George Floyd

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Kriegsspiel
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Re: George Floyd

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:29 am

I, for one, thought it was a fun thought experiment.
I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. Who knows whether that person will be wise or foolish? Yet they will have control over all the fruit of my toil into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. . . Nothing is better for a man than to eat and drink and enjoy his work.
- Ecclesiastes
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vnatale
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Re: George Floyd

Post by vnatale » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:21 am

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:26 am
vnatale wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:41 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:28 pm
vnatale wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:46 am
Xan wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:37 am
vnatale wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:51 am
stuper1 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:22 am
It's called being holier than thou. Very common among people who aspire to be pastors. Also very common among SJWs.
This guy was a completely nice guy. Everyone loved him. But having reached the age of his late 20s, or early 30s, by him giving an answer like that he revealed that he lacked the proper sense to be a pastor.

Vinny
I think you're really asking two different questions here, though. One is "what is the RIGHT thing to do in this situation" and the other is "what would YOU do". I think we all agree that the right thing to do is to not turn the person over to the Nazis. But, when the rubber meets the road, would you actually risk losing everything for the sake of this person? Would you risk everything that you have, including your life? Would you risk condemning your own family to torture and death? Then it isn't so easy.
You are correct. Two questions. I was asking the idealistic version. Not the practical version.

Vinny
To bring this up to our time where the U.S.A. is grappling with systemic racism just like Nazi Germany did, how about this hypothetical: It's the middle of the night and a large, black man is beating on your front door, begging you to let him in because the cops have mistaken him for a cop-killer and will likely kill him when they catch up in a few minutes.

Do you open your door, let him in, hide him, and lie to the police when they show up? If not, aren't you part of the systemic racism problem just like that SS officer back in 1940?
I think I need some elucidation from you regarding what you wrote above.

Vinny
The Nazis killed the Jews due to racism. The cops are killing blacks due to racism. Todays cops are essentially Nazis. Don't we have the same duty to protect blacks from cops as we would to protect Jews from Nazis?
I don't accept any of your premises.

And, the point of my example had nothing to do with racism. It had to do with do you follow the law to the letter or do you obey a "higher" law.

Vinny

Vinny
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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sophie
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Re: George Floyd

Post by sophie » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:12 am

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:26 am
The Nazis killed the Jews due to racism. The cops are killing blacks due to racism. Todays cops are essentially Nazis. Don't we have the same duty to protect blacks from cops as we would to protect Jews from Nazis?
Are the cops really killing blacks due to racism? Then why is it that they are more likely to kill whites on a per-encounter basis? And, why is it that the vast majority of those killed are (usually quite reasonably) perceived as armed and dangerous at the time? The narrative that cops are preferentially killing blacks has already been pretty clearly disproven.

Also, you're underestimating the inherent danger involved to both parties when there is an adversarial encounter, in which one party is duty bound to subdue the other, and the other is acting in a violent manner. Not only is this a scary and unpredictable situation by its very nature, but decisions have to be made very quickly without a lot of time for thought. For example in the case of Breonna Taylor, the police were faced with an active shooter in the apartment. How much time do you think they had to calmly analyze the situation and decide that the guy firing a handgun at them didn't really pose a threat? Even with the best of training and preparation, it is inevitable that missteps and inadvertent bad outcomes will happen. Not every situation can be covered with a training scenario.

In that case I the problem was the "no-knock" warrant, which set up the dangerous situation. Those should absolutely be outlawed. Ditto criminalizing drug possession. These however aren't for the police to determine - these things are only actionable at the legislative level.

BTW it was also a good example of why a handgun might not protect you from a bunch of armed robbers breaking into your home. Unless you can take out every one of them with it before any of them has a chance to fire back.
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Re: George Floyd

Post by stuper1 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:46 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:21 am
stuper1 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:26 am
vnatale wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:41 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 6:28 pm
vnatale wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:46 am
Xan wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:37 am
vnatale wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:51 am
stuper1 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:22 am
It's called being holier than thou. Very common among people who aspire to be pastors. Also very common among SJWs.
This guy was a completely nice guy. Everyone loved him. But having reached the age of his late 20s, or early 30s, by him giving an answer like that he revealed that he lacked the proper sense to be a pastor.

