Being supportive of rioters

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moda0306
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by moda0306 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:49 pm

Gas canister shot at the head of an unarmed man.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jusalotofpai ... 96768?s=21

Old man in a cane not walking fast enough away from riot cops knocked down...

https://www.facebook.com/1173720521/pos ... 986150752/?

Police union attorney talks about shooting protestors...

http://www.calbar.ca.gov/Public/Complaints-Claims

Casually pepper spraying a journalist on the ground...

Wrong link...

https://www.facebook.com/10605968/posts ... 17927/?d=n

Police in the initial minutes of a curfew shooting non-lethal rounds at women on their front porch...

https://www.facebook.com/24697673550836 ... /?vh=e&d=n

Minneapolis cops abandoning their city to encircle the fucking murderer’s house to defend him...

https://www.facebook.com/94136210591581 ... 40094/?d=n

There’s more. There’s so much goddamn more.

Fuck the Police.
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by Xan » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:57 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:55 pm
We all had an opportunity to go to really good schools, and live in great neighborhoods.

I don't think most of us have any concept of living in neighborhoods like some of the ones where we are seeing the riots. Of going to shitty schools. Of being in fear of gangs.
Here's the thing about the "blame the bad neighborhoods they have to live in" theory: what primarily determines a "good" or "bad" neighborhood is the behavior of the neighbors. Same for the local public school: it's "good" or "bad" primarily based on the behavior of the students and parents.

So yes, you could pick an individual person and say "here's the problem with this guy: he had to grow up in that neighborhood. If he'd lived in a better neighborhood he'd have been just fine". That may well be true.

But at the group level, that doesn't make sense. Saying it boils down to "Black people are having these problems because they have to live near other black people, and you know what trouble THEY are." ...Okay, but why is THAT, then?
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by stuper1 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:27 pm

Lots of people want to make excuses for the poor minorities who can't help their thuggish behavior due to their disadvantaged upbringing.

Doesn't seem like many people want to make excuses for the poor policeman who chooses thuggish behavior due to having to deal with thuggish people frequently.

Which side of the story gets more airplay by the media?

I can predict some unintended economic consequences. Police won't want to work in certain parts of cities. Harder to recruit good cops; easier to recruit bad cops; this will lead to even more thuggish police behavior. Solid businesses won't want to be located in certain parts of cities. Those parts of cities will have worse levels of business and police services and will continue their slide downhill. But you can't expect short-sighted people like those in journalism and looters to think about things like this.
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:49 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:42 pm
More important than decrying the behavior of individuals is ultimately what the local, state and federal governments should do...

As a resident very near Mpls, I'd like to see that corrupt police department taken apart like a failed lego project... and while I hate most of the destruction and looting, but hating something isn't a course of action but just an instinct. I love the peaceful protesting, and watching the 3rd Precinct burn was a thing of beauty.

I do agree the National Guard probably needed to be called in... mostly because they're extremely professional, unlike these terrible police departments. If anything, they're to keep the police at bay as much as the destructive wing of the protestors.

The riot police are committing terrible abuse against peaceful protesters around this country in droves. I hope every one of them is fired and arrested for whatever appropriate charges would be filed if a civilian did the same thing.

I generally disagree with bringing in the military, but, once again, think they'd remain far-more professional than these thuggish police forces.


And on a longer-term note, what's most important is reform of these police departments. They're a scourge on our country and should be shattered into a thousand pieces.
By now you are aware that the Minnesota governor and lieutenant government announced an investigation into the practices of the Minneaplolis (?) police department.

Hard for me to reconcile of this with Minnesota for me since prior what would predominantly always first come to me when thinking of Minnesota would be the Minnesota Twins.

Vinny
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:56 pm

drumminj wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:06 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:55 pm
tech, especially, but all,

I grew up in a working class family, dad was a mechanic, mom was a housewife, our grandparents lived with us. My parents were 1st generation immigrants.

My brother and I both graduated college. He is a Dr, I am an engineer. All our kids will have degrees and some with advanced degrees.

We all had an opportunity to go to really good schools, and live in great neighborhoods.

I don't think most of us have any concept of living in neighborhoods like some of the ones where we are seeing the riots. Of going to shitty schools. Of being in fear of gangs. I cannot even imagine it.
My father grew up in a two room house with dirt floors in the rural south (at least this is what I was told - I've not seen it). Assuming that is in fact true, he was able to start there, yet got a college degree and was successful enough to put my brother an I through college so we could do the same (and now we're both financially secure in our own way at mid-life).

Sure, we had opportunity, but it's clear that my grandparents and my father worked to create opportunities for themselves and for us. They weren't born into it. It required work and effort to overcome the circumstances they started in.

