Ad Orientem wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 12:32 pm
* Most of the really reputable polling entities adjusted their methodologies after 2016 to factor in the likelihood of closeted Trump supporters.
Is that truly the case? I hadn't seen anything about that. Even if they were, it's unlikely they're fully accounting for the extent of the "silent" vote, as I would expect it's become much more extensive in the era of "cancel culture" and firings or prosecutions for holding unpopular political views.
I also took a look at these numbers and immediately thought, Wow, Trump could win this. A silent Trump vote of just a few percent plus a mail-in ballot "penalty" of 1% or so for the Democrats could easily overcome these Biden margins. And these are mostly major battleground states, where the outcome really matters.
I was just watching Scott Adams and he believes that rather than just being silent Trump supporters, a lot of them are actually telling pollsters that they are going to vote for Biden because it's "fun". He didn't elaborate on what he meant by that but I assume he means they enjoyed the shock and dismay on the faces of the news people so much in 2016 that they want to experience it again. Says he took an informal poll on twitter and there were hundreds who confirmed that they had actually done this.
pp4me wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:32 pm
I was just watching Scott Adams and he believes that rather than just being silent Trump supporters, a lot of them are actually telling pollsters that they are going to vote for Biden because it's "fun". He didn't elaborate on what he meant by that but I assume he means they enjoyed the shock and dismay on the faces of the news people so much in 2016 that they want to experience it again. Says he took an informal poll on twitter and there were hundreds who confirmed that they had actually done this.
There was a time when a practice such as this would be called lying and poor citizenship.
Have our values changed to the point where we find it fun to lie for the purpose of bringing unhappiness and hurt to others?
Economic and political ideologies are one thing. But people like that just suck. And the fact that it's become cool to suck kinda sucks.
pp4me wrote: ↑Tue Oct 20, 2020 1:32 pm
I was just watching Scott Adams and he believes that rather than just being silent Trump supporters, a lot of them are actually telling pollsters that they are going to vote for Biden because it's "fun". He didn't elaborate on what he meant by that but I assume he means they enjoyed the shock and dismay on the faces of the news people so much in 2016 that they want to experience it again. Says he took an informal poll on twitter and there were hundreds who confirmed that they had actually done this.
There was a time when a practice such as this would be called lying and poor citizenship.
Have our values changed to the point where we find it fun to lie for the purpose of bringing unhappiness and hurt to others?
Economic and political ideologies are one thing. But people like that just suck. And the fact that it's become cool to suck kinda sucks.
EXACTLY my reaction! If I find out someone has lied to me just one time, they never get the future benefit of the doubt from me and are always under suspicion as to whether I am hearing the truth from them.
Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
"A false witness shall not go unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish." -Proverbs 19:9
Lying is inherently dishonorable and it has become far too normative in certain quarters. This should not be a surprise, though it is certainly a source of sadness, when we have a president whose very name has become synonymous with mendacity.
MangoMan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:39 am
Sorry, you are under no obligation to be truthful to someone with whom you didn't ask to be engaged, and is likely disturbing you.
For my ethics, I'd just hang up on them or give them no answer at all. But not an untruthful one. What is so difficult with behaving that way?
Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Ad Orientem wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:15 am
"A false witness shall not go unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall perish." -Proverbs 19:9
Lying is inherently dishonorable and it has become far too normative in certain quarters. This should not be a surprise, though it is certainly a source of sadness, when we have a president whose very name has become synonymous with mendacity.
Somewhat related and some may think tangential but...
Luke 16:10-12 10"Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with much, and whoever is dishonest with very little will also be dishonest with much. 11So if you have not been trustworthy in handling worldly wealth, who will trust you with true riches? 12And if you have not been trustworthy with someone else's property, who will give you property of your own?
Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
MangoMan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:39 am
Sorry, you are under no obligation to be truthful to someone with whom you didn't ask to be engaged, and is likely disturbing you.
If you mean there's no obligation in legal terms, i.e. no law against it, you're absolutely right.
