GOP defending Confederate legacy?

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GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by doodle » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:33 pm

How ironic that the Republican party of Lincoln is currently so adamant about defending the Confederate legacy....politics is strange.

The problem with being a rational creature is that one can rationalize anything...so I'm fully prepared to hear a million reasons why this makes logical sense.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:50 pm

I haven't been keeping on top of the news lately, so I'm not sure what fresh outrage triggered talking about Confederates again, but I'm going to drop a half-cocked opinion on you anyways because THIS. IS. INTERNET!
doodle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:33 pm
How ironic that the Republican party of Lincoln is currently so adamant about defending the Confederate legacy....politics is strange.

The problem with being a rational creature is that one can rationalize anything...so I'm fully prepared to hear a million reasons why this makes logical sense.
It's called being a good winner! When a good winner beats someone, they don't rub their face in it. When you let people save face and salvage some dignity from their loss, especially for completely legit reasons (such as their highly-skilled military), it seems to lead to better outcomes than if you just shit all over them forever.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by Xan » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:56 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:50 pm
I haven't been keeping on top of the news lately, so I'm not sure what fresh outrage triggered talking about Confederates again, but I'm going to drop a half-cocked opinion on you anyways because THIS. IS. INTERNET!
doodle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:33 pm
How ironic that the Republican party of Lincoln is currently so adamant about defending the Confederate legacy....politics is strange.

The problem with being a rational creature is that one can rationalize anything...so I'm fully prepared to hear a million reasons why this makes logical sense.
It's called being a good winner! When a good winner beats someone, they don't rub their face in it. When you let people save face and salvage some dignity from their loss, especially for completely legit reasons (such as their highly-skilled military), it seems to lead to better outcomes than if you just shit all over them forever.
Hear, hear!

What's going on now is "breaking the peace". From right after Reconstruction until just recently, it was agreed by everyone that soldiers on both sides fought nobly, that there were good men on both sides, that veterans on both sides were American veterans eligible for honor and benefits. Lincoln's favorite tune was Dixie.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by stuper1 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 3:08 pm

I heard a good point today on the Triggernometry podcast, which by the way I heartily recommend. Two British guys host the podcast. One of them is an immigrant from Russia and grew up under communism, which he hates with a passion. They were talking about statues getting pulled down in the UK. He asked, "Does this mean that I can just unilaterally decide to go pull down the statue of Karl Marx in London?"

In other words, who gets to decide which statues get pulled down? Is it all just done willy-nilly under mob rule? Or is there some orderly procedure? The rightists are the rule of law people. The leftists are wishy-washy, touchy-feely people.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by doodle » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:01 pm

Choosing not to name schools or public buildings after Confederate officials is not being a shitty winner. No one is removing these people from the history books but commemorating these individuals who fought for a system that is universally reviled by naming institutions after them is a bit tasteless for a large segment of our population. Would be nice if this forum had a bit wider swath of individual life experience than those pertaining to middle age INTJ WASP men.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by doodle » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:05 pm

Confederate soldiers fought to preserve one of the most brutal stains on American history. I really think many of you have emotionally disconnected yourselves from how reprehensible the system of slavery was that existed in this country for centuries.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:28 pm

Xan wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:56 pm
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:50 pm
I haven't been keeping on top of the news lately, so I'm not sure what fresh outrage triggered talking about Confederates again, but I'm going to drop a half-cocked opinion on you anyways because THIS. IS. INTERNET!
doodle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:33 pm
How ironic that the Republican party of Lincoln is currently so adamant about defending the Confederate legacy....politics is strange.

The problem with being a rational creature is that one can rationalize anything...so I'm fully prepared to hear a million reasons why this makes logical sense.
It's called being a good winner! When a good winner beats someone, they don't rub their face in it. When you let people save face and salvage some dignity from their loss, especially for completely legit reasons (such as their highly-skilled military), it seems to lead to better outcomes than if you just shit all over them forever.
Hear, hear!

What's going on now is "breaking the peace". From right after Reconstruction until just recently, it was agreed by everyone that soldiers on both sides fought nobly, that there were good men on both sides, that veterans on both sides were American veterans eligible for honor and benefits. Lincoln's favorite tune was Dixie.
Hear, hear, hear! Warning: Trigger was a horse. Snowflakes fall from the sky and melt when heat is present. Rewriting history is for losers. Put that in your book! Or your pipe and smoke it. Or shove it up your butt (I think butts are still ‘equal’ but who knows how long that will last in this perverted culture where anything offends everyone). Going back to whistling Dixie now. Carry on, enjoy the anarchy. >:(
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by pmward » Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:49 pm