Can I relate to the circumstances you describe above? No. But I suspect my father could in many ways, as could his parents, and rather than loot and riot and claim the rest of the world owed them fancy things (well, maybe there's a side of the story I haven't heard :) ) instead they took advantage of the opportunities in our country.

Do you not believe that's an option for folks today? From my perspective, there is plenty of opportunity out there for one to apply themselves and get ahead, work hard and be successful. In fact I'd posit it's easier today, as there are so many ways to succeed that don't require "working your way up the ranks", where one might theoretically encounter negative bias.
Presumably you are white like myself?

People many times make a reference to "white privilege". I think it should be better stated as "black penalty".

My father came from Italy at the age of 13 speaking no English. Because of that it took him until 21 years old to graduate high school. But along the way he got a job with the local electric company and, with a lot of overtime, was making probably the equivalent of $80,000 today.

About 25 years before he came to this country there was extreme prejudice in this country against Italians. Around that time, in some areas of the country they were considered on the same level as Afro-Americans. And, to parallel that there was a one time mass lynching of Italians. In response to that and to somewhat mollify / appease Italy President McKinley created Columbus Day. It was supposed to have been a one-time event but it has lived on.

A lot of people have not had their way paved to success. But for almost forever being black in American means you are starting several steps behind someone who is white.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by drumminj » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:37 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:56 pm
Presumably you are white like myself?

People many times make a reference to "white privilege". I think it should be better stated as "black penalty".

<snip...>

Yes, I am "white" (IMO this is such a large bucket these days).

A lot of people have not had their way paved to success. But for almost forever being black in American means you are starting several steps behind someone who is white.

Vinny
I'm not sure I follow your statement. Why/how is that so?

As you mention, there are/have been many minorities in this country, many that have effectively been slaves (chinese during the early times of railroads) or discriminated against (italians, irish, etc), or simply people who have been poor, lived in bad neighborhoods, economically depressed areas, etc.

For most, you don't see systemic failures to overcome those circumstances. I'm not convinced it's because the system (or the "white man") is keeping blacks down.

If you had a sample of 1000 asians and 1000 blacks in america who did the "same things", and you saw statistically different outcomes, then maybe we have something, but I don't see that as the argument being put forward.

At some point, as mentioned by others above, you need to look at individual and community decisions, cultures, and family. The "system" certainly isn't fair, and it's biased in all kinds of ways, to be sure (right now there's a heavy pro-female bias in tech, for example). But I don't believe the system is the issue after all this time.
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:56 pm

drumminj wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:37 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:56 pm
Presumably you are white like myself?

People many times make a reference to "white privilege". I think it should be better stated as "black penalty".

<snip...>

Yes, I am "white" (IMO this is such a large bucket these days).

A lot of people have not had their way paved to success. But for almost forever being black in American means you are starting several steps behind someone who is white.

Vinny
I'm not sure I follow your statement. Why/how is that so?

As you mention, there are/have been many minorities in this country, many that have effectively been slaves (chinese during the early times of railroads) or discriminated against (italians, irish, etc), or simply people who have been poor, lived in bad neighborhoods, economically depressed areas, etc.

For most, you don't see systemic failures to overcome those circumstances. I'm not convinced it's because the system (or the "white man") is keeping blacks down.

If you had a sample of 1000 asians and 1000 blacks in america who did the "same things", and you saw statistically different outcomes, then maybe we have something, but I don't see that as the argument being put forward.

At some point, as mentioned by others above, you need to look at individual and community decisions, cultures, and family. The "system" certainly isn't fair, and it's biased in all kinds of ways, to be sure (right now there's a heavy pro-female bias in tech, for example). But I don't believe the system is the issue after all this time.
Personal anecdote.

I was 19 years old in 1970. I was working with a black guy a few years older than me. We hit it off because of a mutual love for sports and music. I invited him to come to my house to watch the baseball All Star game on our color TV (a big deal back then).

When I brought him home I saw that my father's boss and wife were visiting. I introduced him to my father and his boss. They both seem to genuinely shake his hand. I was somewhat shocked at how well this was going as this was the first time a black person had ever been in the presence of me and anyone in my family.

We were watching the game when all of a sudden I hear my mother babbling to my father in the kitchen. I said to myself, "This better not be." My father calls me into the kitchen and asks me, "What is he, Puerto Rican?" He then told me that they wanted to watch something else and that he and my friend could go to the basement to watch the game on my black and white TV.

I was absolutely livid. To my friend, it was no big deal. It was a common experience for him. I told him we could not stay in that house.

I then called my brother-in-law and sister (about six years older than me) and told them this was 105 years after the freeing of the slaves and my parents treat him like that? I told them I could not live in the same house as people like that.

