An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

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Cortopassi
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:43 am

krieg,

Still driving without a seatbelt? ;)

I remember how contentious that was. And now most everyone does it. And it saves lives without a doubt. Do you feel your freedom is curtailed by that? And it is even more of a personal thing, it likely will only save you. Masks can possibly save others.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by pugchief » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:03 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 7:43 am
krieg,

Still driving without a seatbelt? ;)

I remember how contentious that was. And now most everyone does it. And it saves lives without a doubt. Do you feel your freedom is curtailed by that? And it is even more of a personal thing, it likely will only save you. Masks can possibly save others.
Study after study proved unequivocally that seatbelts save lives. The problem with the mask thing is there appears to be no consensus of whether they actually do anything other than annoy everyone.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:10 am

I'm not disputing that there isn't a consensus on masks. All I can do is point to a state, like IL, which seems to have really high mask compliance, vs. some of these southern states, which don't seem to, and the difference in infections. There could be other factors I am not considering for sure.

I know it is a completely different situation, but you obviously wear protection when you work on patients, pug. Why bother? You're obviously stopping something one direction or the other. Logically wouldn't general mask use at least give some protection, even if just from a simple infected sneeze or cough being contained vs. spewed 20 feet?
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Xan » Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:28 am

The great link that flyingpylon posted in the other thread points out that in Texas, any patient who is hospitalized for whatever reason and happens to test positive for coronavirus (and it isn't even clear whether that means antibodies or an active infection) is counted as a "coronavirus hospitalization". So a lot of the difference between states could be how the numbers are being counted.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:52 am

Xan wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:28 am
The great link that flyingpylon posted in the other thread points out that in Texas, any patient who is hospitalized for whatever reason and happens to test positive for coronavirus (and it isn't even clear whether that means antibodies or an active infection) is counted as a "coronavirus hospitalization". So a lot of the difference between states could be how the numbers are being counted.
I don't understand this. My sense is many of these states with rising cases lean right, so why on earth would they be in the camp of wanting to potentially over count cases?

Regardless, if you are in the hospital for something else, they have to test you for Covid, makes sense, because they then have to deal with isolation/protocols in dealing with you if you have it, which probably eats up staff and facility resources.

I think the most telling thing was the hospital saying they always want to run ICU beds at 80+% capacity regardless, otherwise it's like empty airline seats. I didn't know that, but it makes sense.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Xan » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:00 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:52 am
Xan wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:28 am
The great link that flyingpylon posted in the other thread points out that in Texas, any patient who is hospitalized for whatever reason and happens to test positive for coronavirus (and it isn't even clear whether that means antibodies or an active infection) is counted as a "coronavirus hospitalization". So a lot of the difference between states could be how the numbers are being counted.
I don't understand this. My sense is many of these states with rising cases lean right, so why on earth would they be in the camp of wanting to potentially over count cases?

Regardless, if you are in the hospital for something else, they have to test you for Covid, makes sense, because they then have to deal with isolation/protocols in dealing with you if you have it, which probably eats up staff and facility resources.

I think the most telling thing was the hospital saying they always want to run ICU beds at 80+% capacity regardless, otherwise it's like empty airline seats. I didn't know that, but it makes sense.
Well, you've got a positive test, and you're in the hospital; I'm guessing it's hard to write a rule that describes what's a "covid reason" versus what isn't. Probably also hard to get doctor to be consistent about such a thing.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:03 am

On the country's divide:

An interesting comparison of the home pages of CNN and Fox news. Fox shows nothing of the rise in cases and the rollback of some openings. And CNN is pushing that hard. But Fox is putting stories about wearing masks can be helpful.

Image

Image
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Tortoise » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:04 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 10:52 am
My sense is many of these states with rising cases lean right, so why on earth would they be in the camp of wanting to potentially over count cases?
Perhaps because the CARES Act adds a 20% premium for Covid-19 Medicare patients. I.e., hospitals everywhere have a financial incentive to overcount Covid-19 patients.

https://www.aha.org/advisory/2020-04-16 ... provisions
Joe is just Biden his time now.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by pugchief » Fri Jun 26, 2020 11:29 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 9:10 am
I'm not disputing that there isn't a consensus on masks. All I can do is point to a state, like IL, which seems to have really high mask compliance, vs. some of these southern states, which don't seem to, and the difference in infections. There could be other factors I am not considering for sure.

