An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

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technovelist
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by technovelist » Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:22 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:42 am
pmward wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:18 am
Looks at the title of the thread. Looks at what it devolved into....

We really are a laughing stock to the whole world right now, and here it is openly on display for all to see. This is really what America is like these days ladies and gentleman. Aren't you all just itching to move here???
Here's what I've found. If tech and I sit down for a drink, for example, we will be cordial, have a heated discussion and respect, to some level, each other's opinion. (I hope!)

These message boards, social media and the press amplify differences of opinion 100x. It's impossible to get your demeanor, body language, and how you'd actually say the words across without it likely being misinterpreted to some extent. So I always read tech as yelling at everyone who doesn't love Trump and as being this crabby old white guy. He probably reads me as (fill in the blank). But if we got together, we'd likely find we have a lot in common, and just some differences of opinion which we wouldn't bring up very often.

I was in a meeting yesterday with a bunch of tech-type people, and instead of discussing work we talked masks, covid, Trump, etc. My boss would absolutely be a soulmate to tech, and I have known and worked with him for over 20 years. I love the guy. But every now and then we get into these discussions and both he and I get exasperated that we can't understand the other person's opinion. And then we laugh it off, drop it, and get back to work.
You are unusual as a leftist who is willing to discuss issues without demonizing your opponents.

My recent experience is that in general non-leftists think leftists are wrong, and leftists think non-leftists are evil.
I'm actually not even a Republican in most senses of the word, but rather a libertarian (small "l", not necessarily agreeing with the Libertarian Party).
However, most of my Presidential votes have been for the LP candidate.
I have voted four times for non-Libertarian Presidential candidates: twice for Democrats and twice for Republicans.

So I'm not really a partisan by choice. I'd prefer two parties to present candidates whom it would be possible for me to vote for.

Right now the Democrat party has been taken over by terrorists. It could have been the Republican party, e.g., someone even worse than GWB, while the Democrats were trying to be reasonable, in which case I would have become a rabid Democrat.

But it wasn't. It is the Democrat party that is sanctioning looting, arson, rioting.
It is the Democrat party that is supporting people like this terrorist, who says that if Black Lives Matter doesn't get what they want, they will "burn down the system": https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2020/06 ... is-system/.
It is the Democrat party that has been attempting through any means, fair or foul, to remove Trump from office. Those means have been proven to include spying, threatening his associates with prison for made up crimes that the prosecutor knew were fake, impeaching him without even alleging high crimes or misdemeanors, and attacking his character 24/7 on their captive news media outlets.
It is the Democrat party militia BLM that is extorting money from businesses large and small to avoid being attacked. Did you know that contributions to BLM go to ActBlue, the fundraising arm of the Democrat party? https://www.redstate.com/elizabeth-vaug ... 12/854023/

So although I don't believe that you personally are evil, the side you appear to favor is evil. If the Democrats gets into power, the best outcome is a civil war in which they are completely vanquished. The worst case is tyranny that will make the Soviet Union look pretty good by comparison.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by jalanlong » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:36 pm

So the last few posts before mine have compared the Democrats to terrorists/fascists that scare a lot of people and are out of tune with the average American. However, as of today Biden has a double digit lead over Trump in the election polls. So does the avg American really agree with the Democratic party on these issues indicating that America has turned hard left? Or are they unaware how far left Democrats have become? Or is it just an anti-Trump vote and a potted fern could beat him at this point?
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:55 pm

sophie wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 3:21 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:29 am
sophie wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:10 pm
I'll chime in here....I also have suspected that masks are largely worthless, and there is certainly zero evidence in support of them.

We had to take an online course in how to don and doff PPE at the beginning of the pandemic. It is not at all easy to get it right and there is a good reason why training is necessary. I regard the mask as mainly a fashion statement.