Did anything like that ever happen to any of my other friends who I brought to our house?

Things have improved since then but a black person is still not on an equal level to a white person. How many non-white groups are there that consciously hate white people and therefore will not give them an equal opportunity?

I've had tiny tastes of what it is like to be black.

When I was young and had long hair I was: 1) told I could have the job but I'd have to cut my job (to do a factory job) 2) stopped by the police because I had long hair. My hair could easily be changed and I would have avoided both those situations. A black person cannot change skin color.

Now I'm one of the old guys who plays basketball with guys significantly younger than me (some as many as 50 years younger). I'm wide open, they look at me, and then they look elsewhere to pass the ball. It's like they are looking at me but I don't exist. I said, "This is just like it must be to be black. You get looked at or treated like you don't exist." One night I discussed this with a young Puerto Rican guy who could look Afro-African. His response was, "That plus you get treated differently."

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:25 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:56 pm
drumminj wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:37 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:56 pm
Presumably you are white like myself?

People many times make a reference to "white privilege". I think it should be better stated as "black penalty".

<snip...>

Yes, I am "white" (IMO this is such a large bucket these days).

A lot of people have not had their way paved to success. But for almost forever being black in American means you are starting several steps behind someone who is white.

Vinny
I'm not sure I follow your statement. Why/how is that so?

As you mention, there are/have been many minorities in this country, many that have effectively been slaves (chinese during the early times of railroads) or discriminated against (italians, irish, etc), or simply people who have been poor, lived in bad neighborhoods, economically depressed areas, etc.

For most, you don't see systemic failures to overcome those circumstances. I'm not convinced it's because the system (or the "white man") is keeping blacks down.

If you had a sample of 1000 asians and 1000 blacks in america who did the "same things", and you saw statistically different outcomes, then maybe we have something, but I don't see that as the argument being put forward.

At some point, as mentioned by others above, you need to look at individual and community decisions, cultures, and family. The "system" certainly isn't fair, and it's biased in all kinds of ways, to be sure (right now there's a heavy pro-female bias in tech, for example). But I don't believe the system is the issue after all this time.
Personal anecdote.

I was 19 years old in 1970. I was working with a black guy a few years older than me. We hit it off because of a mutual love for sports and music. I invited him to come to my house to watch the baseball All Star game on our color TV (a big deal back then).

When I brought him home I saw that my father's boss and wife were visiting. I introduced him to my father and his boss. They both seem to genuinely shake his hand. I was somewhat shocked at how well this was going as this was the first time a black person had ever been in the presence of me and anyone in my family.

We were watching the game when all of a sudden I hear my mother babbling to my father in the kitchen. I said to myself, "This better not be." My father calls me into the kitchen and asks me, "What is he, Puerto Rican?" He then told me that they wanted to watch something else and that he and my friend could go to the basement to watch the game on my black and white TV.

I was absolutely livid. To my friend, it was no big deal. It was a common experience for him. I told him we could not stay in that house.

I then called my brother-in-law and sister (about six years older than me) and told them this was 105 years after the freeing of the slaves and my parents treat him like that? I told them I could not live in the same house as people like that.

Did anything like that ever happen to any of my other friends who I brought to our house?

Things have improved since then but a black person is still not on an equal level to a white person. How many non-white groups are there that consciously hate white people and therefore will not give them an equal opportunity?

I've had tiny tastes of what it is like to be black.

When I was young and had long hair I was: 1) told I could have the job but I'd have to cut my job (to do a factory job) 2) stopped by the police because I had long hair. My hair could easily be changed and I would have avoided both those situations. A black person cannot change skin color.

Now I'm one of the old guys who plays basketball with guys significantly younger than me (some as many as 50 years younger). I'm wide open, they look at me, and then they look elsewhere to pass the ball. It's like they are looking at me but I don't exist. I said, "This is just like it must be to be black. You get looked at or treated like you don't exist." One night I discussed this with a young Puerto Rican guy who could look Afro-African. His response was, "That plus you get treated differently."

Vinny
Vinny, your story is the story of the world.

When I was 19 I drove a couple of hot young Mexican gals from La Rumorosa to Mexicali to go skating. I was the only güero in the place. With the best looking gals. I was lucky to get out alive.

Try going to China. Or a remote Hawaiian village. Or Kyoto. Or East Texas.
If you're not from the local tribe, you had better watch your P's and Q's. And say yes'm and thank you.

It's the way of the world Vinny. BTW, when was the last time you were in Sicily? Last time I was there, they destroyed my steak and I said, No worries, I like it this way...
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:56 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:25 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:56 pm
drumminj wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:37 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:56 pm
Presumably you are white like myself?