I know it is a completely different situation, but you obviously wear protection when you work on patients, pug. Why bother? You're obviously stopping something one direction or the other. Logically wouldn't general mask use at least give some protection, even if just from a simple infected sneeze or cough being contained vs. spewed 20 feet?
We use equipment that generates aerosols. That makes our environment higher risk. We also know how to use masks properly. From the comments at the Denninger article that was posted in the other thread:
All four Scandinavian countries reject masks outright. They just don't say masks are not required. They say masks are counterproductive. Here is Denmark's health authority:

"The Danish Health Authority does not encourage healthy individuals who go about their daily business to wear mouth or face masks as it is uncertain that they have any effect on virus transmission.
...
Furthermore, mouth or face masks can cause more harm than good. For one thing, you have to know how to use a mask correctly and how to dispose of it responsibly. Incorrect use of a mouth or face mask can increase the risk of your hands being contaminated with the virus when you, e.g. remove or correct the mouth/face mask, thereby increasing the risk of contact spread. To be effective, it has to cover your mouth and your nose, and you have to dispose of it properly. If you use ordinary, simple paper masks, and do not change the mask frequently, you run the risk of the mask becoming too wet, rendering it ineffective. Wearing a mask may, therefore, lull you into a false sense of security. We also do not recommend that you attempt to either sow or fabricate your own mask."

https://www.sst.dk/en/english/corona-eng/faq

It is very informative of the political nature of COVID that American officials give mask guidance that is the complete opposite of Denmark. And they give that guidance while rejecting outright the science that Denmark follows.

The full Orwellian reality of American society is unmistakable. There is no truth - in fact to say there is fundamental truth is to be "racist". Rather, American society has fully embraced relativism. Truth and reality are all temporary and defined and redefined to satisfy political objectives.


A society built this way cannot endure. Its economy cannot function. Its laws are meaningless. Education is fruitless. Its science is utterly corrupted.

These are dark and sad times. A sickness truly covers the land but it is not biological, but a sickness of delusion and the hatred of truth.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:29 pm

For fun, I went to Denninger to see. He has dug in 200% on the masks are worthless side.

Yes, people are most certainly using them wrong. Yes, I am sure I am using it wrong.

Are people in Asian countries who have been using them for years using them right? Or has 1/4 of the world's population been hoodwinked?

I haven't gotten sick in 4 months. Neither my older daughter who gets about 6 colds a year, easy. Is that from hand washing?

One guy said hey, I can smell perfume through it, so it must be bullshit. Well, the perfume is already out in the air. I know I've seen videos on how a mask limits the distance breath, coughs, sneezes, etc get away from your face. Not 100%, no.

As long as you are washing your hands after removing the mask, is it still not of any benefit at all in your opinion?
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by pp4me » Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:47 pm

Interesting how the OP's original thread about polarization in the forum devolved into a heated discussion about face masks.

IMO, if Gov Cuomo can say that rioting and destroying statues is a "healthy expression" then surely there is nothing wrong with members of the forum expressing their opinions. Especially since it's probably one of the few places you can do it without getting "cancelled".

For the record I only wear a seat belt when I'm in a car where the alarm refuses to stop until you put it on. Which is why I mostly drive the 2006 Dodge and my wife the new CRV.

As for face masks we now have an executive order in my county that they must be worn in public and the stores aren't letting you in if don't have one on. That's the only reason I've been wearing one but I'm avoiding having to go to the store as much as possible.

Biden's statement that he will require the wearing of face masks tells you everything you need know about him. And they call Trump a totalitarian dictator.
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Re: An outsiders perspective of the politcal turmoil

Post by pugchief » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:52 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Fri Jun 26, 2020 12:29 pm
For fun, I went to Denninger to see. He has dug in 200% on the masks are worthless side.

Yes, people are most certainly using them wrong. Yes, I am sure I am using it wrong.

Are people in Asian countries who have been using them for years using them right? Or has 1/4 of the world's population been hoodwinked?

I haven't gotten sick in 4 months. Neither my older daughter who gets about 6 colds a year, easy. Is that from hand washing?

One guy said hey, I can smell perfume through it, so it must be bullshit. Well, the perfume is already out in the air. I know I've seen videos on how a mask limits the distance breath, coughs, sneezes, etc get away from your face. Not 100%, no.

As long as you are washing your hands after removing the mask, is it still not of any benefit at all in your opinion?
I assume this question was directed at me. The answer is that it's mostly moot, since the idiots who keep touching and adjusting their masks are mostly also not washing their hands after doing so. I think a good analogy is a condom. It works if you use it properly, but provides a false sense of security against both pregnancy and STDs if used incorrectly. And TBH, I think it's a lot easier to use a condom correctly than a mask.
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