GOP defending Confederate legacy?

[WiseOne]

i am surprised the MSM hasn't chosen to rename themselves the "ministry of truth". to counteract trumps calling them fake news, especially now that they are supporting the rewriting of history...

Good one, Simon. It is so eerie how "1984" is coming to life all around us.

I'd say that the guys pulling down statues are doing it for exactly the same reason that they looted stores and broke windows: it felt good at the time and they're lashing out because they're frustrated and angry at the world in general. It's not because they want to make the world a better place. Saying that they're right because item X might offend them is just kinda silly. First of all, there's no rule that says the world has to make you happy and content. Second, every cultural object that exists probably offends someone, and eliminating them all wouldn't leave us with much.

did you see the Fahrenheit 451 quote i posted earlier in the thread ?
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10805&start=48#p198921

[Lonestar]

Good one, Simon. It is so eerie how "1984" is coming to life all around us.

I'd say that the guys pulling down statues are doing it for exactly the same reason that they looted stores and broke windows: it felt good at the time and they're lashing out because they're frustrated and angry at the world in general. It's not because they want to make the world a better place. Saying that they're right because item X might offend them is just kinda silly. First of all, there's no rule that says the world has to make you happy and content. Second, every cultural object that exists probably offends someone, and eliminating them all wouldn't leave us with much.

WiseOne,

There is no doubt, as evidenced by their actions, they are frustrated and angry. However, is it possible that they have actually been lulled into thinking that what they are doing, as in destroying monuments, will actually "make the world a better place"?

If we discount the semi-professional rioters and looters, there may actually be some who think that tearing down statues and setting fire to memorials will influence how others feel about future change. I doubt they came up with this on their own, but probably bought into an idea someone was selling.

As I mentioned in a post above, it may no longer serve any purpose to actually name any monument or building after a person without offending someone.

[Mark Leavy]

As I mentioned in a post above, it may no longer serve any purpose to actually name any monument or building after a person without offending someone.

I have this constant conflict in my head. As much as I go through my day wondering "Are all young people idiots?", sometimes at night I wonder "What if they are right?".

[vnatale]

As I mentioned in a post above, it may no longer serve any purpose to actually name any monument or building after a person without offending someone.

I have this constant conflict in my head. As much as I go through my day wondering "Are all young people idiots?", sometimes at night I wonder "What if they are right?".

How often / how frequent is your contact with young people?

Vinny

[Mark Leavy]

I have this constant conflict in my head. As much as I go through my day wondering "Are all young people idiots?", sometimes at night I wonder "What if they are right?".

How often / how frequent is your contact with young people?

Vinny

In person, most of the time just conversations with bartenders or service people. But a lot of millennials work at companies where I am part owner and they seem to treat Slack (and other internal company chat systems) as some sort of social media platform - posting pictures of pets, kids, etc. Something I never would have imagined doing in my corporate life. But, that is evidently the way of things now. All pretty decent people, just trying to build a life and raise a family...

[stuper1]

What is it that you wonder whether they are right about?

[Mark Leavy]

What is it that you wonder whether they are right about?

A lot of the social norms that I grew up with just don't seem to apply anymore. I don't buy into it, but I can't discount that the younger folks may have a better handle on the future world than I do. They (supposedly) are thinking of a world 50 and 60 years ahead, while I likely have a much shorter timeframe forward and a longer look back.

For instance, tearing down monuments, public works, etc. strike me as abysmal behavior. And I would bet that the gods of the copybook headings will come back to bite them. But maybe not.

[Xan]

What is it that you wonder whether they are right about?

A lot of the social norms that I grew up with just don't seem to apply anymore. I don't buy into it, but I can't discount that the younger folks may have a better handle on the future world than I do. They (supposedly) are thinking of a world 50 and 60 years ahead, while I likely have a much shorter timeframe forward and a longer look back.

For instance, tearing down monuments, public works, etc. strike me as abysmal behavior. And I would bet that the gods of the copybook headings will come back to bite them. But maybe not.