People many times make a reference to "white privilege". I think it should be better stated as "black penalty".

<snip...>

Yes, I am "white" (IMO this is such a large bucket these days).

A lot of people have not had their way paved to success. But for almost forever being black in American means you are starting several steps behind someone who is white.

Vinny
I'm not sure I follow your statement. Why/how is that so?

As you mention, there are/have been many minorities in this country, many that have effectively been slaves (chinese during the early times of railroads) or discriminated against (italians, irish, etc), or simply people who have been poor, lived in bad neighborhoods, economically depressed areas, etc.

For most, you don't see systemic failures to overcome those circumstances. I'm not convinced it's because the system (or the "white man") is keeping blacks down.

If you had a sample of 1000 asians and 1000 blacks in america who did the "same things", and you saw statistically different outcomes, then maybe we have something, but I don't see that as the argument being put forward.

At some point, as mentioned by others above, you need to look at individual and community decisions, cultures, and family. The "system" certainly isn't fair, and it's biased in all kinds of ways, to be sure (right now there's a heavy pro-female bias in tech, for example). But I don't believe the system is the issue after all this time.
Personal anecdote.

I was 19 years old in 1970. I was working with a black guy a few years older than me. We hit it off because of a mutual love for sports and music. I invited him to come to my house to watch the baseball All Star game on our color TV (a big deal back then).

When I brought him home I saw that my father's boss and wife were visiting. I introduced him to my father and his boss. They both seem to genuinely shake his hand. I was somewhat shocked at how well this was going as this was the first time a black person had ever been in the presence of me and anyone in my family.

We were watching the game when all of a sudden I hear my mother babbling to my father in the kitchen. I said to myself, "This better not be." My father calls me into the kitchen and asks me, "What is he, Puerto Rican?" He then told me that they wanted to watch something else and that he and my friend could go to the basement to watch the game on my black and white TV.

I was absolutely livid. To my friend, it was no big deal. It was a common experience for him. I told him we could not stay in that house.

I then called my brother-in-law and sister (about six years older than me) and told them this was 105 years after the freeing of the slaves and my parents treat him like that? I told them I could not live in the same house as people like that.

Did anything like that ever happen to any of my other friends who I brought to our house?

Things have improved since then but a black person is still not on an equal level to a white person. How many non-white groups are there that consciously hate white people and therefore will not give them an equal opportunity?

I've had tiny tastes of what it is like to be black.

When I was young and had long hair I was: 1) told I could have the job but I'd have to cut my job (to do a factory job) 2) stopped by the police because I had long hair. My hair could easily be changed and I would have avoided both those situations. A black person cannot change skin color.

Now I'm one of the old guys who plays basketball with guys significantly younger than me (some as many as 50 years younger). I'm wide open, they look at me, and then they look elsewhere to pass the ball. It's like they are looking at me but I don't exist. I said, "This is just like it must be to be black. You get looked at or treated like you don't exist." One night I discussed this with a young Puerto Rican guy who could look Afro-African. His response was, "That plus you get treated differently."

Vinny
Vinny, your story is the story of the world.

When I was 19 I drove a couple of hot young Mexican gals from La Rumorosa to Mexicali to go skating. I was the only güero in the place. With the best looking gals. I was lucky to get out alive.

Try going to China. Or a remote Hawaiian village. Or Kyoto. Or East Texas.
If you're not from the local tribe, you had better watch your P's and Q's. And say yes'm and thank you.

It's the way of the world Vinny. BTW, when was the last time you were in Sicily? Last time I was there, they destroyed my steak and I said, No worries, I like it this way...
I am a 100% Italian-American whose ancestors have not been in this country for not even 125 years. Many Afro-Americans' ancestors go back 150 years, 200 years, even more.

Why am I part of the "local tribe" in America while they are not?

Also, I grew up on a town of 70,000 with two high schools. My three one had 2,000 students. We had one black girl in the whole school who I never saw my three years there. I never saw a black person in my town. Yet right next door to us was South Providence, which was 100% black and which had rioting during the country-wide 1967 riots.

Again, why 100 years after they were emancipated were they segregated in the area next to my town? Why were they not part of the "local tribe"?

Vinny

Vinny

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:08 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:56 pm

I am a 100% Italian-American whose ancestors have not been in this country for not even 125 years. Many Afro-Americans' ancestors go back 150 years, 200 years, even more.

Why am I part of the "local tribe" in America while they are not?

Vinny
The answer is that you are not part of the local tribe except in your very small community. You need to get out more. I don't think you are ready for Italy at all. You would be massacred. My Italian is good enough that I can switch between Florentine, Sicilian and Venetian dialects without a hiccup. But I have American written all over me. No way would I ever disagree with being told to go to the other room. That would be suicide.

