J Edgar Hoover already performed that task 50 or so years ago.
Vinny
Moderator: Global Moderator
J Edgar Hoover already performed that task 50 or so years ago.
Well, there are really two issues there. One is slavery, and the other is whether the federal government is going to respect the agreement that was made among the states that created that government.moda0306 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:32 pmThe North, to the degree we can collectivize the government and people into a blob and give them collective interests, didn't care much about slavery. But the South sure did...
https://www.battlefields.org/learn/prim ... ing-states
Nary a mention of taxes or tariffs...
The word slave, in all its derivations, is listed 83 times.
Texas' detail is particularly pertinent...
"She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution, under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time."
This shouldn't have to come down to mob rule. There should be widespread consensus that removing Confederate names and statues from public spaces is the proper thing to do given the sordid history that they represent to a large segment of our population. Slavery was equally as bad as the Nazi crimes during world war 2.....don't see many Goebbels high schools or Hitler monuments over there.stuper1 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:24 pm Seriously, you guys are brain dead if you're going to support mob rule.
If these people want the statues to come down, there's a very simple process to follow. Get a state assembly person to write a bill and get a majority of assembly people to vote for it. Boom, there, done. If you can't get enough votes, then sorry, it's not going to happen. At that point, you have a choice. Stay in Virginia or wherever, or move to a more enlightened place, like maybe Minneapolis or Chicago or Baltimore where the leftist utopia is causing manna to grow on trees.
Doing it by mob rule is not the way to do anything unless you want us to go back to the dark ages.
All my ancestors were in Italy until at least 1900. I've only lived in the North so I have no direct Southern influence or heritage.Kriegsspiel wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:24 pmIMO, it's quite the opposite. Modern Americans are entirely disconnected from understanding how important their state was to people back then. I'd wager that essentially every American alive today thinks enslaving people is quite distasteful; a much much higher amount have never even thought about whether states should be the ones to decide how they handle things that the federal government currently dictates. My ancestors fought for the North and I probably would have too, but I can understand why the Southern cause was such a tragedy.
Honestly, I think you're being a bit of a sophist trying to rile the forumites up like that. You have to like us a little bit to keep coming back here, why be insulting when you could try swaying people to your side?
Is it the same for when that Saddam statue was torn down? Anyone critical of that being done by a mob? Should it have been done by legally sanctioned government action?stuper1 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:24 pm Seriously, you guys are brain dead if you're going to support mob rule.
If these people want the statues to come down, there's a very simple process to follow. Get a state assembly person to write a bill and get a majority of assembly people to vote for it. Boom, there, done. If you can't get enough votes, then sorry, it's not going to happen. At that point, you have a choice. Stay in Virginia or wherever, or move to a more enlightened place, like maybe Minneapolis or Chicago or Baltimore where the leftist utopia is causing manna to grow on trees.
Doing it by mob rule is not the way to do anything unless you want us to go back to the dark ages.
I see this differently. Washington and Jefferson were the founding fathers of our nation. They didn't start a war and secede from the nation because they wanted to preserve the institution of slavery. Like it or not the historical consensus is very clear...the seminal issue of the civil war was slavery. This states rights pertains almost singularly to that issue.stuper1 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:10 pmDo you have any understanding of human nature? Are you aware that people are full of contradictions? We have statues of people that were considered honorable at the time they lived. Does that mean they were perfect?pmward wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:53 pmJust because everyone else did it, and just because everyone else is selfish, does this make it right? Are any other countries still celebrating and enshrining the famous slavers of their grim pasts? No. So why are we?stuper1 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:10 pmEvery human being is selfish. That's the constant throughout history. Do you think Americans have a monopoly on selfishness? By the way, America didn't invent slavery. It was practiced quite widely throughout the world for most of history, including in Africa. If anything, white people should be thanked for ending slavery.pmward wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:33 pmI agree, the whole "state government" thing was just a convenient better sounding BS argument that they could use to rationalize the true reason they went to war. They wanted states to have power because their state would allow them to continue to pursue their selfish dehumanizing actions. Americans have always been selfish to a fault. Things still haven't changed in this regard, even 160 years later.doodle wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:19 pmLet's be real, it was about slavery. You can couch it in whatever political science legalese you like....it was about having the freedom to own and subjegate human beingsstuper1 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 5:04 pm Ok, but be careful what you wish for. What you're wishing for is basically a Hunger Games type government, centralized thousands of miles away and not listening at all to local concerns. I hope I got my movie analogy close to correct, because truthfully I only ever sat through half of the first Hunger Games movie.
