really did not intend to kill him, but he had ample time to calm down and give at least some rational thought to what he was doing.

But he actually looked quite calm kneeling there which made it that much more disturbing.

vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:46 am

Xan wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:37 am

vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:51 am

stuper1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:22 am It's called being holier than thou. Very common among people who aspire to be pastors. Also very common among SJWs.

This guy was a completely nice guy. Everyone loved him. But having reached the age of his late 20s, or early 30s, by him giving an answer like that he revealed that he lacked the proper sense to be a pastor.

Vinny

I think you're really asking two different questions here, though. One is "what is the RIGHT thing to do in this situation" and the other is "what would YOU do". I think we all agree that the right thing to do is to not turn the person over to the Nazis. But, when the rubber meets the road, would you actually risk losing everything for the sake of this person? Would you risk everything that you have, including your life? Would you risk condemning your own family to torture and death? Then it isn't so easy.

You are correct. Two questions. I was asking the idealistic version. Not the practical version.

Vinny

To bring this up to our time where the U.S.A. is grappling with systemic racism just like Nazi Germany did, how about this hypothetical: It's the middle of the night and a large, black man is beating on your front door, begging you to let him in because the cops have mistaken him for a cop-killer and will likely kill him when they catch up in a few minutes.

Do you open your door, let him in, hide him, and lie to the police when they show up? If not, aren't you part of the systemic racism problem just like that SS officer back in 1940?

stuper1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:28 pm If not, aren't you part of the systemic racism problem just like that SS officer back in 1940?

There's a presumption here that systemic racism is a thing/issue. Did I miss where that became a given?

stuper1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:28 pm

vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:46 am

Xan wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:37 am

vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:51 am

stuper1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:22 am It's called being holier than thou. Very common among people who aspire to be pastors. Also very common among SJWs.

This guy was a completely nice guy. Everyone loved him. But having reached the age of his late 20s, or early 30s, by him giving an answer like that he revealed that he lacked the proper sense to be a pastor.

Vinny

I think you're really asking two different questions here, though. One is "what is the RIGHT thing to do in this situation" and the other is "what would YOU do". I think we all agree that the right thing to do is to not turn the person over to the Nazis. But, when the rubber meets the road, would you actually risk losing everything for the sake of this person? Would you risk everything that you have, including your life? Would you risk condemning your own family to torture and death? Then it isn't so easy.

You are correct. Two questions. I was asking the idealistic version. Not the practical version.

Vinny

To bring this up to our time where the U.S.A. is grappling with systemic racism just like Nazi Germany did, how about this hypothetical: It's the middle of the night and a large, black man is beating on your front door, begging you to let him in because the cops have mistaken him for a cop-killer and will likely kill him when they catch up in a few minutes.

Do you open your door, let him in, hide him, and lie to the police when they show up? If not, aren't you part of the systemic racism problem just like that SS officer back in 1940?

I think I need some elucidation from you regarding what you wrote above.

Vinny

drumminj wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:36 pm

stuper1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:28 pm If not, aren't you part of the systemic racism problem just like that SS officer back in 1940?

There's a presumption here that systemic racism is a thing/issue. Did I miss where that became a given?

I read it in all of the newspapers. They wouldn't all lie about this, would they?

vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:41 pm

stuper1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:28 pm

vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:46 am

Xan wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:37 am

vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:51 am

stuper1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:22 am It's called being holier than thou. Very common among people who aspire to be pastors. Also very common among SJWs.

This guy was a completely nice guy. Everyone loved him. But having reached the age of his late 20s, or early 30s, by him giving an answer like that he revealed that he lacked the proper sense to be a pastor.

Vinny

I think you're really asking two different questions here, though. One is "what is the RIGHT thing to do in this situation" and the other is "what would YOU do". I think we all agree that the right thing to do is to not turn the person over to the Nazis. But, when the rubber meets the road, would you actually risk losing everything for the sake of this person? Would you risk everything that you have, including your life? Would you risk condemning your own family to torture and death? Then it isn't so easy.

You are correct. Two questions. I was asking the idealistic version. Not the practical version.

Vinny

To bring this up to our time where the U.S.A. is grappling with systemic racism just like Nazi Germany did, how about this hypothetical: It's the middle of the night and a large, black man is beating on your front door, begging you to let him in because the cops have mistaken him for a cop-killer and will likely kill him when they catch up in a few minutes.

Do you open your door, let him in, hide him, and lie to the police when they show up? If not, aren't you part of the systemic racism problem just like that SS officer back in 1940?

I think I need some elucidation from you regarding what you wrote above.

Vinny

The Nazis killed the Jews due to racism. The cops are killing blacks due to racism. Todays cops are essentially Nazis. Don't we have the same duty to protect blacks from cops as we would to protect Jews from Nazis?

I, for one, thought it was a fun thought experiment.