Here's an experiment for you. Try gently getting out more in the USA.

Lake Charles
Fairbanks
Millinocket
Billings
Naalehu

If you can get someone to talk to you for more than 5 minutes in any one of these "white" American communities I will personally buy you a wheatgrass shake. You are not part of the "local tribe" in 99.99% of the world. Just like the rest of us.
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by stuper1 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:19 pm

Vinny,

Those people in South Providence weren't segregated by white people, they were segregated by themselves. People segregate themselves all the time. Birds of a feather . . . It's tribalism. Happens all over the world.

You have a good heart, no doubt about that, probably better than most people in any country. What you may not realize is that most people don't have a good heart, not just in America, but in every country. Racism is the norm in every country.
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Jun 02, 2020 11:24 pm

So here's a story just for fun.

I was in Montenegro - and I swear to god that Darwin blessed them all. The native gals are all 1.7m supermodels and the men are 2.0m strapping hunks. I don't know where they hide the rest of the population, but I guess they aren't allowed near the waterfront without a sign that says "I'm sorry, I'm not Montenegrin". I had that sign all over me.

The language is Serbo-Croation but they use the Cyrillic alphabet - otherwise the same as Croatia. So, I could sort of communicate.

On the town quay in Kotor, a couple of Russians would setup a card table each day and "play cards" for a few hours in full sun while wearing nothing but their banana hammocks. At the entry to the quay six or eight burly Russians would "sunbathe" crisscross across the concrete blocking access to anyone stupid enough to try and approach the conversation.

Even after two months, they never invited me to the conversation. Hell, I'm a nice enough guy. What could it be?
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:39 am

Facebook post from Dr. Robert Gagnon regarding the aftermath of the murder of George Floyd:


Everyone has a constitutional right to gather to protest (just as everyone has a constitutional right to gather for worship), even in a pandemic. But these protests have become counterproductive occasions for violence and virtue signaling that have only produced greater suffering for the poor and disadvantaged.

Is the offending police officer and his stand-around cohorts (which include an Asian and a Black) not being punished? They have all been fired and Chauvin is being prosecuted for murder. What else is the system supposed to do? Is anybody for what happened to George Floyd or for racism generally? What concrete policies are being protested?

The civil rights protests in the 1960s were reacting to actual deficiencies that existed in the law and to governing authorities that were really promoting racism. Today's protests are nothing like that.

What racist laws are now in place? Which governing authorities are promoting racist policies? The tragic death of George Floyd is abhorred by everyone who has a voice in the public sector. It happened in a city whose police chief is black and in a state that have been Dem-controlled for decades. Apart from banning a police knee to a struggling arrested party's neck for more than 2 minutes, what concrete policy do protesters hope to effect?

What new federal policy against racism did Barack Obama fail to put in place or enforce during his 8 years in office? What new policy did the Dem-controlled city of Minneapolis or the Dem-controlled state of Mississippi fail to institute or implement in the decades that Dems have been in power?

Are the protesters protesting a disproportionate pandemic of unjust killings of blacks by white police officers? Studies (including a study by a black professor at Harvard) show that blacks are killed at no higher rate by white officers than blacks are killed by black officers or than whites are killed by white officers. In fact, police are 47% *less* likely to shoot black suspects who hadn’t already attacked them compared with whites. Every death of this sort is tragic but what looks like a disproportionate rate of killing apparently only seems so because of the disproportionate media attention given to the killing of blacks by white officers. Whites per case are also more likely to be arrested than blacks for robbery and assault.

Do racist attitudes and thoughts still exist? Yes, but what official is advocating such or what policy is promoting such? When these attitudes and thoughts issue in actions that can be dealt with by the system, they are being dealt with.

So far as crime is concerned, the major issue is not racism since blacks are far more likely to be victimized by fellow blacks than they are by white people in general, much less by white police officers in particular. Blacks are just 13% of the population but responsible for a majority of all murders in the U.S., including over 90% of all murders where a black person is the victim. Blacks commit violent crimes at 7 to 10 times the rate that whites do.

As regards interracial crimes, “In 2012, blacks committed 560,600 acts of violence against whites (excluding homicide), and whites committed 99,403 acts of violence (excluding homicide) against blacks,” writes the Manhattan Institute’s Heather Mac Donald, citing federal Bureau of Justice Statistics data. “Blacks, in other words, committed 85 percent of the non-homicide interracial crimes of violence between blacks and whites." Blacks are also 12 times more likely to rob white victims than whites are to rob black victims.