Anywho, what the Confederates fought for was self determination via their state government, which they took to be their sovereign government at that time.
George Washington owned slaves. Is his statue coming down next and we're renaming Washington DC to George Floyd DX and renaming the Washington Monument to whatever? If that's what they want, it doesn't really bother me, but they should be consistent at least.
While we're at it, we should be sure to destroy the Jefferson Memorial because he owned slaves and the Lincoln Memorial because he thought blacks were lesser beings than whites.
And let's be sure to just do all this as mob rule. We don't need any rule of law or due process or anything like that. In other words, let's just go back to the jungle. We don't need civilization.
When we find out something bad about Martin Luther King Jr let's be ready to take his monument down too.
But also to this day Neo-Nazi's in Germany use the Confederate flags because it most closely represents the ideology represented by the forever banned Nazi flag. That ideology being one race is superior to another.
Mmmkay, but in that picture they're also (mis)using the Stars and Stripes. And the official flag of the KKK is the Stars and Stripes. Should we can that flag?vnatale wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:56 pmBut also to this day Neo-Nazi's in Germany use the Confederate flags because it most closely represents the ideology represented by the forever banned Nazi flag. That ideology being one race is superior to another.
Even in our country Nazi supporters link the Confederate flag to their cause.
Capture.JPG
Vinny
Not Exactly...vnatale wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 8:44 am Going by memory (most recent readings) and no research...this is what I currently believe (subject to change by any countervailing facts and logic)..
1) Why the South fought the Civil War
100% Slavery
At the time cotton was one of the largest and most lucrative industries in the world. It only viable through the institution of slavery. At the time the country was still expanding and the South wanted the institution to continue to expand as the country expanded.
doodle wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:23 am I think at the root of all of this is that many people don't want to live in a truly 'diverse' society.. I understand that. I know that a great deal of cultural diversity can create tension. But let's be scientific about this and discuss our honest beliefs about the functionality of the American melting pot rather than fighting these proxy wars over civil war statues and Confederate flags. I think a great many people on this forum probably would agree with Jared Taylor from American Renaissance's perspective on race relations namely that they don't want to live in a country where they (white men) are the racial minority or their western European culture takes a backseat or has to share the stage with other cultures.
Simonjester wrote:
good video..
I'm the son of an Italian immigrant father with all grand parents also Italian immigrants. I grew up in a section of Rhode Island that was heavy first or second generation immigrant families. In our daily lives there was little to no reference to our Italian heritage. Instead, we were all brought up by parents who they themselves or whose parents had come here for the American Dream and we were brought up to be Americans. Same as the Irish kids. The Jewish kids. The Armenian kids. The Greek kids.doodle wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:23 am I think at the root of all of this is that many people don't want to live in a truly 'diverse' society.. I understand that. I know that a great deal of cultural diversity can create tension. But let's be scientific about this and discuss our honest beliefs about the functionality of the American melting pot rather than fighting these proxy wars over civil war statues and Confederate flags. I think a great many people on this forum probably would agree with Jared Taylor from American Renaissance's perspective on race relations namely that they don't want to live in a country where they (white men) are the racial minority or their western European culture takes a backseat or has to share the stage with other cultures.
Well, what do you expect from a party that was once in favor of high levels of arsenic in drinking water and throwing grandma off a cliff?doodle wrote: ↑Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:33 pm How ironic that the Republican party of Lincoln is currently so adamant about defending the Confederate legacy....politics is strange.
The problem with being a rational creature is that one can rationalize anything...so I'm fully prepared to hear a million reasons why this makes logical sense.
I'm going to pick a couple countries at random to make a very simple point. Let's say that a guy is born in say Spain, grows up there, and still lives there. He is Spanish through and through. He likes Spanish culture. He's never really known anything else. Then, over time a bunch of people start coming to live in Spain from say Korea. Maybe a whole bunch of them move to the town where the first guy lives. Nobody asked him if he wanted to live next to a bunch of foreigners. Is it surprising that he wouldn't like that? Does that make him a racist? Maybe he loves to go to other countries, even Korea, to experience their cultures and expand his thinking. However, when he gets home, he wants to live in Spanish culture. Is he a bigot?doodle wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:23 am I think at the root of all of this is that many people don't want to live in a truly 'diverse' society.. I understand that. I know that a great deal of cultural diversity can create tension. But let's be scientific about this and discuss our honest beliefs about the functionality of the American melting pot rather than fighting these proxy wars over civil war statues and Confederate flags. I think a great many people on this forum probably would agree with Jared Taylor from American Renaissance's perspective on race relations namely that they don't want to live in a country where they (white men) are the racial minority or their western European culture takes a backseat or has to share the stage with other cultures.