This is relevant to this thread: if you don't toe the line in the US you can now officially be persecuted in many ways: you can be fired, victimized by violent thugs, singled out for ostracism, etc etc. We used to be able to say we live in a free society, but not anymore!!!
If masks are largely worthless, why do the operating room staff wear them? Serious question.
You can't compare these two situations. In the OR, a surgical mask designed for the purpose is being worn by a trained person who is also wearing hair and shoe coverings, gloves, and gown while keeping hands above waist etc. And, your face is inches away from the inside of the patient. It's bacterial contamination of the surgical wound from your breath that the mask is protecting against. With COVID, you have random cloth items worn in all kinds of ways by untrained people, ostensibly for the purpose of preventing a viral exposure. Totally different.

BTW yes this is a pretty civil discussion but that's because everyone is essentially of the same mindset. The distance between the individual positions you see here is much smaller than that between, say, AOC and Ted Cruz. Here's how I see it: Trump pushed the conservative party to shift attention from the traditional talking-point issues of abortion and religion to economic and social issues. Everyone knew that nothing of any relevance would ever happen on the abortion and religion front, so the Republicans were always political wallflowers with little in the way of accomplishments since the Reagan tax cuts. The new focus on dealing with long-neglected issues such as immigration, offshoring, and global trade deals was a direct challenge to policy areas that the Democrats thought they had locked down for decades with virtually no opposition. At the same time, the Democrats have veered to an extreme left position bordering on fascism that frankly scares many people, and has certainly served to increase the fervor on the right.

So you could say Trump is polarizing, but not for personal reasons. It's because he has made the Republican party a political force to be reckoned with, and no one saw it coming.
Thanks Sophie. I appreciate your response; as I understand it, the worthless comment has more to do with the improper behaviors of the wearer than the partial effectiveness of the hardware. Close?
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by jalanlong » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:58 pm

pmward wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:18 am
If the Democrats gets into power, the best outcome is a civil war in which they are completely vanquished. The worst case is tyranny that will make the Soviet Union look pretty good by comparison.

I don't want this question to turn into a partisan thing, rather one of just observations or opinions. But could we look back on 2020 as a watershed moment for the US making the jump to a more authoritarian society? Throughout the last few months, polls have consistently indicated anywhere from 65-70% of respondents supporting mandatory face masks and forced shutdowns/shelter in place ordinances. Regardless of how we may feel about the shutdown personally, if someone would have told us last year at this time that the US government (Fed, State and Local) was going to decide which businesses were essential and which were not, order the shutdown of the non-essentials, order mandatory temperature checks and facemasks and arrest people who went to the beach or went to get a haircut, I feel like most of us would have said no way would a huge % of Americans stand for that. Land of the free, Boston Tea Party, Don't Tread on me and all that. But not only have most Americans stood for it, most have actually supported it. Is this just a unusual series of events (dealing with people's health) that has made people more accepting of government orders or is this a sea change in American's trust and relationship with a strong government?
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by technovelist » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:10 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:36 pm
So the last few posts before mine have compared the Democrats to terrorists/fascists that scare a lot of people and are out of tune with the average American. However, as of today Biden has a double digit lead over Trump in the election polls. So does the avg American really agree with the Democratic party on these issues indicating that America has turned hard left? Or are they unaware how far left Democrats have become? Or is it just an anti-Trump vote and a potted fern could beat him at this point?
None of the above. Those polls are not intended to measure public opinion but to manipulate it.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by technovelist » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:13 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:58 pm
pmward wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:18 am
If the Democrats gets into power, the best outcome is a civil war in which they are completely vanquished. The worst case is tyranny that will make the Soviet Union look pretty good by comparison.

