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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:33 pm
by Kriegsspiel
vnatale wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:45 pm


Capture.JPG
Well, it was made in China.

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:20 am
by Mountaineer
vnatale wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:45 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:40 pm
Goddamit does everything have to be political? Is there no one without a hard right or hard left agenda?

To the lefties, I would say, send kids back to school. You have to assume there will never be an effective vaccine. Live with it and be safe, but not to the point of complete disruption. Or are you really going to lock yourself away forever?

To the righties, I would say, just wear a damn mask whether you think it helps or not. At a minimum if you all do, and two weeks from now the case rate does not drop, well then what BS are the lefties going to have left to pull out of their ass? They weren't wearing them right? They were 5 feet apart and not 6?

This, I would say, is what the majority of people are thinking. Tell me if I am wrong. But no, all we hear are the extreme right and left sides and I am sick of it.
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Medical office memo.

.

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:23 am
by WiseOne
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:40 pm
Goddamit does everything have to be political? Is there no one without a hard right or hard left agenda?

To the lefties, I would say, send kids back to school. You have to assume there will never be an effective vaccine. Live with it and be safe, but not to the point of complete disruption. Or are you really going to lock yourself away forever?

To the righties, I would say, just wear a damn mask whether you think it helps or not. At a minimum if you all do, and two weeks from now the case rate does not drop, well then what BS are the lefties going to have left to pull out of their ass? They weren't wearing them right? They were 5 feet apart and not 6?

This, I would say, is what the majority of people are thinking. Tell me if I am wrong. But no, all we hear are the extreme right and left sides and I am sick of it.
Along those lines....it would be worth if it we could all cope with faithfully wearing masks for 2 weeks. Just to prove how ridiculous is the latest claim by the CDC that the coronavirus would be eliminated if that were to occur.

I am satisfied, by the way, that there is enough anecdotal evidence to support mask wearing indoors in situations with likely prolonged and close-quarter contact with other people - realizing that the mechanism is to reduce (not eliminate) spread FROM people who are shedding enough virus to infect others. That is, the mask will greatly reduce droplet spread. It probably does little to reduce aerosol spread, and it may encourage people who are sick to go out. Most transmission is from people exhibiting symptoms. Staying home if you're sick is likely to be much more effective than wearing a mask, and that should be the first line of defense.

I hope that clarifies my view. You can decide if that's "hard right". It's definitely not hard left.

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:58 am
by Cortopassi
I am not saying anyone here is necessarily hard left or right (but there are examples...)

I have at least one friend who has quit Facebook over this. When I look at my feed (rarely) it is completely populated by those who say masks are BS, Covid is just the flu on one side and and those who don't think school should ever start until there's a vaccine on the other.

These are people who'd get along fine in normal situations, but this has exposed some major differences which I fear won't be healed easily. Which is why I continue to try to tread in the middle, and except for this forum, I stay totally silent.

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:04 am
by dualstow
Russian 'Cozy Bear' hackers targeting Covid vaccine technology
Coronavirus: Russian spies target Covid-19 vaccine research
By Gordon Corera & Chris Fox
BBC News
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53429506
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:40 pm
Goddamit does everything have to be political? Is there no one without a hard right or hard left agenda?
{raises hand}

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:12 am
by Tyler
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:58 am
I am not saying anyone here is necessarily hard left or right (but there are examples...)

I have at least one friend who has quit Facebook over this. When I look at my feed (rarely) it is completely populated by those who say masks are BS, Covid is just the flu on one side and and those who don't think school should ever start until there's a vaccine on the other.

These are people who'd get along fine in normal situations, but this has exposed some major differences which I fear won't be healed easily. Which is why I continue to try to tread in the middle, and except for this forum, I stay totally silent.
Yeah, I totally understand your frustration. The combination of life-altering lockdowns and an election year is the perfect storm to drive lots of people crazy. Even for those with level heads, it's really hard to avoid the people who are all-in on one narrative or another. It's exhausting.

But seriously, you should probably avoid Facebook regardless. ;)

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:17 am
by Hal
On a lighter note...

Protestors in Victoria and policemans reaction 1:55 mark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyQcmo16Geg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-4P1WPE-Qg

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:30 am
by flyingpylon
One of the things that frustrates me the most about this whole situation is the moving goalposts for reopening, or the lack of any goalposts at all. I think that contributes to all of the emotional reactions. Has anyone anywhere actually articulated a set of metrics for reopening?