I hope all the statues get torn down, buildings renamed, etc. It's been 160 years already. It's about damn time we finally work to move on and stop celebrating that hideous part of this countries history. I bet you don't see Nazi landmarks still standing and being held as sacred in Germany. The fact that confederate landmarks are still kept as sacred here is ridiculous. It's time to move on. Burn it all down! I'll light the match myself... Honestly, it makes me sick to my stomach seeing those of you here defending this issue.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by doodle » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:01 pm

Thank you pmward...I get the conservative desire to maintain status quo, but being an African American teenager and having to attend a high school named after Robert. E Lee has to be off-putting experience. Take down the statues and put them in museums, I'm not for erasing this from history books, I just feel like the Confederate legacy shouldn't be attached to public institutions.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by stuper1 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:04 pm

Ok, but be careful what you wish for. What you're wishing for is basically a Hunger Games type government, centralized thousands of miles away and not listening at all to local concerns. I hope I got my movie analogy close to correct, because truthfully I only ever sat through half of the first Hunger Games movie.

Anywho, what the Confederates fought for was self determination via their state government, which they took to be their sovereign government at that time.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by stuper1 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:06 pm

I think you give African American teenagers less respect than they deserve. They can understand fighting for what you believe in and protecting your family. They can also understand that what people believe to be right can evolve over time.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by doodle » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:14 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:06 pm
I think you give African American teenagers less respect than they deserve. They can understand fighting for what you believe in and protecting your family. They can also understand that what people believe to be right can evolve over time.
As I said...people can rationalize anything. I'm shocked that you can even believe the bullshit that you just wrote...when what you "believe in" is the dehumanization, objectification, murder, rape and torture of an entire race of people. Seriously shocked the lengths that some people will go to defend this legacy.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by doodle » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:19 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:04 pm
Ok, but be careful what you wish for. What you're wishing for is basically a Hunger Games type government, centralized thousands of miles away and not listening at all to local concerns. I hope I got my movie analogy close to correct, because truthfully I only ever sat through half of the first Hunger Games movie.

Anywho, what the Confederates fought for was self determination via their state government, which they took to be their sovereign government at that time.
Let's be real, it was about slavery. You can couch it in whatever political science legalese you like....it was about having the freedom to own and subjegate human beings
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by pmward » Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:33 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:19 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:04 pm
Ok, but be careful what you wish for. What you're wishing for is basically a Hunger Games type government, centralized thousands of miles away and not listening at all to local concerns. I hope I got my movie analogy close to correct, because truthfully I only ever sat through half of the first Hunger Games movie.

Anywho, what the Confederates fought for was self determination via their state government, which they took to be their sovereign government at that time.
Let's be real, it was about slavery. You can couch it in whatever political science legalese you like....it was about having the freedom to own and subjegate human beings
I agree, the whole "state government" thing was just a convenient better sounding BS argument that they could use to rationalize the true reason they went to war. They wanted states to have power because their state would allow them to continue to pursue their selfish dehumanizing actions. Americans have always been selfish to a fault. Things still haven't changed in this regard, even 160 years later.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by Xan » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:01 pm

pmward wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:33 pm
I agree, the whole "state government" thing was just a convenient better sounding BS argument that they could use to rationalize the true reason they went to war. They wanted states to have power because their state would allow them to continue to pursue their selfish dehumanizing actions. Americans have always been selfish to a fault. Things still haven't changed in this regard, even 160 years later.
It was the North that started the war, with no legal basis and for no reason other than to preserve tax revenues.

Slavery was on the way out globally. It would have ended in the US within a generation (I think the last was Brazil in 1888 or some such). An organic, peaceful end to slavery would have led to a much better outcome for everyone than what we got.

The whole "state government thing" is the way this country was designed. The North didn't give any more poops about black people than anyone else, but they did use the war to perform a revolution, centralizing all power in the federal government.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:24 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:05 pm
Confederate soldiers fought to preserve one of the most brutal stains on American history. I really think many of you have emotionally disconnected yourselves from how reprehensible the system of slavery was that existed in this country for centuries.
IMO, it's quite the opposite. Modern Americans are entirely disconnected from understanding how important their state was to people back then. I'd wager that essentially every American alive today thinks enslaving people is quite distasteful; a much much higher amount have never even thought about whether states should be the ones to decide how they handle things that the federal government currently dictates. My ancestors fought for the North and I probably would have too, but I can understand why the Southern cause was such a tragedy.

Honestly, I think you're being a bit of a sophist trying to rile the forumites up like that. You have to like us a little bit to keep coming back here, why be insulting when you could try swaying people to your side?
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by doodle » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:29 pm

Krieg, slavery was the key issue which moved the southern states to secede. It is disingenuous to pretend like it didn't play a central part in the war. And Xan, Whether it would have fallen of its own accord is irrelevant to the fact that the Confederacy was seeking to preserve the institution as well as expand it's reach into western territories.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by moda0306 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:32 pm

Xan wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:01 pm
pmward wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:33 pm
I agree, the whole "state government" thing was just a convenient better sounding BS argument that they could use to rationalize the true reason they went to war. They wanted states to have power because their state would allow them to continue to pursue their selfish dehumanizing actions. Americans have always been selfish to a fault. Things still haven't changed in this regard, even 160 years later.
It was the North that started the war, with no legal basis and for no reason other than to preserve tax revenues.