I don't want this question to turn into a partisan thing, rather one of just observations or opinions. But could we look back on 2020 as a watershed moment for the US making the jump to a more authoritarian society? Throughout the last few months, polls have consistently indicated anywhere from 65-70% of respondents supporting mandatory face masks and forced shutdowns/shelter in place ordinances. Regardless of how we may feel about the shutdown personally, if someone would have told us last year at this time that the US government (Fed, State and Local) was going to decide which businesses were essential and which were not, order the shutdown of the non-essentials, order mandatory temperature checks and facemasks and arrest people who went to the beach or went to get a haircut, I feel like most of us would have said no way would a huge % of Americans stand for that. Land of the free, Boston Tea Party, Don't Tread on me and all that. But not only have most Americans stood for it, most have actually supported it. Is this just a unusual series of events (dealing with people's health) that has made people more accepting of government orders or is this a sea change in American's trust and relationship with a strong government?
I think the former, especially because Trump is supposedly such a Hitlerian figure. It's pretty hard to figure out how all these people who supposedly hate Trump are also supposedly in favor of a totalitarian government headed by... Trump.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by vnatale » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:36 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:58 pm
pmward wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:18 am
If the Democrats gets into power, the best outcome is a civil war in which they are completely vanquished. The worst case is tyranny that will make the Soviet Union look pretty good by comparison.

I don't want this question to turn into a partisan thing, rather one of just observations or opinions. But could we look back on 2020 as a watershed moment for the US making the jump to a more authoritarian society? Throughout the last few months, polls have consistently indicated anywhere from 65-70% of respondents supporting mandatory face masks and forced shutdowns/shelter in place ordinances. Regardless of how we may feel about the shutdown personally, if someone would have told us last year at this time that the US government (Fed, State and Local) was going to decide which businesses were essential and which were not, order the shutdown of the non-essentials, order mandatory temperature checks and facemasks and arrest people who went to the beach or went to get a haircut, I feel like most of us would have said no way would a huge % of Americans stand for that. Land of the free, Boston Tea Party, Don't Tread on me and all that. But not only have most Americans stood for it, most have actually supported it. Is this just a unusual series of events (dealing with people's health) that has made people more accepting of government orders or is this a sea change in American's trust and relationship with a strong government?
What was your reaction to after 9/11 where we got the Patriot Act, all we have to go through when we fly through this day, all the protections in Washington D.C. and elsewhere, and all everything else the American people have accepted as permanent way of life after 9/11?

Vinny
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by jalanlong » Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:58 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:36 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:58 pm
pmward wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:18 am
If the Democrats gets into power, the best outcome is a civil war in which they are completely vanquished. The worst case is tyranny that will make the Soviet Union look pretty good by comparison.

I don't want this question to turn into a partisan thing, rather one of just observations or opinions. But could we look back on 2020 as a watershed moment for the US making the jump to a more authoritarian society? Throughout the last few months, polls have consistently indicated anywhere from 65-70% of respondents supporting mandatory face masks and forced shutdowns/shelter in place ordinances. Regardless of how we may feel about the shutdown personally, if someone would have told us last year at this time that the US government (Fed, State and Local) was going to decide which businesses were essential and which were not, order the shutdown of the non-essentials, order mandatory temperature checks and facemasks and arrest people who went to the beach or went to get a haircut, I feel like most of us would have said no way would a huge % of Americans stand for that. Land of the free, Boston Tea Party, Don't Tread on me and all that. But not only have most Americans stood for it, most have actually supported it. Is this just a unusual series of events (dealing with people's health) that has made people more accepting of government orders or is this a sea change in American's trust and relationship with a strong government?
What was your reaction to after 9/11 where we got the Patriot Act, all we have to go through when we fly through this day, all the protections in Washington D.C. and elsewhere, and all everything else the American people have accepted as permanent way of life after 9/11?

Vinny
I am not sure I find them comparable. First of all, flying is a choice. You can always get somewhere another way or not go at all. Things like phone surveillance and some of the reporting that banks now have to do with applications and wire transfers etc. don't really affect the average American in a tangible way that they think about. But a local official (some of whom are unelected) suddenly deciding the business you work for is non-essential and forced to close, taking away your livelihood,affects people in the most profound way possible. And I am shocked at how quickly it happened, with very little debate over it and how easily most people seemed to go along with it and really still accept it to this day. I think most of us would have suspected a bit more pushback from the citizenry on it.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by vnatale » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:11 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:58 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 5:36 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:58 pm
pmward wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:18 am
If the Democrats gets into power, the best outcome is a civil war in which they are completely vanquished. The worst case is tyranny that will make the Soviet Union look pretty good by comparison.