An analogy many of us here are familiar with is that when you pull your money out of the stock market, how do you know when to get back in? So glad I've moved past that dilemma!

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:46 am
by vnatale
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Capture.JPG (75.26 KiB) Viewed 5038 times

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:57 am
by WiseOne
flyingpylon wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:30 am
One of the things that frustrates me the most about this whole situation is the moving goalposts for reopening, or the lack of any goalposts at all. I think that contributes to all of the emotional reactions. Has anyone anywhere actually articulated a set of metrics for reopening?
Sure. When it's "safe". Given that walking out of your cocoon, oops I mean home can never be guaranteed safe, reopening will not happen until people decide en masse just to do it and to heck with the rules. I give that about another 6 - 8 months....doubt very much it will take a year.

I'm not sure what will happen to schools and other government institutions though. They may continue to operate in "safe" mode for years. In which case private alternatives, like homeschool groups, will naturally spring up. That will be delightful to watch.

"Safe? This is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of."

--- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:00 am
by Xan
WiseOne wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:57 am
flyingpylon wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:30 am
One of the things that frustrates me the most about this whole situation is the moving goalposts for reopening, or the lack of any goalposts at all. I think that contributes to all of the emotional reactions. Has anyone anywhere actually articulated a set of metrics for reopening?
Sure. When it's "safe". Given that walking out of your cocoon, oops I mean home can never be guaranteed safe, reopening will not happen until people decide en masse just to do it and to heck with the rules. I give that about another 6 - 8 months....doubt very much it will take a year.

I'm not sure what will happen to schools and other government institutions though. They may continue to operate in "safe" mode for years. In which case private alternatives, like homeschool groups, will naturally spring up. That will be delightful to watch.

"Safe? This is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of."

--- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams
What's really frustrating right now is that we were set to start private school in the fall, and the school wants to be open, in person. The public school decided they'd do online only for the first three weeks. (As an aside, I think they're leading people on and have no intention of opening after that.) The NEXT DAY, the local health authority banned ALL schools from being open for those three weeks.

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:06 am
by Mountaineer
This is an excerpt from 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, one of my all-time favorite books.

This guidance helps me proactively deal with frustration and control issues. Perhaps it may help others in dealing with the hard left, hard right, cancel culture, social unrest, mask or no mask, Covid-19, etc. issues. The first step in dealing with a problem is to recognize the problem. Many times the problem is me: my paradigms and my desire to be in control.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/n3ws9p5pljunq ... 6.pdf?dl=0

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:18 am
by Cortopassi
WiseOne wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:57 am
I give that about another 6 - 8 months....doubt very much it will take a year.
Yeah, that's the good thing. There will be an end to this one way or the other. It can't keep on this way forever.

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:12 pm
by flyingpylon
MangoMan wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:12 am
I rarely go on Facebook and occasionally on Twitter, but I literally never post. People are insane and there is no one in the center; everyone is hard left or right.

My son just told me his 4 year old daughter (my granddaughter) is running a fever. She hasn't been around anyone except my ex-wife who feels fine. They went to get her tested for COVID just in case and were told it would take 3 days minimum to get a result. That's ridiculous. Do my son and his wife need to put their lives on hold bc the kid might have the virus? Forget arguing about masks if they can't get results in a reasonable time frame.
My social media policy is "read only". I don't even "like" anything... leave no trace, lol.

3 days for results seems to be on the low end of the scale. Some colleges are saying they will require a COVID test done within 10 days of arrival and parents are complaining that results are taking 2-3 weeks in their area, or are completely unavailable to people with no symptoms. So availability and turnaround time seem to vary widely. My city is offering free tests to all residents with a 3-day turnaround.

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:58 pm
by Tortoise
flyingpylon wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:12 pm
Some colleges are saying they will require a COVID test done within 10 days of arrival [...]
The public health equivalent of security theater.

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:23 pm
by jalanlong
WiseOne wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:23 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:40 pm
Goddamit does everything have to be political? Is there no one without a hard right or hard left agenda?

To the lefties, I would say, send kids back to school. You have to assume there will never be an effective vaccine. Live with it and be safe, but not to the point of complete disruption. Or are you really going to lock yourself away forever?

To the righties, I would say, just wear a damn mask whether you think it helps or not. At a minimum if you all do, and two weeks from now the case rate does not drop, well then what BS are the lefties going to have left to pull out of their ass? They weren't wearing them right? They were 5 feet apart and not 6?