Slavery was on the way out globally. It would have ended in the US within a generation (I think the last was Brazil in 1888 or some such). An organic, peaceful end to slavery would have led to a much better outcome for everyone than what we got.

The whole "state government thing" is the way this country was designed. The North didn't give any more poops about black people than anyone else, but they did use the war to perform a revolution, centralizing all power in the federal government.
The North, to the degree we can collectivize the government and people into a blob and give them collective interests, didn't care much about slavery. But the South sure did...

https://www.battlefields.org/learn/prim ... ing-states

Nary a mention of taxes or tariffs...

The word slave, in all its derivations, is listed 83 times.

Texas' detail is particularly pertinent...

"She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time."

Slavery was not "on its way out" in the South. That's revisionist history garbage.

https://studycivilwar.wordpress.com/201 ... e-way-out/

They were absolutely chomping at the bit to expand it to the west & Caribbean, and saw the federal government as a hindrance to that.

Regardless of how one feels about the US Government, or its soldiers, at this time (I certainly am not going to die on the hill of their greatness at all), the Confederate government, and all symbols of it (conveniently revived at certain times in history when blacks started getting a little too uppity) should be utterly reviled as a structure with the express purpose of defending the institution of slavery for the capital class in the South.

Of course some soldiers on both sides fought bravely. You throw men into a meat grinder and some great acts of heroism will result. But both imperialistic governments should probably be looked at with little more than contempt, with that of the South pure disdain as it was organized for a purely malevolent purpose. And, like the Union, they usurped states rights, Habeas Corpus, and engaged in conscription of poor Southern whites.

Of course the individual plight of every individual soldier is a tragedy. That's what we get when we allow the capital class to throw us into meat grinders to defend their property and tax cattle. We shouldn't fly the very symbols of our oppressors and pretend its a symbol of freedom or liberation.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:35 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:29 pm
Krieg, slavery was the key issue which moved the southern states to secede. It is disingenuous to pretend like it didn't play a central part in the war. And Xan, Whether it would have fallen of its own accord is irrelevant to the fact that the Confederacy was seeking to preserve the institution as well as expand it's reach into western territories.
The good news is you have apparently had access to history books. They weren’t all destroyed by “the self-proclaiming righteous thugs” in an attempt to rewrite history to conform to a current narrative. ::)
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by stuper1 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:07 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:14 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:06 pm
I think you give African American teenagers less respect than they deserve. They can understand fighting for what you believe in and protecting your family. They can also understand that what people believe to be right can evolve over time.
As I said...people can rationalize anything. I'm shocked that you can even believe the bullshit that you just wrote...when what you "believe in" is the dehumanization, objectification, murder, rape and torture of an entire race of people. Seriously shocked the lengths that some people will go to defend this legacy.
How many of those Confederate soldiers that died were slave owners? I have no idea actually, but I would imagine it was a minuscule percentage. So, what were they fighting for? They were fighting for their family and country. At that time, their country was Virginia or Georgia or whatever state they came from. That was their country. That was what they were fighting for.

I don't believe in slavery any more than you do, but feel free to keep reading my mind if you are so good at it.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by stuper1 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:10 pm

pmward wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:33 pm
doodle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:19 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:04 pm
Ok, but be careful what you wish for. What you're wishing for is basically a Hunger Games type government, centralized thousands of miles away and not listening at all to local concerns. I hope I got my movie analogy close to correct, because truthfully I only ever sat through half of the first Hunger Games movie.

Anywho, what the Confederates fought for was self determination via their state government, which they took to be their sovereign government at that time.
Let's be real, it was about slavery. You can couch it in whatever political science legalese you like....it was about having the freedom to own and subjegate human beings
I agree, the whole "state government" thing was just a convenient better sounding BS argument that they could use to rationalize the true reason they went to war. They wanted states to have power because their state would allow them to continue to pursue their selfish dehumanizing actions. Americans have always been selfish to a fault. Things still haven't changed in this regard, even 160 years later.
Every human being is selfish. That's the constant throughout history. Do you think Americans have a monopoly on selfishness? By the way, America didn't invent slavery. It was practiced quite widely throughout the world for most of history, including in Africa. If anything, white people should be thanked for ending slavery.
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by pmward » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:53 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:10 pm
pmward wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:33 pm
doodle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:19 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:04 pm
Ok, but be careful what you wish for. What you're wishing for is basically a Hunger Games type government, centralized thousands of miles away and not listening at all to local concerns. I hope I got my movie analogy close to correct, because truthfully I only ever sat through half of the first Hunger Games movie.