I was not familiar with that poem, Mark. Thanks for linking to it. It's an instant favorite!

[Libertarian666]

What is it that you wonder whether they are right about?

A lot of the social norms that I grew up with just don't seem to apply anymore. I don't buy into it, but I can't discount that the younger folks may have a better handle on the future world than I do. They (supposedly) are thinking of a world 50 and 60 years ahead, while I likely have a much shorter timeframe forward and a longer look back.

For instance, tearing down monuments, public works, etc. strike me as abysmal behavior. And I would bet that the gods of the copybook headings will come back to bite them. But maybe not.

No, they are not right.
The Gods of the Copybook Headings would indeed come back to bite them if they were to win.
They aren't going to win.

[Mark Leavy]

love the gods of the copy book heading,
your link here is well and appropriately placed..

from my experience with millennial's - over hearing their conversations- i lean towards thinking that they are not likely right about anything, any attempt at communication so peppered with the word "LIKE" that it renders the thought expressed incomprehensible, is probably not clear thinking to begin with..

on the plus side they are trying to have and express thoughts so maybe all is not lost...

It runs the range. I've not completely lost hope for all of mankind. I know some very sharp, creative young men and women - that give me confidence in the future. Obviously, they are a very small percentage, but isn't that the same for every age group? I just hope that they end up being in charge when the time comes.

And, of course, these aren't the folks who are out in the streets protesting and tearing things up. They are quietly building a new and exciting future. With math and hard work and families and too damn many photos of kids and dogs. People like our own Smith man.

i am not really as worried about millennial's as my post might make it seem, i know my sample is horribly narrow, listening to out of work baristas talking about ? ? ? ?... you would have to expect it to be on the bottom end of the range...
i mostly just wanted to goof on the excessive over use of the word LIKE.

[Lonestar]

from my experience with millennial's - over hearing their conversations- i lean towards thinking that they are not likely right about anything, any attempt at communication so peppered with the word "LIKE" that it renders the thought expressed incomprehensible, is probably not clear thinking to begin with..

It runs the range. I've not completely lost hope for all of mankind. I know some very sharp, creative young men and women - that give me confidence in the future. Obviously, they are a very small percentage, but isn't that the same for every age group? I just hope that they end up being in charge when the time comes.

And, of course, these aren't the folks who are out in the streets protesting and tearing things up. They are quietly building a new and exciting future. With math and hard work and families and too damn many photos of kids and dogs. People like our own Smith man.

I'm positive it's not the majority of the young folks that are tearing down monuments, or even for that matter protesting. I do feel they support respect for all races, and want to see everyone treated equal. What concerns me is the small segment of this age group that we have seen on the news for the past few weeks appear to be molding the future.

We are seeing government and corporate America folding to their demands. It's much like the small ultra liberal segment of the Democratic party demanding radical change, and highly influencing the party as a whole.

[Xan]

"The Eyes of Texas" - a beloved tradition at the University of Texas, sung for over 100 years at occasions as solemn as funerals and as joyous as national championships. After every game, the athletes turn to the fans and everybody sings the song. Here's a picture:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... seball.JPG

Here are the lyrics (the tune is "I've Been Working on the Railroad"):

The Eyes of Texas are upon you,
All the livelong day.
The Eyes of Texas are upon you,
You cannot get away.
Do not think you can escape them
At night or early in the morn --
The Eyes of Texas are upon you
Til Gabriel blows his horn.

Now it's on the ropes. I thought at first it was because of the reference to the trumpet signaling the End Times. No... It's because it's "racist"!

The song was inspired by the University president at the time who was fond of saying "The eyes of Texas are upon you". He had attended Washington and Lee University, whose president Robert E Lee used to say "The eyes of the South are upon you". Strike one.

The UT student who wrote the song based on the president's phrase was part of a fundraising group which put on a minstrel show. The song was written for that show. Strike two.

Does this mean that everything with the remotest connection to General Lee must be expunged? And that anything that was ever performed in blackface has to disappear?

[Xan]

Now the SEC (of all things!) is demanding that Mississippi change its flag or else they won't be able to host big tournaments or some such.

