Why Left Supports Lockdown?

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Xan
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by Xan » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:36 am

vnatale wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:31 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:39 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:33 am
That had to have been a strangely worded poll question - I hope.
Page 62:

54355.png
Why the surprise? The government's reactions to 9/11 and the public's subsequent compliance to all these reactions already well demonstrated all of this.

Vinny
It demonstrated that they were willing to give up some liberties in some cases to help protect against some threats.

This question is asking the inverse (or converse?). It's asking whether there's EVER a time to take a safety risk for the sake of liberty.

Of course, it's actually very likely that people aren't interpreting the question carefully, and just hear "safety vs liberty".
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by shekels » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:51 am

Xan wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:36 am
vnatale wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:31 am
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:39 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 8:33 am
That had to have been a strangely worded poll question - I hope.
Page 62:

54355.png
Why the surprise? The government's reactions to 9/11 and the public's subsequent compliance to all these reactions already well demonstrated all of this.

Vinny
It demonstrated that they were willing to give up some liberties in some cases to help protect against some threats.

This question is asking the inverse (or converse?). It's asking whether there's EVER a time to take a safety risk for the sake of liberty.

Of course, it's actually very likely that people aren't interpreting the question carefully, and just hear "safety vs liberty".
Seat Belts comes to mind
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:52 am

Well, that poll result certainly verifies the Scriptural teaching that ALL are sinners deserving of God's wrath and thus the desparate need for a Savior. Either sinners or morons. Sure am God provided the answer to deal with our sin, we are incapable of it - regardless of the great scientific minds that are all going to be enslaved to the almighty state. But what do I know. I'm one of those sinners. ;)
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:08 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:52 am
Well, that poll result certainly verifies the Scriptural teaching that ALL are sinners deserving of God's wrath and thus the desparate need for a Savior. Either sinners or morons. Sure am God provided the answer to deal with our sin, we are incapable of it - regardless of the great scientific minds that are all going to be enslaved to the almighty state. But what do I know. I'm one of those sinners. ;)
That's better than being one of the morons!
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by GT » Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:27 am

If I am reading the below correctly AOC would like to turn the shutdown into a workers strike -

AOC Says Reopening the Economy Shouldn't Mean Returning to 70-Hour Work Weeks
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/884z ... work-weeks

“Only in America, does the president, when the president tweets about liberation, does he mean ‘go back to work,’” the progressive legislator said. “We have this discussion about ‘going back’ or ‘reopening’ — I think a lot of people should just say ‘No, we’re not going back to that. We’re not going back to working 70-hour weeks just so that we can put food on the table and not feel any sort of semblance of security in our lives.”

TBH I do not know anyone that has to work 70 hours a week just to put food on the table …

Now going forward I wouldn't be opposed to ensuring manpower supply and demands are handled fairly with the restarting of the economy

I would not want mega corps to use the excess labor pool of displaced workers to suppress salaries in the name of extra profits.
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:53 am

tomfoolery wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:53 am
Xan wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 9:36 am
This question is asking the inverse (or converse?). It's asking whether there's EVER a time to take a safety risk for the sake of liberty.
What if every liberty requires taking a safety risk?

Freedom of religion takes a safety risk that a rival religion will genocide you.

Liberty of firearms ownership takes the security risk that you might shoot yourself, a loved one, or a random bystander by accident.

Liberty of free speech takes a freedom risk you’ll piss someone off to the point of them physically attacking you, or rallying the SJWs to stage a digital boycott against your business/employer.

Liberty to choose your own diet means you might pick the wrong foods and die prematurely of diabeetus or heart disease.

Liberty of choosing your own spouse means you may choose wrong and get a divorce and lose over half your money.

What alternatives do we have to liberty? Let the government decide our religion, our spouse, our diet, ban guns, ban “hate speech”, etc?

There’s a safety risk in letting the government decide those things. What if they choose wrong? Now you still bear the consequences of their decision making.
Yes. The real trick is harmonizing government/laws and cultural norms/mores. Case in point: Sweden and Japan. Both still largely homogeneous populations with pervasive norms/mores. I think the Swedish government has taken the official stance that they think their population will "do the right things" to contain the spread of a virus. Japan already has a culture of cleanliness and wearing face masks when they're sick. Those countries have decided that their people have a good culture and so the government doesn't need to rule them, it needs to govern them.