Anywho, what the Confederates fought for was self determination via their state government, which they took to be their sovereign government at that time.
Let's be real, it was about slavery. You can couch it in whatever political science legalese you like....it was about having the freedom to own and subjegate human beings
I agree, the whole "state government" thing was just a convenient better sounding BS argument that they could use to rationalize the true reason they went to war. They wanted states to have power because their state would allow them to continue to pursue their selfish dehumanizing actions. Americans have always been selfish to a fault. Things still haven't changed in this regard, even 160 years later.
Every human being is selfish. That's the constant throughout history. Do you think Americans have a monopoly on selfishness? By the way, America didn't invent slavery. It was practiced quite widely throughout the world for most of history, including in Africa. If anything, white people should be thanked for ending slavery.
Just because everyone else did it, and just because everyone else is selfish, does this make it right? Are any other countries still celebrating and enshrining the famous slavers of their grim pasts? No. So why are we?
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by vnatale » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:06 pm

Xan wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:01 pm
pmward wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:33 pm
I agree, the whole "state government" thing was just a convenient better sounding BS argument that they could use to rationalize the true reason they went to war. They wanted states to have power because their state would allow them to continue to pursue their selfish dehumanizing actions. Americans have always been selfish to a fault. Things still haven't changed in this regard, even 160 years later.
It was the North that started the war, with no legal basis and for no reason other than to preserve tax revenues.

Slavery was on the way out globally. It would have ended in the US within a generation (I think the last was Brazil in 1888 or some such). An organic, peaceful end to slavery would have led to a much better outcome for everyone than what we got.

The whole "state government thing" is the way this country was designed. The North didn't give any more poops about black people than anyone else, but they did use the war to perform a revolution, centralizing all power in the federal government.
How do you define the North as starting the war. It was NOT started with the South bombing Fort Sumter?

"Fort Sumter is a sea fort in Charleston, South Carolina, notable for two battles, the first of which signified the start of the American Civil War."

Vinny
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by vnatale » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:06 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:19 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:04 pm
Ok, but be careful what you wish for. What you're wishing for is basically a Hunger Games type government, centralized thousands of miles away and not listening at all to local concerns. I hope I got my movie analogy close to correct, because truthfully I only ever sat through half of the first Hunger Games movie.

Anywho, what the Confederates fought for was self determination via their state government, which they took to be their sovereign government at that time.
Let's be real, it was about slavery. You can couch it in whatever political science legalese you like....it was about having the freedom to own and subjegate human beings
100% in agreement with this.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: GOP defending Confederate legacy?

Post by stuper1 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:10 pm

pmward wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:53 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:10 pm
pmward wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:33 pm
doodle wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:19 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:04 pm
Ok, but be careful what you wish for. What you're wishing for is basically a Hunger Games type government, centralized thousands of miles away and not listening at all to local concerns. I hope I got my movie analogy close to correct, because truthfully I only ever sat through half of the first Hunger Games movie.

Anywho, what the Confederates fought for was self determination via their state government, which they took to be their sovereign government at that time.
Let's be real, it was about slavery. You can couch it in whatever political science legalese you like....it was about having the freedom to own and subjegate human beings
I agree, the whole "state government" thing was just a convenient better sounding BS argument that they could use to rationalize the true reason they went to war. They wanted states to have power because their state would allow them to continue to pursue their selfish dehumanizing actions. Americans have always been selfish to a fault. Things still haven't changed in this regard, even 160 years later.
Every human being is selfish. That's the constant throughout history. Do you think Americans have a monopoly on selfishness? By the way, America didn't invent slavery. It was practiced quite widely throughout the world for most of history, including in Africa. If anything, white people should be thanked for ending slavery.
Just because everyone else did it, and just because everyone else is selfish, does this make it right? Are any other countries still celebrating and enshrining the famous slavers of their grim pasts? No. So why are we?
Do you have any understanding of human nature? Are you aware that people are full of contradictions? We have statues of people that were considered honorable at the time they lived. Does that mean they were perfect?

George Washington owned slaves. Is his statue coming down next and we're renaming Washington DC to George Floyd DX and renaming the Washington Monument to whatever? If that's what they want, it doesn't really bother me, but they should be consistent at least.

While we're at it, we should be sure to destroy the Jefferson Memorial because he owned slaves and the Lincoln Memorial because he thought blacks were lesser beings than whites.

And let's be sure to just do all this as mob rule. We don't need any rule of law or due process or anything like that. In other words, let's just go back to the jungle. We don't need civilization.

When we find out something bad about Martin Luther King Jr let's be ready to take his monument down too.
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