I don't want this question to turn into a partisan thing, rather one of just observations or opinions. But could we look back on 2020 as a watershed moment for the US making the jump to a more authoritarian society? Throughout the last few months, polls have consistently indicated anywhere from 65-70% of respondents supporting mandatory face masks and forced shutdowns/shelter in place ordinances. Regardless of how we may feel about the shutdown personally, if someone would have told us last year at this time that the US government (Fed, State and Local) was going to decide which businesses were essential and which were not, order the shutdown of the non-essentials, order mandatory temperature checks and facemasks and arrest people who went to the beach or went to get a haircut, I feel like most of us would have said no way would a huge % of Americans stand for that. Land of the free, Boston Tea Party, Don't Tread on me and all that. But not only have most Americans stood for it, most have actually supported it. Is this just a unusual series of events (dealing with people's health) that has made people more accepting of government orders or is this a sea change in American's trust and relationship with a strong government?
What was your reaction to after 9/11 where we got the Patriot Act, all we have to go through when we fly through this day, all the protections in Washington D.C. and elsewhere, and all everything else the American people have accepted as permanent way of life after 9/11?

Vinny
I am not sure I find them comparable. First of all, flying is a choice. You can always get somewhere another way or not go at all. Things like phone surveillance and some of the reporting that banks now have to do with applications and wire transfers etc. don't really affect the average American in a tangible way that they think about. But a local official (some of whom are unelected) suddenly deciding the business you work for is non-essential and forced to close, taking away your livelihood,affects people in the most profound way possible. And I am shocked at how quickly it happened, with very little debate over it and how easily most people seemed to go along with it and really still accept it to this day. I think most of us would have suspected a bit more pushback from the citizenry on it.
I'd agree with you with what we are undergoing now is far more drastic. However, it feels like they are both on the same continuum.

Vinny
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by sophie » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:26 am

jalanlong wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:36 pm
So the last few posts before mine have compared the Democrats to terrorists/fascists that scare a lot of people and are out of tune with the average American. However, as of today Biden has a double digit lead over Trump in the election polls. So does the avg American really agree with the Democratic party on these issues indicating that America has turned hard left? Or are they unaware how far left Democrats have become? Or is it just an anti-Trump vote and a potted fern could beat him at this point?
There is no "average American". There's conservatives & liberals who will always stay on their end of the spectrum and vote accordingly, and a centrist population straddling the two sides. It's that centrist population that decides the election (voter turnout among the other groups is a factor too, yes).

How many of those centrist voters can see through all the propaganda to understand what the Democratic party stands for? It is very difficult right now with Trump's unerring instinct for saying the wrong thing plus the massive media effort against him. Effectively Biden has him outgunned because he has the entire mainstream press effectively as part of his campaign.

If Trump can start laying out a more positive message and get it past the media tirade, he might have a chance. Realize that there's been so little direct exposure to Biden that people don't really know who he is at this point. Things may change quite a bit depending on how he is presented - especially at debates. Also, it is possible that people's view of BLM will gradually cool as they realize how destructive their demands would be if implemented. Right now they're kind of the cool kid on the block due to press promotion and everyone's fear of being labeled as a racist, but that only gets you so far.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by flyingpylon » Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:32 am

sophie wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 10:26 am
There is no "average American". There's conservatives & liberals who will always stay on their end of the spectrum and vote accordingly, and a centrist population straddling the two sides. It's that centrist population that decides the election (voter turnout among the other groups is a factor too, yes).
And you could probably narrow that down further to the centrist population in a handful of states. Maybe even select counties in some cases.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by pp4me » Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:14 am

I think Biden is playing it pretty smart by staying out of sight and keeping his name out of the news as much as possible. Also wearing a mask whenever he does go out in public. In other words he's being the perfect antidote to what people don't like about Trump right now.

Whether that's a winning strategy or not and if he'll be allowed to keep doing it (obviously the MSM will let him) remains to be seen.

In the meantime he's got lots of time to prepare for his acceptance speech at the convention and the three debates while Trump is having to run the country.
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