Fair enough. The problem with the United States though given this particular view is that much of it was built on the backs of immigrant and slave labor. So unlike many of the racially pure countries of the world, our foundation was a nation of great diversity. Of course there were many indentured white slaves as well at one time but given the color of their skin they could at least at some future point move into a position of assimilation. So looking at the reality of where we are now, how does one deal with the fact that more than 40 million Americans have to live in a society which glorifies the legacy of past generals and war heros who were fighting to maintain a system which brutalized and raped these people of their human dignity? This is an issue that I don't think you as part of the racial majority can understand...at least not viscerally. And yes, this won't solve racial tension, but it's at least a step in the right direction.stuper1 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 4:14 pmI'm going to pick a couple countries at random to make a very simple point. Let's say that a guy is born in say Spain, grows up there, and still lives there. He is Spanish through and through. He likes Spanish culture. He's never really known anything else. Then, over time a bunch of people start coming to live in Spain from say Korea. Maybe a whole bunch of them move to the town where the first guy lives. Nobody asked him if he wanted to live next to a bunch of foreigners. Is it surprising that he wouldn't like that? Does that make him a racist? Maybe he loves to go to other countries, even Korea, to experience their cultures and expand his thinking. However, when he gets home, he wants to live in Spanish culture. Is he a bigot?doodle wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 9:23 am I think at the root of all of this is that many people don't want to live in a truly 'diverse' society.. I understand that. I know that a great deal of cultural diversity can create tension. But let's be scientific about this and discuss our honest beliefs about the functionality of the American melting pot rather than fighting these proxy wars over civil war statues and Confederate flags. I think a great many people on this forum probably would agree with Jared Taylor from American Renaissance's perspective on race relations namely that they don't want to live in a country where they (white men) are the racial minority or their western European culture takes a backseat or has to share the stage with other cultures.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that just because people like the familiar doesn't mean that they are full of racial hatred. White people have built some wonderful societies. The fact that they are comfortable in those societies and want to maintain those societies is not surprising. When a bunch of people from another culture start moving in, and things start changing, it's not a surprise that the first people don't like it. Does that make them racists or bigots? No, it just means they like what they have built and what they are used to.
Simonjester wrote:and liberal democratic government policy's, especially in big city's...
lonestars post below is worth considering for anyone who wants to Fahrenheit 451 our pastfrom the book Fahrenheit 451Lonestar wrote: ↑Sat Jun 13, 2020 5:10 pm So, am I to understand that as soon as we burn all existing Confederate flags, tear down all civil war statues, rename all schools relating to civil war heroes, things will be instantly better? Apparently, we will feel better about ourselves for trying to cover up things of the past that should have never, never happened.
What is all this going to do to promote a truly diverse society and relieve systemic racism? Will it improve the educational system? Will it bring back jobs to the oppressed and poverty stricken in our country. Will it strengthen the family units to promote the presence of a father and mother to raise responsible children? Will race relations in general improve quickly? These are the issues that will change the country! How long after the past is erased will I have to wait to see an overall improvement? Maybe reparation checks are the answer.
"Beatty explains that it’s normal for a fireman to go through a phase of wondering what books have to offer, and he delivers a dizzying monologue explaining how books came to be banned in the first place. According to Beatty, special-interest groups and other “minorities” objected to books that offended them. Soon, books all began to look the same, as writers tried to avoid offending anybody. This was not enough, however, and society as a whole decided to simply burn books rather than permit conflicting opinions."
Agreed, but that doesn't mean it still isn't the proper thing to do. When a group of people feels marginalized by the larger dominant society then I think it causes a backlash that isn't beneficial for either group. The United States has gained a lot from our diversity, but it has also come with many challenges. The wounds of slavery and segregation and systemic racism that existed quite extensively in much of the southern United States up until the 80s are still raw. This is also impacted by an extreme amount of wealth disparity. I don't have answers, only that I acknowledge that we have a lot of work ahead of us regarding how to address these issues. To merely try to stomp this movement out will lead to even greater resentment and problems. We need to have some earnest conversations. A lot of white America seems to want no part of this diversity , how does one fold these diverse views into one unified nation?