Personal values are not always defined by legal requirements though.
And of course it is completely your right to set your own standards. If deception for for entertainment floats your boat, then party on and I for one hope we never do business together.
MangoMan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:39 am
Sorry, you are under no obligation to be truthful to someone with whom you didn't ask to be engaged, and is likely disturbing you.
Unless they have a badge and gun, in which case if they engage you, even if it’s disturbing you, in most places, you have to identify yourself and provide demographic information truthfully. Because... the law.
Special exception.
glennds wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:44 am
If you mean there's no obligation in legal terms, i.e. no law against it, you're absolutely right.
Personal values are not always defined by legal requirements though.
And of course it is completely your right to set your own standards. If deception for for entertainment floats your boat, then party on and I for one hope we never do business together.
I never said anything about business; presumably, both parties chose to be engaged in the conversation.
Personal values don't apply to telemarketers of any kind. I have a different set of rules that apply.
My special rule is when it is the rare time when my phone is plugged in and it is a telemarketer calling as soon as I identify them as so they do not hear a word from me and I hang up on them while they are in mid-sentence. That is all they deserve from me.
VInny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
MangoMan wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:39 am
Sorry, you are under no obligation to be truthful to someone with whom you didn't ask to be engaged, and is likely disturbing you.
Unless they have a badge and gun, in which case if they engage you, even if it’s disturbing you, in most places, you have to identify yourself and provide demographic information truthfully. Because... the law.
Special exception.
glennds wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:44 am
If you mean there's no obligation in legal terms, i.e. no law against it, you're absolutely right.
Personal values are not always defined by legal requirements though.
And of course it is completely your right to set your own standards. If deception for for entertainment floats your boat, then party on and I for one hope we never do business together.
I never said anything about business; presumably, both parties chose to be engaged in the conversation.
Personal values don't apply to telemarketers of any kind. I have a different set of rules that apply.
My special rule is when it is the rare time when my phone is plugged in and it is a telemarketer calling as soon as I identify them as so they do not hear a word from me and I hang up on them while they are in mid-sentence. That is all they deserve from me.
VInny
Some would consider that disrespectful (I don't). Not sure how that's any different than playing with them.
I don't hang up on them. I just sit the phone down and let them keep on talking until they realize nobody is listening. I figure that way I can waste some of their time just like they are doing to me. Since I use Google voice for my landline I then go in afterward and report the call as Spam. I know the robo-callers keep changing numbers but I figure that will hassle them at least a little bit.
Sometimes I do play along to have some fun. Like when they are obviously phishing for information they are pretending to already have but just want to confirm. I just like hearing how the caller responds when they realize they've been busted.
I've never been called by a pollster but I might very well give them false information and I wouldn't feel the slightest bit bad about it. These are companies who sell poll results for profit but I don't get a penny from them for invading my privacy. And why do we even need these polls any way? I can see why the politicians would want them to know where to campaign but why do we need the news media to constantly be telling us who is behind and who is ahead?
Kbg wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 4:33 pm
Prophecy...Texas becoming competitive transforms the R party into something else. Not sure what that is but I suspect it looks less southern and more Midwest/inter mountain west where the Republican flavor is way dialed down on social conservatism and race issues and more about actual political conservatism and effective but small government.
Texas and its evolving demographics is probably the most important long term strategic issue confronting the GOP. The minute Texas flips, the GOP's path to winning a national election becomes more difficult by a factor. This is because of the Electoral College. Texas is the only large population/electoral vote rich state that has been reliably Republican. The last time they voted Democrat was in 1976. Because of the EC, if Texas votes Dem by even 1/2 of 1%, every Republican vote in the state becomes meaningless in a presidential election. Put bluntly, if Texas flips and we are still using the EC to determine presidential elections, I don't see a viable path to the White House for Republicans. The electoral college is a suicide pact for the Republican Party. But most Republicans are too terrified to grasp it because they can't see past the next election and have largely given up trying to win a popular vote election. Republicans have become more or less open in their defense of minority rule.