Vinny
I think you're really asking two different questions here, though. One is "what is the RIGHT thing to do in this situation" and the other is "what would YOU do". I think we all agree that the right thing to do is to not turn the person over to the Nazis. But, when the rubber meets the road, would you actually risk losing everything for the sake of this person? Would you risk everything that you have, including your life? Would you risk condemning your own family to torture and death? Then it isn't so easy.
You are correct. Two questions. I was asking the idealistic version. Not the practical version.

Vinny
To bring this up to our time where the U.S.A. is grappling with systemic racism just like Nazi Germany did, how about this hypothetical: It's the middle of the night and a large, black man is beating on your front door, begging you to let him in because the cops have mistaken him for a cop-killer and will likely kill him when they catch up in a few minutes.

Do you open your door, let him in, hide him, and lie to the police when they show up? If not, aren't you part of the systemic racism problem just like that SS officer back in 1940?
I think I need some elucidation from you regarding what you wrote above.

Vinny
The Nazis killed the Jews due to racism. The cops are killing blacks due to racism. Todays cops are essentially Nazis. Don't we have the same duty to protect blacks from cops as we would to protect Jews from Nazis?
I don't accept any of your premises.

And, the point of my example had nothing to do with racism. It had to do with do you follow the law to the letter or do you obey a "higher" law.

Vinny

Vinny
That's fine, that's fine. The whole purpose of the thought experiment was to identify persons who have been resistant and require higher levels of social programming. Your results have been noted and will be passed for action to the proper department. Let there be no ill will between us. We do not begrudge your attempts to mislead us with claims of following a higher law. With adequate programming you will see things much more clearly.
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Re: George Floyd

Post by vnatale » Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:41 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:46 pm


That's fine, that's fine. The whole purpose of the thought experiment was to identify persons who have been resistant and require higher levels of social programming. Your results have been noted and will be passed for action to the proper department. Let there be no ill will between us. We do not begrudge your attempts to mislead us with claims of following a higher law. With adequate programming you will see things much more clearly.
1984 finally arrives in 2020?

Vinny
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: George Floyd

Post by stuper1 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:27 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:41 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:46 pm


That's fine, that's fine. The whole purpose of the thought experiment was to identify persons who have been resistant and require higher levels of social programming. Your results have been noted and will be passed for action to the proper department. Let there be no ill will between us. We do not begrudge your attempts to mislead us with claims of following a higher law. With adequate programming you will see things much more clearly.
1984 finally arrives in 2020?

Vinny
My thought experiment was inspired by this story from Minneapolis in the NYT which I think we discussed on this forum recently:



Mitchell Erickson’s fingers began dialing 911 last week before he had a chance to even consider alternatives, when two black teenagers who looked to be 15, at most, cornered him outside his home a block away from the park.

One of the boys pointed a gun at Mr. Erickson’s chest, demanding his car keys.

Flustered, Mr. Erickson handed over a set, but it turned out to be house keys. The teenagers got frustrated and ran off, then stole a different car down the street.

Mr. Erickson said later that he would not cooperate with prosecutors in a case against the boys. After the altercation, he realized that if there was anything he wanted, it was to offer them help. But he still felt it had been right to call the authorities because there was a gun involved.

Two days after an initial conversation, his position had evolved. “Been thinking more about it,” he wrote in a text message. “I regret calling the police. It was my instinct but I wish it hadn’t been. I put those boys in danger of death by calling the cops.”

What about the fact that the boys had put his life in danger?

“Yeah I know and yeah it was scary but the cops didn’t really have much to add after I called them,” he replied. “I haven’t been forced to think like this before. So I would have lost my car. So what? At least no one would have been killed.”
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Kriegsspiel
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Re: George Floyd

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:40 pm

The world has become a strange and stupid place :P
I hated all the things I had toiled for under the sun, because I must leave them to the one who comes after me. Who knows whether that person will be wise or foolish? Yet they will have control over all the fruit of my toil into which I have poured my effort and skill under the sun. . . Nothing is better for a man than to eat and drink and enjoy his work.
- Ecclesiastes
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Re: George Floyd

Post by shekels » Wed Aug 05, 2020 11:30 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:40 pm
The world has become a strange and stupid place :P
Police Body Cam video of George Floyd arrest.
https://youtu.be/YPSwqp5fdIw
Last edited by shekels on Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: George Floyd

Post by shekels » Wed Aug 05, 2020 12:00 pm

Crime skyrockets in Minneapolis as police publish letter offering advice on how to avoid getting robbed, carjacked

minneapolis-letter.jpg
minneapolis-letter.jpg (116.83 KiB) Viewed 159 times
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