This guy was a completely nice guy. Everyone loved him. But having reached the age of his late 20s, or early 30s, by him giving an answer like that he revealed that he lacked the proper sense to be a pastor.
Vinny
Moderator: Global Moderator
This guy was a completely nice guy. Everyone loved him. But having reached the age of his late 20s, or early 30s, by him giving an answer like that he revealed that he lacked the proper sense to be a pastor.
Guidelines may have been the wrong word to use in this instance.Cortopassi wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:45 pmI'm hoping there doesn't need to be a guideline against "kneel on the offender's neck until he's good and dead"
But you are right:
The manual of the Minneapolis Police Department states that neck restraints and chokeholds are basically reserved for when an officer feels caught in a life-or-death situation.
Not that Floyd looked like he was in any sort of position of power to make the officer feel that way.
The difference is Man's Law vs Gods Law.vnatale wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:35 pm
I'll ask you this question.
We are back in Germany during Nazi Germany times. You are hiding a Jew in your house. The Nazis come to your door and ask you is you are hiding any Jews in your house. You ARE breaking a law. And, if you answer them falsely you are breaking one of the Ten Commandments of not telling the truth.
Do you follow the law and the Ten Commandments and turn over the Jew you had been hiding?
Vinny
I think you're really asking two different questions here, though. One is "what is the RIGHT thing to do in this situation" and the other is "what would YOU do". I think we all agree that the right thing to do is to not turn the person over to the Nazis. But, when the rubber meets the road, would you actually risk losing everything for the sake of this person? Would you risk everything that you have, including your life? Would you risk condemning your own family to torture and death? Then it isn't so easy.
Totally agree with you. You'd think an aspiring pastor would be aware of that?shekels wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:07 amThe difference is Man's Law vs Gods Law.vnatale wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:35 pm
I'll ask you this question.
We are back in Germany during Nazi Germany times. You are hiding a Jew in your house. The Nazis come to your door and ask you is you are hiding any Jews in your house. You ARE breaking a law. And, if you answer them falsely you are breaking one of the Ten Commandments of not telling the truth.
Do you follow the law and the Ten Commandments and turn over the Jew you had been hiding?
Vinny
Man's Law will abolish Free Men of their Life ,Liberty and Freedom with their "Laws"
You are correct. Two questions. I was asking the idealistic version. Not the practical version.Xan wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:37 amI think you're really asking two different questions here, though. One is "what is the RIGHT thing to do in this situation" and the other is "what would YOU do". I think we all agree that the right thing to do is to not turn the person over to the Nazis. But, when the rubber meets the road, would you actually risk losing everything for the sake of this person? Would you risk everything that you have, including your life? Would you risk condemning your own family to torture and death? Then it isn't so easy.
Unless there are other video angles, any subduing of Floyd that might have been needed ended within 30 seconds of being on the ground. That the knee was still there 8 minutes later, shows intent to cause harm, probably because he pissed him off. I would like to believe he just wanted to cause him some pain and be done with it, and really did not intend to kill him, but he had ample time to calm down and give at least some rational thought to what he was doing.shekels wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:59 amGuidelines may have been the wrong word to use in this instance.Cortopassi wrote: ↑Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:45 pmI'm hoping there doesn't need to be a guideline against "kneel on the offender's neck until he's good and dead"
But you are right:
The manual of the Minneapolis Police Department states that neck restraints and chokeholds are basically reserved for when an officer feels caught in a life-or-death situation.
Not that Floyd looked like he was in any sort of position of power to make the officer feel that way.
What I was leading to was if the Police followed procedure and the procedure ended in harm/death then who is at fault?
The Mayor and or City Council,maybe the State legislator possibly the Governor?
Or maybe just throw the Police under the bus and wash you hands of the matter.
We all know that the police do not have a specific Duty to respond to citizens.
To bring this up to our time where the U.S.A. is grappling with systemic racism just like Nazi Germany did, how about this hypothetical: It's the middle of the night and a large, black man is beating on your front door, begging you to let him in because the cops have mistaken him for a cop-killer and will likely kill him when they catch up in a few minutes.vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:46 amYou are correct. Two questions. I was asking the idealistic version. Not the practical version.Xan wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:37 amI think you're really asking two different questions here, though. One is "what is the RIGHT thing to do in this situation" and the other is "what would YOU do". I think we all agree that the right thing to do is to not turn the person over to the Nazis. But, when the rubber meets the road, would you actually risk losing everything for the sake of this person? Would you risk everything that you have, including your life? Would you risk condemning your own family to torture and death? Then it isn't so easy.
Vinny
I think I need some elucidation from you regarding what you wrote above.stuper1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:28 pmTo bring this up to our time where the U.S.A. is grappling with systemic racism just like Nazi Germany did, how about this hypothetical: It's the middle of the night and a large, black man is beating on your front door, begging you to let him in because the cops have mistaken him for a cop-killer and will likely kill him when they catch up in a few minutes.vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:46 amYou are correct. Two questions. I was asking the idealistic version. Not the practical version.Xan wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:37 amI think you're really asking two different questions here, though. One is "what is the RIGHT thing to do in this situation" and the other is "what would YOU do". I think we all agree that the right thing to do is to not turn the person over to the Nazis. But, when the rubber meets the road, would you actually risk losing everything for the sake of this person? Would you risk everything that you have, including your life? Would you risk condemning your own family to torture and death? Then it isn't so easy.
Vinny
Do you open your door, let him in, hide him, and lie to the police when they show up? If not, aren't you part of the systemic racism problem just like that SS officer back in 1940?