The GOP badly needs a come to Jesus reality check. And I think this election may provide that. The moment is just about here where they will need to decide whether they want to be a serious national political party, or whether they are content to decline into the status of a regional party with little appeal outside of rural mostly white states. If the former then they need to begin by jettisoning the fringe elements that have taken over the party and alienated so much of the electorate. If on the other hand they are content to be the party of Donald Trump, conspiracy theorists and white supremacists, then we may begin seeing the movement towards the creation of a new, center right political party capable of, and willing to, compete on a national scale.
Ad Orientem wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:17 pm
If the former then they need to begin by jettisoning the fringe elements that have taken over the party and alienated so much of the electorate. If on the other hand they are content to be the party of Donald Trump, conspiracy theorists and white supremacists, then we may begin seeing the movement towards the creation of a new, center right political party capable of, and willing to, compete on a national scale.
Do you have any suggestions as to how they would go about purging the white supremacists? Is it just voting for Donald Trump or are there other distinguishing characteristics?
Ad Orientem wrote: ↑Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:17 pm
If the former then they need to begin by jettisoning the fringe elements that have taken over the party and alienated so much of the electorate. If on the other hand they are content to be the party of Donald Trump, conspiracy theorists and white supremacists, then we may begin seeing the movement towards the creation of a new, center right political party capable of, and willing to, compete on a national scale.
Do you have any suggestions as to how they would go about purging the white supremacists? Is it just voting for Donald Trump or are there other distinguishing characteristics?
It's not as much as purging them but, instead, not encouraging them and not making them feel comfortable in both their expressions and actual acts.
Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
I actually do think they need to be purged. They need to be told in no uncertain terms they are not welcome and to go crawl back under whatever rock they emerged from. For most of the last twenty years the GOP has been subtly, and sometimes not so subtly, rolling out the welcome mat for these lowlifes. Steve King being just one obvious example. The GOP has gone from being the party of Lincoln to the party of Jefferson Davis and Nathan Bedford Forrest. The party that pushed through the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments has become the party of racist voter suppression.
Simonjester wrote:
white supremacist are a extremely small fringe minority, they barely even exist anymore... they also tend to support the dems both traditionally and currently far more than the republicans, the media loves to yell white supremacist at the right, but my gut take on it is it is mostly propaganda, along with the “The Southern Strategy.” that they base most of these claims on..
I actually disagree with a few of the color coded states. Utah, West Virginia, and Mississippi should all be dark red. They are solidly Trump states by double digits.
MangoMan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:12 am
I don't disagree that the GOP needs a makeover. My point was that the Democrats do, too. Both parties have become near insufferable.
MangoMan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:12 am
I don't disagree that the GOP needs a makeover. My point was that the Democrats do, too. Both parties have become near insufferable.
+1
We allowed them to get that way. They are a reflection of our populace. It also doesn't help that our political system is entirely corrupted by big money and gerrymandering
Yes, it’s a reflection of our populace. Even widespread corruption among our politicians is generally an indication of corruption within the populace.
Regardless of our religious views, we have to recognize that in previous generations, the majority of Americans attended church. Every week, Americans would sit in church and get a weekly dose of morality and ethics. Some would say they also got a weekly dose of supernatural bullshit, but you can’t deny that they got morality and ethics.
Now that most Americans no longer attend church, where do most of them get their weekly dose of morality and ethics? CNN and Fox News?
How_to_Steal_an_Election_-_Gerrymandering.svg.png (77.77 KiB) Viewed 3007 times
I think there is also an issue with our winner take all system. If 47.5 percent of populace votes for one parties agenda and the other candidate wins 49 percent I think it's problematic that the winner gets everything. Definitely an argument in favor of parliamentary system. Would also allow people like those in this board to vote for libertarian or green party candidates and have their vote matter.
BREAKING NEWS - Trump's execution list: President will 'fire the FBI Director Christopher Wray, CIA Director Gina Haspel, Defense Secretary Mark Esper AND a long line of senior officials if he wins re-election'
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