Here in Pittsburgh (a Dem-controlled city for decades), although starting peaceful, two days of protests have left scores of injured police and protesters and over a hundred businesses looted or destroyed. For what? Justice for George Floyd, they chanted. What do they think is happening? Has the city of Minneapolis or the state of Minnesota been deficient in firing and prosecuting Chauvin for murder? What do you want them to do? Flay him alive before a trial? Hang him on a pole and have the public hurl rocks at him? It is we, the taxpaying citizens of Pittsburgh, who have to pay for all this damage, these injuries, and the round-the-clock police presence. It is our community that suffers.

These protests may be making a lot of people feel good about themselves ("Look at me: I protested for civil rights and laws that are already in place!") but they are doing plenty of concrete harm. They have become protests for the sake of appearance that produce harm in reality. Speaking as someone who lives in the city, consider why there is so much flight from urban areas.

Bottom line: The protesters are protesting what no person publicly promotes and what no major policy furthers. Their protests have become vehicles for criminal elements to endanger lives and inflict massive destruction on property that in the end are hurting far more people than these protests are helping (if indeed they are even helping anyone), blacks as well as whites, poor as well as rich.
Simonjester wrote: well said...
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by dualstow » Wed Jun 03, 2020 5:55 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:08 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:56 pm
...
Vinny
... I don't think you are ready for Italy at all. You would be massacred. My Italian is good enough that I can switch between Florentine, Sicilian and Venetian dialects without a hiccup. But I have American written all over me. No way would I ever disagree with being told to go to the other room.
Just a side note- that is really cool! My friend taught me to say “I drank three bottles of wine” in Veneto dialect, but even then there were hiccups.
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:39 am

You're right about the tribe aspect. From birth to about 12 years old, I had exactly one friend who wasn't either family or Italian. I lived in Chicago , but pretty much never saw a black person except for yearly visits downtown for an eye doctor appt.

I speak Italian well, and on our honeymoon in Italy, we were in a candy shop. The lady in front of me got some candy, and they weighed it by the gram. I got to the counter, and they were going to charge me by the piece, which was going to be a lot more. I let her have it. I could speak Italian, I was Italian, but I really wasn't because I obviously stuck out.

My parents were initially really really cold to my wife, who is Chinese. It's gotten a lot better, but never as good as for my sister-in-law who is Italian.

I've had daydreams of the whole world turning some same shade of dark brown and all speaking the same language. I wonder what would happen.
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by dualstow » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:48 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:39 am
I've had daydreams of the whole world turning some same shade of dark brown and all speaking the same language. I wonder what would happen.
We’d still find enough differences to massacre each other, like the Hutus vs the Tutsis or the Biblical story that is the origin of the word shibboleth.
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:51 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:39 am
You're right about the tribe aspect. From birth to about 12 years old, I had exactly one friend who wasn't either family or Italian. I lived in Chicago , but pretty much never saw a black person except for yearly visits downtown for an eye doctor appt.
Wow! You grew up in a much bigger Italian enclave than me! I thought Rhode Island and where I lived was "Little Italy" but I'd not be able to make the same statement that you did. My Catholic church which was for the Italians had 10,000 people in it. We shared our parking lot with the Irish Catholic church which has about 3,000 in it. Therefore we had quite a few Irish mixed in with our Italian population. But in all of this, none of we Italians ever reveled in our Italian-ness. We were brought up to be Americans.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:53 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:39 am

I've had daydreams of the whole world turning some same shade of dark brown and all speaking the same language. I wonder what would happen.
It's a daydream. Same as when John Lennon wrote the song "Imagine" he was in a three year period of not at all seeing his son Julian (by Lennon's choice).

Vinny
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by WiseOne » Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:53 am

Xan wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:57 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:55 pm
We all had an opportunity to go to really good schools, and live in great neighborhoods.

I don't think most of us have any concept of living in neighborhoods like some of the ones where we are seeing the riots. Of going to shitty schools. Of being in fear of gangs.
Here's the thing about the "blame the bad neighborhoods they have to live in" theory: what primarily determines a "good" or "bad" neighborhood is the behavior of the neighbors. Same for the local public school: it's "good" or "bad" primarily based on the behavior of the students and parents.

So yes, you could pick an individual person and say "here's the problem with this guy: he had to grow up in that neighborhood. If he'd lived in a better neighborhood he'd have been just fine". That may well be true.

But at the group level, that doesn't make sense. Saying it boils down to "Black people are having these problems because they have to live near other black people, and you know what trouble THEY are." ...Okay, but why is THAT, then?
YES.

Same logic as "Nobody goes there. It's too crowded." I tend to think that criminal behavior is a choice, not an inbred trait or a law of nature. It is in the power of the black community to fix this problem. They're not interested.