It may well be that nobody at the SEC office is well-versed in vexillology, because although only Mississippi directly bears the Confederate battle emblem anymore, plenty of other states' flags are descended from Confederate flags:

* Alabama
* Florida
* Georgia
* Arkansas

Tennessee and North Carolina have designs with a similar "feel" but don't seem to have explicit descent.

Will all these flags need to change too? Isn't that most of the SEC?

[doodle]

Now the SEC (of all things!) is demanding that Mississippi change its flag or else they won't be able to host big tournaments or some such.

It may well be that nobody at the SEC office is well-versed in vexillology, because although only Mississippi directly bears the Confederate battle emblem anymore, plenty of other states' flags are descended from Confederate flags:

* Alabama
* Florida
* Georgia
* Arkansas

Tennessee and North Carolina have designs with a similar "feel" but don't seem to have explicit descent.

Will all these flags need to change too? Isn't that most of the SEC?

Is it ever justified to revisit past decisions to amend them given changing cultural environments? Why must past decisions forever become a static part of the future. I would also argue that symbolism matters....if the confederate flag is a symbol of a bygone era that we no longer want to draw attention to moving forward, even if only subconciously, then i can't see any good argument why it shouldnt be retired. Its this part of hanging on to the past come hell or high water conservative mindset that I never understood. Things change, and thats ok.

[pp4me]

Now the SEC (of all things!) is demanding that Mississippi change its flag or else they won't be able to host big tournaments or some such.

It may well be that nobody at the SEC office is well-versed in vexillology, because although only Mississippi directly bears the Confederate battle emblem anymore, plenty of other states' flags are descended from Confederate flags:

* Alabama
* Florida
* Georgia
* Arkansas

Tennessee and North Carolina have designs with a similar "feel" but don't seem to have explicit descent.

Will all these flags need to change too? Isn't that most of the SEC?

Is it ever justified to revisit past decisions to amend them given changing cultural environments? Why must past decisions forever become a static part of the future. I would also argue that symbolism matters....if the confederate flag is a symbol of a bygone era that we no longer want to draw attention to moving forward, even if only subconciously, then i can't see any good argument why it shouldnt be retired. Its this part of hanging on to the past come hell or high water conservative mindset that I never understood. Things change, and thats ok.

What do you think about the statues of Marx and Lenin in Seattle?

[stuper1]

Marx and Lenin were pacifistic figures whose ideas and actions never hurt a flea. Why should anyone care what happens to their statues?

[pp4me]

Marx and Lenin were pacifistic figures whose ideas and actions never hurt a flea. Why should anyone care what happens to their statues?

Not sure if you are being sarcastic or not. Their ideas never hurt a flea?

Tearing down those statues would be a repudiation of communism and all the evil it has caused in the world. Isn't that what tearing down the confederate statues is all about?

[stuper1]

It's an interesting thought experiment: what would happen if the Conservative Club at the University of Washington started a riot and pulled down the statues of Marx and Lenin? I imagine they would get arrested, charged with vandalism, and made to pay restitution and penalties.

However, when Black Lives Matter pull down statues, there are no consequences. Is this because we don't think that black people can be held responsible for their actions? We need to treat them differently than we would treat most people. Isn't that a racist attitude in itself? Seriously, I see way more racism in leftist thought than in rightist thought. Rightists just want people to be judged by how they behave not on the color of their skin.

[doodle]

It's an interesting thought experiment: what would happen if the Conservative Club at the University of Washington started a riot and pulled down the statues of Marx and Lenin? I imagine they would get arrested, charged with vandalism, and made to pay restitution and penalties.

However, when Black Lives Matter pull down statues, there are no consequences. Is this because we don't think that black people can be held responsible for their actions? We need to treat them differently than we would treat most people. Isn't that a racist attitude in itself? Seriously, I see way more racism in leftist thought than in rightist thought. Rightists just want people to be judged by how they behave not on the color of their skin.