Some of your examples are good. As I see it, the difference is that in some of them, you have the liberty to get what you deserve, like being free to eat foods that can give you diabetes. That's a good example, because cultural norms are the governor (in the car sense) on that behavior, or at least they used to be. People didn't eat so much of those foods that they got diabetes because people would make fun of them for being fat, or they knew they'd never find a spouse because they were physically disgusting.

Your freedom of speech example is less than stellar. Maybe that's because my cultural norm tells me you shouldn't throw fists with someone if they have a different opinion than you. Cultural norms dictate whether you can fight someone if they insult you (the insult is code for "hey man, you wanna fight?"). I think the better example is nearer to the SJWs boycotting you. Freedom of speech means you might say things that make people not like you.

I've been thinking a lot recently about cultural norms/mores. Definitely interesting to mull over.
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by Libertarian666 » Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:56 am

MangoMan wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:49 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:12 am
tomfoolery wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:05 am
....a bunch of good points
Good analysis: agreed on all counts.
I agree with all as well, but I am way more worried about the economic impact of this than the unintentional health risks.
As am I.
And I'm in one of the risk categories by age.
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by WiseOne » Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:48 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:49 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:12 am
tomfoolery wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:05 am
....a bunch of good points
Good analysis: agreed on all counts.
I agree with all as well, but I am way more worried about the economic impact of this than the unintentional health risks.
Agreed. There are two types of health risks attributable to the lockdown: 1) effects of the cancellation of elective procedures, and 2) the negative health effects of job/insurance loss, social isolation etc. Elective procedures aren't just knee replacements; they include things you might consider critically important like cancer surgeries, chemotherapy/radiation treatments, cardiac stents & bypass, carotid endarterectomies, epilepsy surgeries, implants to control disabling tremors etc. It is very dismaying that state governments are completely ignoring these effects in weighing their lockdown decisions.

There has been a sharp increase in the number of people dying at home, and no one knows why because the majority are not being autopsied. It's been assumed that these are COVID deaths, but it's just as likely that these are untreated conditions that people tried to tough out at home for whatever reason.
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by Libertarian666 » Sun Apr 26, 2020 1:30 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:48 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:49 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:12 am
tomfoolery wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:05 am
....a bunch of good points
Good analysis: agreed on all counts.
I agree with all as well, but I am way more worried about the economic impact of this than the unintentional health risks.
Agreed. There are two types of health risks attributable to the lockdown: 1) effects of the cancellation of elective procedures, and 2) the negative health effects of job/insurance loss, social isolation etc. Elective procedures aren't just knee replacements; they include things you might consider critically important like cancer surgeries, chemotherapy/radiation treatments, cardiac stents & bypass, carotid endarterectomies, epilepsy surgeries, implants to control disabling tremors etc. It is very dismaying that state governments are completely ignoring these effects in weighing their lockdown decisions.

There has been a sharp increase in the number of people dying at home, and no one knows why because the majority are not being autopsied. It's been assumed that these are COVID deaths, but it's just as likely that these are untreated conditions that people tried to tough out at home for whatever reason.
I'm pretty sure that I need elective surgery, although not one of the types you mention. I have a couple of related appointments this week, which is good because my condition, although not an emergency yet, could become one at any moment, and I'd much rather not get to that point.
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by ochotona » Sun Apr 26, 2020 4:52 pm

I'm sick of politicians trying to accentuate differences between them and the other party in order to throw red meat to their base. That's what I'm sick of. Climbing on top of dead bodies and/or a dead economy to make a point.

We have very few, maybe no good choices. People just want the least harmful path.
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by WiseOne » Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:41 pm

GT wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:27 am
If I am reading the below correctly AOC would like to turn the shutdown into a workers strike -

AOC Says Reopening the Economy Shouldn't Mean Returning to 70-Hour Work Weeks
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/884z ... work-weeks

“Only in America, does the president, when the president tweets about liberation, does he mean ‘go back to work,’” the progressive legislator said. “We have this discussion about ‘going back’ or ‘reopening’ — I think a lot of people should just say ‘No, we’re not going back to that. We’re not going back to working 70-hour weeks just so that we can put food on the table and not feel any sort of semblance of security in our lives.”