There is no way that a confrontation between a police officer and a criminal is going to be anything but adversarial in nature, with an element of danger to both parties. In a way, it's amazing that there are so few incidents. Approaching it by assuming that police officers must always act like self-sacrificing angels is bound to fail. Reducing the number of such confrontations is the only solution. And there are just two ways to do that: 1) commit fewer crimes, and 2) don't try to enforce laws in black neighborhoods. The black community seems to be asking for the second solution, but they need to think hard about what that would mean.

To see the effects of solution #2 in action, go no further than certain neighborhoods in Philadelphia e.g. South Philly. The police don't go there except rarely and in pairs or groups - never alone. You can literally stand in an upscale area of Center City, look south, and see the destruction. With plenty of open parking spaces that no one from Center City will take, just half a block south of the border.
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:02 am

Heather Mac Donald was on C-Span's Washington Journal this morning:

https://www.c-span.org/video/?472662-4/ ... ds-killing

June 3, 2020 | Part Of Washington Journal 06/03/2020
Heather Mac Donald on Protests Following George Floyd's Killing

Heather Mac Donald talked about policing in the U.S. and the protests following the death of George Floyd.


And, here is her Wall Street Journal article of yesterday:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-o ... 1591119883

The Myth of Systemic Police Racism
Hold officers accountable who use excessive force. But there’s no evidence of widespread racial bias.

By Heather Mac Donald
June 2, 2020 1:44 pm ET



A demonstrator kneels before a police line in Washington, May 31.
Photo: samuel corum/Agence France-Presse/Getty Images

George Floyd’s death in Minneapolis has revived the Obama-era narrative that law enforcement is endemically racist. On Friday, Barack Obama tweeted that for millions of black Americans, being treated differently by the criminal justice system on account of race is “tragically, painfully, maddeningly ‘normal.’ ” Mr. Obama called on the police and the public to create a “new normal,” in which bigotry no longer “infects our institutions and our hearts.”

Joe Biden released a video the same day in which he asserted that all African-Americans fear for their safety from “bad police” and black children must be instructed to tolerate police abuse just so they can “make it home.” That echoed a claim Mr. Obama made after the ambush murder of five Dallas officers in July 2016. During their memorial service, the president said African-American parents were right to fear that their children may be killed by police officers whenever they go outside.
Rioters Torch the Rule of Law
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Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz denounced the “stain . . . of fundamental, institutional racism” on law enforcement during a Friday press conference. He claimed blacks were right to dismiss promises of police reform as empty verbiage.

This charge of systemic police bias was wrong during the Obama years and remains so today. However sickening the video of Floyd’s arrest, it isn’t representative of the 375 million annual contacts that police officers have with civilians. A solid body of evidence finds no structural bias in the criminal-justice system with regard to arrests, prosecution or sentencing. Crime and suspect behavior, not race, determine most police actions.


In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or otherwise dangerous. African-Americans were about a quarter of those killed by cops last year (235), a ratio that has remained stable since 2015. That share of black victims is less than what the black crime rate would predict, since police shootings are a function of how often officers encounter armed and violent suspects. In 2018, the latest year for which such data have been published, African-Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders in the U.S. and commit about 60% of robberies, though they are 13% of the population.

The police fatally shot nine unarmed blacks and 19 unarmed whites in 2019, according to a Washington Post database, down from 38 and 32, respectively, in 2015. The Post defines “unarmed” broadly to include such cases as a suspect in Newark, N.J., who had a loaded handgun in his car during a police chase. In 2018 there were 7,407 black homicide victims. Assuming a comparable number of victims last year, those nine unarmed black victims of police shootings represent 0.1% of all African-Americans killed in 2019. By contrast, a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.

On Memorial Day weekend in Chicago alone, 10 African-Americans were killed in drive-by shootings. Such routine violence has continued—a 72-year-old Chicago man shot in the face on May 29 by a gunman who fired about a dozen shots into a residence; two 19-year-old women on the South Side shot to death as they sat in a parked car a few hours earlier; a 16-year-old boy fatally stabbed with his own knife that same day. This past weekend, 80 Chicagoans were shot in drive-by shootings, 21 fatally, the victims overwhelmingly black. Police shootings are not the reason that blacks die of homicide at eight times the rate of whites and Hispanics combined; criminal violence is.

The latest in a series of studies undercutting the claim of systemic police bias was published in August 2019 in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. The researchers found that the more frequently officers encounter violent suspects from any given racial group, the greater the chance that a member of that group will be fatally shot by a police officer. There is “no significant evidence of antiblack disparity in the likelihood of being fatally shot by police,” they concluded.