Wasn't aware of them. Lenin statue sits on private property apparently....I think that distinction is important. This issue pertains to public institutions. A Lenin statue on public building should be removed due to historical events I believe. In fact I'm starting to wonder now about any statues commemorating specific individuals instead of just artistic expressions. A statue of a particular individual is kind of a weird thing....

[stuper1]

Now, you're getting it. Pull down all the statues. I think Aristotle was the tutor of Alexander the Great, and Alexander had slaves. Therefore, any statue of Aristotle needs to come down. And any books that have Aristotle's ideas in them need to be burned.

[stuper1]

Here's another thought experiment, two sides of the coin. A black guy walks into a gym full of white people. That's one side of the coin. The other side is a white guy walks into a gym full of black people.

Which one of these two people likely subjectively feels more fear in his mind, the black guy walking into the white gym or the white guy walking into the black gym? Of course, this will vary greatly with the individuals, but just on average, which one of these two people is likely to subjectively feel more fear in his mind?

Now, taking out subjective feelings and just going by statistics, which one should objectively feel more fear in his mind? In other words, statistically speaking, is there more white-on-black crime or more black-on-white crime?

I suspect both subjectively and objectively the answers are the same. And yet we are told that we should be worried about white supremacy being a huge problem in this country. In other words, the media is just stirring things up for their own purposes, which are basically to get more click revenue and to please their biggest advertisers.

[doodle]

Here's another thought experiment, two sides of the coin. A black guy walks into a gym full of white people. That's one side of the coin. The other side is a white guy walks into a gym full of black people.

Which one of these two people likely subjectively feels more fear in his mind, the black guy walking into the white gym or the white guy walking into the black gym? Of course, this will vary greatly with the individuals, but just on average, which one of these two people is likely to subjectively feel more fear in his mind?

Now, taking out subjective feelings and just going by statistics, which one should objectively feel more fear in his mind? In other words, statistically speaking, is there more white-on-black crime or more black-on-white crime?

I suspect both subjectively and objectively the answers are the same. And yet we are told that we should be worried about white supremacy being a huge problem in this country. In other words, the media is just stirring things up for their own purposes, which are basically to get more click revenue and to please their biggest advertisers.

Not sure how this thought experiment pertains to the distasteful nature of Confederate statues on public property....

I think there is a distinction between slave owner and person who fought for the preservation of slavery. While our founding fathers might have owned slaves, that was a byproduct of their social times....in the same way that their wives couldn't vote. This is different from someone who actively went to war to preserve and expand the institution of slavery....I think that is important distinction.

[doodle]

I also don't think you can fully appreciate what it's like to grow up in a country that enslaved your people for 400 years, and then discrimated against your people through the law for another 100 years. A country whose monuments and history books are full of positive stories about people that probably raped, murdered, flogged and at the very least subjugated and dehumanized your race and culture. I don't think you have any idea what it must feel like to be raised in those circumstances and the psychological effects it must have on your development

[stuper1]

99% of the guys who fought and died for the Confederacy never owned or even talked to a slave in their entire life. So why do you think they fought to preserve slavery? They didn't. What they fought for was their country. Just like the guys we honor who died in lots of other wars. And now you're telling me that these people who fought for their country but never owned a slave are bad, but those who actually owned slaves are okay. That seems odd.

[stuper1]

I also don't think you can fully appreciate what it's like to grow up in a country that enslaved your people for 400 years, and then discrimated against your people through the law for another 100 years. A country whose monuments and history books are full of positive stories about people that probably raped, murdered, flogged and at the very least subjugated and dehumanized your race and culture. I don't think you have any idea what it must feel like to be raised in those circumstances and the psychological effects it must have on your development

Can you appreciate what it feels like to know that you are descended from brutal rapists, murderers, floggers, and dehumanizers? It's very hard to know that my race is uniquely evil, unlike any other race of people who have ever existed. I'm not sure how I can ever make up for that. Oh wait, yes I do. I need to go out and try to do better tomorrow. That's the same thing that black people need to do. If we give them a pass when they act like uncivilized lunatics, guess what? We aren't helping them at all.