This, I would say, is what the majority of people are thinking. Tell me if I am wrong. But no, all we hear are the extreme right and left sides and I am sick of it.
Along those lines....it would be worth if it we could all cope with faithfully wearing masks for 2 weeks. Just to prove how ridiculous is the latest claim by the CDC that the coronavirus would be eliminated if that were to occur.

I am satisfied, by the way, that there is enough anecdotal evidence to support mask wearing indoors in situations with likely prolonged and close-quarter contact with other people - realizing that the mechanism is to reduce (not eliminate) spread FROM people who are shedding enough virus to infect others. That is, the mask will greatly reduce droplet spread. It probably does little to reduce aerosol spread, and it may encourage people who are sick to go out. Most transmission is from people exhibiting symptoms. Staying home if you're sick is likely to be much more effective than wearing a mask, and that should be the first line of defense.

I hope that clarifies my view. You can decide if that's "hard right". It's definitely not hard left.
i believe that even if every single person everywhere wore a mask then when the numbers did not decrease then they are going to say that everyone did not comply. The governor here is already prepping that. He instituted the mandatory mask rule but then as cases continue to spike he says that people complying is the only way to avoid another shutdown. That way he puts the responsibility on the citizens like any good parent would right? You know I didn't want to do this but you guys made me.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/loca ... bott-says/

The stuff that drives me crazy is that I have to put on a mask to go into a restaurant and then walk 20 feet to my table, Then I can take it off. I would love for an expert to calculate for me the chances of catching or spreading a virus in that 20 foot walk. Especially when the restaurant is running at 25% capacity by state order. But I guess if I question the "anything to keep us safe" crowd then that makes me "hard right".

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:32 pm
by flyingpylon
Tortoise wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:58 pm
flyingpylon wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 12:12 pm
Some colleges are saying they will require a COVID test done within 10 days of arrival [...]
The public health equivalent of security theater.
Oh I agree, but just like security theater you have to put up with certain things to get where you're going.

IMO it's just another ass-covering exercise. COVID-19 is a huge financial and legal threat, and you can see it in the decisions they make and the messaging that goes along with it.

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:34 pm
by jalanlong
flyingpylon wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:30 am
One of the things that frustrates me the most about this whole situation is the moving goalposts for reopening, or the lack of any goalposts at all. I think that contributes to all of the emotional reactions. Has anyone anywhere actually articulated a set of metrics for reopening?

An analogy many of us here are familiar with is that when you pull your money out of the stock market, how do you know when to get back in? So glad I've moved past that dilemma!
That has been my issue from the very beginning. I need to know exactly what you are asking me to do, why and for how long. And I want to know the end game. Moving the goalposts from not overrunning hospitals to "slowing the spread" is a typical government tactic but Americans have let them get away with it. I personally know very few people who are in favor of shutdowns. But the ones I do cannot articulate any sort of definitive statement as to what would be acceptable to reopen. They will go with either a vaccine being available or "until we get a handle on this". Even a vaccine would just move the goalpost to waiting to see how well it works, any effects etc.

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:36 pm
by Tortoise
jalanlong wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:23 pm
The stuff that drives me crazy is that I have to put on a mask to go into a restaurant and then walk 20 feet to my table, Then I can take it off. I would love for an expert to calculate for me the chances of catching or spreading a virus in that 20 foot walk. Especially when the restaurant is running at 25% capacity by state order.
I think the rationale is that when you're sitting at your table, your group is separated from other customers by at least six feet due to the table separation, so taking your mask off is fine. But when you're walking to/from your table, to/from the restroom, etc., you could potentially come closer than six feet to another customer (e.g., walking past each other in the hallway leading to the restroom) -- hence mask required.

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:39 pm
by jalanlong
WiseOne wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:57 am
flyingpylon wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:30 am
One of the things that frustrates me the most about this whole situation is the moving goalposts for reopening, or the lack of any goalposts at all. I think that contributes to all of the emotional reactions. Has anyone anywhere actually articulated a set of metrics for reopening?
Sure. When it's "safe". Given that walking out of your cocoon, oops I mean home can never be guaranteed safe, reopening will not happen until people decide en masse just to do it and to heck with the rules. I give that about another 6 - 8 months....doubt very much it will take a year.

I'm not sure what will happen to schools and other government institutions though. They may continue to operate in "safe" mode for years. In which case private alternatives, like homeschool groups, will naturally spring up. That will be delightful to watch.

"Safe? This is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of."

--- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams
I gave the entire thing a 4-6 weeks before people's attention spans waned and they started wanting to go to the movies, concerts, sporting events, vacations etc. I am just shocked at the number of people who are apparently willing to shelter in place in perpetuity. If they do it long enough it could theoretically become a new normal as people forget what it used to be like to go places and do things.

I think that sports like MLB should be very careful about shutting down too long. It is possible that after a long absence people could really forget about them. I feel like they should be leading the charge to get back or else run the risk of being forgotten in the "new world order".

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:00 pm
by jalanlong
Tortoise wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:36 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:23 pm
The stuff that drives me crazy is that I have to put on a mask to go into a restaurant and then walk 20 feet to my table, Then I can take it off. I would love for an expert to calculate for me the chances of catching or spreading a virus in that 20 foot walk. Especially when the restaurant is running at 25% capacity by state order.
I think the rationale is that when you're sitting at your table, your group is separated from other customers by at least six feet due to the table separation, so taking your mask off is fine. But when you're walking to/from your table, to/from the restroom, etc., you could potentially come closer than six feet to another customer (e.g., walking past each other in the hallway leading to the restroom) -- hence mask required.
The restaurants here are capped at 25% capacity and really they are not that busy because everyone is too scared to go out. So the ones I have been to only have a handful of people there. So do a calculation of the odds that in the 5 seconds it takes me to walk to my table that I pass one of those handful of people closer than 6 feet and one or the other of us has the virus and then sneezes or coughs, causing the other one to catch it. I would say that whatever those odds are, if that is the level of risk that we are unwilling to accept then we should just be shut down entirely. And really at that level of risk avoidance I shouldn't be driving to the restaurant in the first place. Or eating the Mexican food and soda either.

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:02 pm
by vnatale
jalanlong wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:39 pm
WiseOne wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:57 am
flyingpylon wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:30 am
One of the things that frustrates me the most about this whole situation is the moving goalposts for reopening, or the lack of any goalposts at all. I think that contributes to all of the emotional reactions. Has anyone anywhere actually articulated a set of metrics for reopening?
Sure. When it's "safe". Given that walking out of your cocoon, oops I mean home can never be guaranteed safe, reopening will not happen until people decide en masse just to do it and to heck with the rules. I give that about another 6 - 8 months....doubt very much it will take a year.

I'm not sure what will happen to schools and other government institutions though. They may continue to operate in "safe" mode for years. In which case private alternatives, like homeschool groups, will naturally spring up. That will be delightful to watch.

"Safe? This is obviously some strange usage of the word 'safe' that I wasn't previously aware of."

--- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams
I gave the entire thing a 4-6 weeks before people's attention spans waned and they started wanting to go to the movies, concerts, sporting events, vacations etc. I am just shocked at the number of people who are apparently willing to shelter in place in perpetuity. If they do it long enough it could theoretically become a new normal as people forget what it used to be like to go places and do things.

I think that sports like MLB should be very careful about shutting down too long. It is possible that after a long absence people could really forget about them. I feel like they should be leading the charge to get back or else run the risk of being forgotten in the "new world order".
MLB is starting back up in less than two weeks.

Vinny

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:46 pm
by Cortopassi
Here's our HS district plan. At least they are giving it a shot. There is an option for being at home as well.

Image

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:24 pm
by jalanlong
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:46 pm
Here's our HS district plan. At least they are giving it a shot. There is an option for being at home as well.

Image
Did they give you any idea as to how many people had signed up for each, physical vs remote? My district released that information last night and 75% of parents chose to sends their kids back. Interestingly the choice to go back or not seemed to be kind of random from school to school and not really patterned according to geographic or socioeconomic lines from what I can tell. Some schools were almost 100% wanting to go back and some were in the 50%s.

Also what is also interesting to me is that the 75% choosing to go back goes against earlier questionnaires (and local news polls) where only 50% of parents were planning on sending their kids back. So either the polls were wrong, or parents opinions changed in the last month (with a surge in cases happening) or what parents "want" to do vs what they can actually do are two different things.

Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Posted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 5:19 pm
by Cortopassi
We don’t have to elect anything as far as I know. If you see in the upper right, you have a daily choice to go in or from home, which is quite (crazy?) flexible.

I did just see on the news that the Chicago Teacher’s Union is saying teachers should not go back in the classroom until there is a vaccine.

I can’t wait to see what happens there. Can someone in power just come out and say a real vaccine is likely undoable? Should end up like Reagan and the air traffic controllers. You don’t want to work, we’ll find a replacement. Maybe that’s harsh, but many Chicago students are already at a disadvantage. Make it online, and good luck getting many to even log in.