A 2015 Justice Department analysis of the Philadelphia Police Department found that white police officers were less likely than black or Hispanic officers to shoot unarmed black suspects. Research by Harvard economist Roland G. Fryer Jr. also found no evidence of racial discrimination in shootings. Any evidence to the contrary fails to take into account crime rates and civilian behavior before and during interactions with police.

The false narrative of systemic police bias resulted in targeted killings of officers during the Obama presidency. The pattern may be repeating itself. Officers are being assaulted and shot at while they try to arrest gun suspects or respond to the growing riots. Police precincts and courthouses have been destroyed with impunity, which will encourage more civilization-destroying violence. If the Ferguson effect of officers backing off law enforcement in minority neighborhoods is reborn as the Minneapolis effect, the thousands of law-abiding African-Americans who depend on the police for basic safety will once again be the victims.

The Minneapolis officers who arrested George Floyd must be held accountable for their excessive use of force and callous indifference to his distress. Police training needs to double down on de-escalation tactics. But Floyd’s death should not undermine the legitimacy of American law enforcement, without which we will continue on a path toward chaos.

Ms. Mac Donald is a fellow at the Manhattan Institute and the author of “The War on Cops,” (Encounter Books, 2016).
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by dualstow » Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:19 am

I posted that article. Don’t know if anyone saw it. I should have posted the full text as you did, since it’s paywalled.
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by stuper1 » Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:36 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:39 am
I've had daydreams of the whole world turning some same shade of dark brown and all speaking the same language. I wonder what would happen.
This is the fantasy of the globalists. This is what they want. To me, it sounds awful and boring. If I want to go visit Japan or Nigeria, I don't want it to look like Omaha. Differences are wonderful, as long as we treat each other with respect. If people want respect, they need to start by respecting themselves. If they act like animals, they will likely get treated as animals.
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by vnatale » Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:53 am

dualstow wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:19 am
I posted that article. Don’t know if anyone saw it. I should have posted the full text as you did, since it’s paywalled.
If you read it -- which I presume you did - you'd probably also want to watch the video of her on Washington Journal today.

VInny
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:17 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:36 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:39 am
I've had daydreams of the whole world turning some same shade of dark brown and all speaking the same language. I wonder what would happen.
This is the fantasy of the globalists. This is what they want. To me, it sounds awful and boring. If I want to go visit Japan or Nigeria, I don't want it to look like Omaha. Differences are wonderful, as long as we treat each other with respect. If people want respect, they need to start by respecting themselves. If they act like animals, they will likely get treated as animals.
I always wondered what the rest of earth that wasn't in Starfleet did. Everything was automated, unlimited energy, unlimited food. I wonder what life was like on that earth.

I love differences.
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Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Jun 03, 2020 12:45 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:53 am
Xan wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:57 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:55 pm
We all had an opportunity to go to really good schools, and live in great neighborhoods.

I don't think most of us have any concept of living in neighborhoods like some of the ones where we are seeing the riots. Of going to shitty schools. Of being in fear of gangs.
Here's the thing about the "blame the bad neighborhoods they have to live in" theory: what primarily determines a "good" or "bad" neighborhood is the behavior of the neighbors. Same for the local public school: it's "good" or "bad" primarily based on the behavior of the students and parents.

So yes, you could pick an individual person and say "here's the problem with this guy: he had to grow up in that neighborhood. If he'd lived in a better neighborhood he'd have been just fine". That may well be true.

But at the group level, that doesn't make sense. Saying it boils down to "Black people are having these problems because they have to live near other black people, and you know what trouble THEY are." ...Okay, but why is THAT, then?
YES.

Same logic as "Nobody goes there. It's too crowded." I tend to think that criminal behavior is a choice, not an inbred trait or a law of nature. It is in the power of the black community to fix this problem. They're not interested.

There is no way that a confrontation between a police officer and a criminal is going to be anything but adversarial in nature, with an element of danger to both parties. In a way, it's amazing that there are so few incidents. Approaching it by assuming that police officers must always act like self-sacrificing angels is bound to fail. Reducing the number of such confrontations is the only solution. And there are just two ways to do that: 1) commit fewer crimes, and 2) don't try to enforce laws in black neighborhoods. The black community seems to be asking for the second solution, but they need to think hard about what that would mean.

To see the effects of solution #2 in action, go no further than certain neighborhoods in Philadelphia e.g. South Philly. The police don't go there except rarely and in pairs or groups - never alone. You can literally stand in an upscale area of Center City, look south, and see the destruction. With plenty of open parking spaces that no one from Center City will take, just half a block south of the border.
Philly is my home town. I was born there and spent a fair amount of my life either there or in the suburbs.
When someone asked me to describe it, I said: "South Philly is a slum, North Philly is a slum, and West Philly is a slum." Then when they asked "What about East Philly?", I would say "There isn't any East Philly."
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