TBH I do not know anyone that has to work 70 hours a week just to put food on the table …

Now going forward I wouldn't be opposed to ensuring manpower supply and demands are handled fairly with the restarting of the economy

I would not want mega corps to use the excess labor pool of displaced workers to suppress salaries in the name of extra profits.
Fortunately, we may be spared AOC's brand of continued loose cannon idiocy. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce is backing a moderate Democrat in the June primary, Michelle Caruso-Cabrera. AOC's driving away of Amazon from Queens was simply too much for her district, which is now suffering greatly because of that action.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/0 ... ger-175917

I remember being as dumb and strident as AOC in my college days - like everyone else. Nobody that young should be in Congress. It's not the place for the kind of strident outbursts that you expect from stoned demonstrators or drunk people in bars.
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by Libertarian666 » Sun Apr 26, 2020 11:32 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:41 pm
GT wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 10:27 am
If I am reading the below correctly AOC would like to turn the shutdown into a workers strike -

AOC Says Reopening the Economy Shouldn't Mean Returning to 70-Hour Work Weeks
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/884z ... work-weeks

“Only in America, does the president, when the president tweets about liberation, does he mean ‘go back to work,’” the progressive legislator said. “We have this discussion about ‘going back’ or ‘reopening’ — I think a lot of people should just say ‘No, we’re not going back to that. We’re not going back to working 70-hour weeks just so that we can put food on the table and not feel any sort of semblance of security in our lives.”

TBH I do not know anyone that has to work 70 hours a week just to put food on the table …

Now going forward I wouldn't be opposed to ensuring manpower supply and demands are handled fairly with the restarting of the economy

I would not want mega corps to use the excess labor pool of displaced workers to suppress salaries in the name of extra profits.
Fortunately, we may be spared AOC's brand of continued loose cannon idiocy. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce is backing a moderate Democrat in the June primary, Michelle Caruso-Cabrera. AOC's driving away of Amazon from Queens was simply too much for her district, which is now suffering greatly because of that action.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/0 ... ger-175917

I remember being as dumb and strident as AOC in my college days - like everyone else. Nobody that young should be in Congress. It's not the place for the kind of strident outbursts that you expect from stoned demonstrators or drunk people in bars.
Maybe you were that strident but I have trouble imagining you ever being that dumb. O0
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:21 am

WiseOne wrote:
Sun Apr 26, 2020 6:41 pm
I remember being as dumb and strident as AOC in my college days - like everyone else.
Image
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by ochotona » Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:44 am

The left controls most large cities going into the pandemic.
They implemented lockdowns based on the responses from other city leaders around the world.
The GOP wants to dig rifts and divides in and amongst Americans so they can hopefully peel off voters for November.

You are being played. It isn't about the pandemic.

IGNORE ALL OF IT. It's like Jim Farking Cramer. Ignore it. Don't let it into your head.

You know those billboard signs? "Have you every wondered if billboard signs work? Well, know you know they work!"

How about,

"Have you ever wondered how poiliticians f*** with you mind so that you'll vote for them? Look at the title of the forum thread you're on right now... it worked!"
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by doodle » Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:44 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:56 am
MangoMan wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:49 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:12 am
tomfoolery wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:05 am
....a bunch of good points
Good analysis: agreed on all counts.
I agree with all as well, but I am way more worried about the economic impact of this than the unintentional health risks.
As am I.
And I'm in one of the risk categories by age.
This would still decimate economy irrespective of lockdown. Once news hit that bodies were piling up in the street outside hospitals people would go into pandemonium.

Even when lockdown restrictions are relaxed you think anything is going to change? You gonna start crowding into movie theaters, bars, airports again? Nothing is going to change until there is a vaccinne.

As far as trumps handling of this, absolutely pathetic. Defensive, combative, misinformative borderring on total bullshit , lack of any empathy. The man has no leadership skills. Always reminds me of playground bully...so "tough" yet so sensitive.
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by ochotona » Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:05 am

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:59 am
I'm not sure I get your point. What IS it about? Are you saying the lockdowns are unnecessary and this is all a political stunt by mayors of large cities?
The point is, the opposing party tries to harness the natural frustration of people under lockdown to create voting momentum. But it also create general chaos and havoc and turmoil in our society.