I read it in all of the newspapers. They wouldn't all lie about this, would they?
The Nazis killed the Jews due to racism. The cops are killing blacks due to racism. Todays cops are essentially Nazis. Don't we have the same duty to protect blacks from cops as we would to protect Jews from Nazis?vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:41 pmI think I need some elucidation from you regarding what you wrote above.stuper1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:28 pmTo bring this up to our time where the U.S.A. is grappling with systemic racism just like Nazi Germany did, how about this hypothetical: It's the middle of the night and a large, black man is beating on your front door, begging you to let him in because the cops have mistaken him for a cop-killer and will likely kill him when they catch up in a few minutes.vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:46 amYou are correct. Two questions. I was asking the idealistic version. Not the practical version.Xan wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:37 amI think you're really asking two different questions here, though. One is "what is the RIGHT thing to do in this situation" and the other is "what would YOU do". I think we all agree that the right thing to do is to not turn the person over to the Nazis. But, when the rubber meets the road, would you actually risk losing everything for the sake of this person? Would you risk everything that you have, including your life? Would you risk condemning your own family to torture and death? Then it isn't so easy.
Vinny
Do you open your door, let him in, hide him, and lie to the police when they show up? If not, aren't you part of the systemic racism problem just like that SS officer back in 1940?
Vinny
I don't accept any of your premises.stuper1 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:26 amThe Nazis killed the Jews due to racism. The cops are killing blacks due to racism. Todays cops are essentially Nazis. Don't we have the same duty to protect blacks from cops as we would to protect Jews from Nazis?vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:41 pmI think I need some elucidation from you regarding what you wrote above.stuper1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:28 pmTo bring this up to our time where the U.S.A. is grappling with systemic racism just like Nazi Germany did, how about this hypothetical: It's the middle of the night and a large, black man is beating on your front door, begging you to let him in because the cops have mistaken him for a cop-killer and will likely kill him when they catch up in a few minutes.vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:46 amYou are correct. Two questions. I was asking the idealistic version. Not the practical version.Xan wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:37 amI think you're really asking two different questions here, though. One is "what is the RIGHT thing to do in this situation" and the other is "what would YOU do". I think we all agree that the right thing to do is to not turn the person over to the Nazis. But, when the rubber meets the road, would you actually risk losing everything for the sake of this person? Would you risk everything that you have, including your life? Would you risk condemning your own family to torture and death? Then it isn't so easy.
Vinny
Do you open your door, let him in, hide him, and lie to the police when they show up? If not, aren't you part of the systemic racism problem just like that SS officer back in 1940?
Vinny
Are the cops really killing blacks due to racism? Then why is it that they are more likely to kill whites on a per-encounter basis? And, why is it that the vast majority of those killed are (usually quite reasonably) perceived as armed and dangerous at the time? The narrative that cops are preferentially killing blacks has already been pretty clearly disproven.
That's fine, that's fine. The whole purpose of the thought experiment was to identify persons who have been resistant and require higher levels of social programming. Your results have been noted and will be passed for action to the proper department. Let there be no ill will between us. We do not begrudge your attempts to mislead us with claims of following a higher law. With adequate programming you will see things much more clearly.vnatale wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:21 amI don't accept any of your premises.stuper1 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:26 amThe Nazis killed the Jews due to racism. The cops are killing blacks due to racism. Todays cops are essentially Nazis. Don't we have the same duty to protect blacks from cops as we would to protect Jews from Nazis?vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:41 pmI think I need some elucidation from you regarding what you wrote above.stuper1 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:28 pmTo bring this up to our time where the U.S.A. is grappling with systemic racism just like Nazi Germany did, how about this hypothetical: It's the middle of the night and a large, black man is beating on your front door, begging you to let him in because the cops have mistaken him for a cop-killer and will likely kill him when they catch up in a few minutes.vnatale wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:46 amYou are correct. Two questions. I was asking the idealistic version. Not the practical version.Xan wrote: ↑Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:37 amI think you're really asking two different questions here, though. One is "what is the RIGHT thing to do in this situation" and the other is "what would YOU do". I think we all agree that the right thing to do is to not turn the person over to the Nazis. But, when the rubber meets the road, would you actually risk losing everything for the sake of this person? Would you risk everything that you have, including your life? Would you risk condemning your own family to torture and death? Then it isn't so easy.
Vinny
Do you open your door, let him in, hide him, and lie to the police when they show up? If not, aren't you part of the systemic racism problem just like that SS officer back in 1940?
Vinny
And, the point of my example had nothing to do with racism. It had to do with do you follow the law to the letter or do you obey a "higher" law.
Vinny
Vinny
1984 finally arrives in 2020?stuper1 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:46 pm
That's fine, that's fine. The whole purpose of the thought experiment was to identify persons who have been resistant and require higher levels of social programming. Your results have been noted and will be passed for action to the proper department. Let there be no ill will between us. We do not begrudge your attempts to mislead us with claims of following a higher law. With adequate programming you will see things much more clearly.
My thought experiment was inspired by this story from Minneapolis in the NYT which I think we discussed on this forum recently:vnatale wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:41 pm1984 finally arrives in 2020?stuper1 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:46 pm
That's fine, that's fine. The whole purpose of the thought experiment was to identify persons who have been resistant and require higher levels of social programming. Your results have been noted and will be passed for action to the proper department. Let there be no ill will between us. We do not begrudge your attempts to mislead us with claims of following a higher law. With adequate programming you will see things much more clearly.
Vinny