The parties thrive on chaos and division. Both of them.

If GOP was in charge of big cities, I think they'd have lockdowns too, because what choices would they have, honestly? I'm sure Dems would make similar anti-lockdown chanrges. I have little doubt.

And please don't tell me about Sweden. Sweden is a place with totally socialized healthcare, so if you get sick you won't lose your life due to no care, your wealth, your house, due to bankruptcy in our current wretched sickcare regime. If we were like Sweden in those aspects, we could talk about this kind of experiment.
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by ochotona » Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:16 am

I'm seeing all kinds of fault lines along racial and political lines today. Well, politics and race share big fault lines.

Here in Harris County TX, white people are quite loathe to wear face masks. The order came from a young female Hispanic County Judge, Lina Hidalgo. I see way more blacks and hispanics wearing masks than whites. I'm Asian ancestry, so masks OK with me.

The Texas capital protestors the other day? As far as I could tell on the TV, all white people.

It would frighten me to no end if it were true that the maybe subconscious emotional root of this rebellion is that #wipipo don't want to take orders from elected brown skinned people.

I am reminded of this from the Cabildo, the Museum of the State of Louisiana. "Any other despotism - DJT".
cabildo_3rd_floor_1.jpg
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by Tortoise » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:15 pm

Mask-wearing behavior seems to be highly regional.

Here in Southern California, although masks aren't mandatory for the general public, close to 100% of people I see out in public are wearing them -- regardless of race or age.

Maybe it's largely a conservative vs. liberal thing? To the extent that conservative politics are more prevalent among white Texans than black and Hispanic Texans, maybe the people not wearing masks are generally conservatives who would rather choose whether to wear a mask instead of a government bureaucrat forcing them to? So maybe for a lot of them, their lack of mask-wearing is a form of civil disobedience based on conservative politics?

So I'm not sure why white Texans' lack of mask-wearing has to be viewed as primarily a racial thing when it may just be a political thing.
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:58 pm

https://youtu.be/xfLVxx_lBLU

Lot’s of interesting data and questions raised in this interview. Over an hour but you can get the drift in 10 or so.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by stuper1 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:49 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 12:15 pm
Mask-wearing behavior seems to be highly regional.

Here in Southern California, although masks aren't mandatory for the general public, close to 100% of people I see out in public are wearing them -- regardless of race or age.

Maybe it's largely a conservative vs. liberal thing? To the extent that conservative politics are more prevalent among white Texans than black and Hispanic Texans, maybe the people not wearing masks are generally conservatives who would rather choose whether to wear a mask instead of a government bureaucrat forcing them to? So maybe for a lot of them, their lack of mask-wearing is a form of civil disobedience based on conservative politics?

So I'm not sure why white Texans' lack of mask-wearing has to be viewed as primarily a racial thing when it may just be a political thing.
Isn't this so common too that people who claim to be against racism are actually more racist than the people they accuse of racism. What is that saying "we become what we fear" or something like that. It's very hard to read people's minds. I might think that somebody is racist, but actually they are acting under completely different motivations.
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by Tortoise » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:58 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:49 pm
Isn't this so common too that people who claim to be against racism are actually more racist than the people they accuse of racism. What is that saying "we become what we fear" or something like that. It's very hard to read people's minds. I might think that somebody is racist, but actually they are acting under completely different motivations.
Good point. Assuming racism is the motivation for too many things is another example of the "correlation equals causation" fallacy.

Race is correlated with various things such as culture and politics, but culture and politics are more abstract and invisible whereas skin color is much more concrete and visible. So behavior that's influenced mainly by culture or politics can easily be misidentified as being influenced mainly by race -- simply due to the correlation with skin color.
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by Xan » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:26 pm

So when ochotona says this, what are we to make of it? I know I'm not quite sure.
ochotona wrote:
Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:16 am
I'm Asian ancestry, so masks OK with me.
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Re: Why Left Supports Lockdown?

Post by stuper1 » Mon Apr 27, 2020 3:11 pm

Sounds racist to me.
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