Coronavirus General Discussion

[jalanlong]

Why aren't more people speaking up about this?

My sense is they are starting to speak up. Especially when it comes to schools. There is a very vocal minority about wanting online only, maybe in perpetuity. But the vast, currently mostly silent majority want schools to reopen. If it comes to a head, I, and I am sure a lot of others won't remain silent anymore. We had a "thought exchange" online commenting to the high school district about what they should do a few weeks ago. The vast majority want schools to open, and accept the risk.

I am, for about the next 2 weeks, ok with letting the media have its day with the breaking news, and surge in cases, yada yada. If those don't translate into a material increase in deaths, then I will call bullshit. Not sure what one guy can do, but I know most others are of the same feeling. If the school district goes online, I can't imagine the uproar on taxes. If Notre Dame goes online, I don't think it is worth $72k a year anymore.

Everything hinges on the next month and a half, and certainly I believe California is going in the wrong direction on schools. I hope IL does not follow.

So I assume you do not think that the polls are accurately capturing this silent majority? Because national polls support that we reopened "too early" (whatever that means) and support forced masks etc. And if you do not believe those sorts of polls, my local school district in North Texas sent a questionnaire to parents as of their preferences for the school year. It was almost 50/50 whether to go back to school or do online only. And that is 50/50 in a very Red area before the recent surge. When the questionnaire asked if cases started to spike would you be comfortable sending your child back to school, 81% said no.

I get a different sense than you. I get a sense that people who want to reopen and try to bring life back to some sort of normalcy are feeling very outnumbered, defeated and giving up. I mean when you live in Texas controlled by a Republican governor, Republican Lt Governor and Republican Legislature and they have mandated masks and are talking about shutting down a second time then really what hope is there?

My son has high-functioning autism. We home schooled for years and finally decided to try public school last year. After a rough start he did amazingly well and the teachers were awesome with him. Then suddenly it was all taken away. So for 6 months he has had no school, no contact with his school friends, we cannot go to the movies, parks were closed until recently and most of the restaurants he likes are still not reopen. If he does get to go back in a month (which I highly doubt) they will require so much protection for him (masks, eating lunch 6 feet apart at your desk etc) that it will suck all of the fun out of it and become so rigid he will fight against it. Honestly I am really beaten down by it all and i just don't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

[Cortopassi]

jalanlong,

I am sorry to hear that. I am in a suburb of Chicago. Most suburbs tend red around here, but I am sure nowhere like Texas. I have yet to find anyone hard against going back to school. We are supposed to get an update from the district this week.

I dare say that it is partially due to the consistent messaging from our governor all along the way. Of course there were mistakes and missteps, but you knew/know what the phases were and we seem to be reasonably successful as a state with a huge city in keeping cases down. You might dislike the guy, (pug..!) but the numbers are the numbers and so far so good.

I didn't know there was national polling on this. I actually don't care, as long as IL and IN (Notre Dame) are doing well.

[Tortoise]

I am, for about the next 2 weeks, ok with letting the media have its day with the breaking news, and surge in cases, yada yada. If those don't translate into a material increase in deaths, then I will call bullshit.

One thing to keep in mind when you look at death stats is that around 1/3 of the excess deaths (increase in total deaths compared to the historical average) are not caused by Covid-19 -- they're caused by diabetes, heart disease, Alzheimer's, and stroke patients who likely died because of delaying important medical care during the pandemic:
https://www.studyfinds.org/u-s-death-ra ... -covid-19/

Compared to January and February averages, diabetes deaths rose by 96 percent in those states. Deaths tied to heart disease (89%), Alzheimer’s disease (64%), and stroke (35%) also saw disturbing jumps. The study adds deaths in New York City due to heart disease and diabetes both rose by over 350 percent during that time.

If the school district goes online, I can't imagine the uproar on taxes.

Oh, you can bet that taxes will be increased regardless of what schools choose to do. The tax revenue shortfall due to all of the business lockdowns and restrictions will guarantee that.

Regarding the risk of sending children back to school in-person, the evidence strongly suggests it's minimal. This study found that children under 16 years old account for < 2% of COVID cases, with "no documentation of child-to-child or child-to-adult transmission":
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/ ... .2020-1576

[jalanlong]

I am, for about the next 2 weeks, ok with letting the media have its day with the breaking news, and surge in cases, yada yada. If those don't translate into a material increase in deaths, then I will call bullshit.

One thing to keep in mind when you look at death stats is that around 1/3 of the excess deaths (increase in total deaths compared to the historical average) are not caused by Covid-19 -- they're caused by diabetes, heart disease, Alzheimer's, and stroke patients who likely died because of delaying important medical care during the pandemic:
https://www.studyfinds.org/u-s-death-ra ... -covid-19/

Compared to January and February averages, diabetes deaths rose by 96 percent in those states. Deaths tied to heart disease (89%), Alzheimer’s disease (64%), and stroke (35%) also saw disturbing jumps. The study adds deaths in New York City due to heart disease and diabetes both rose by over 350 percent during that time.

If the school district goes online, I can't imagine the uproar on taxes.

Oh, you can bet that taxes will be increased regardless of what schools choose to do. The tax revenue shortfall due to all of the business lockdowns and restrictions will guarantee that.

Regarding the risk of sending children back to school in-person, the evidence strongly suggests it's minimal. This study found that children under 16 years old account for < 2% of COVID cases, with "no documentation of child-to-child or child-to-adult transmission":
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/ ... .2020-1576

Forget evidence. What if YOUR kid were in the 2%? How would you feel then? Even one life is too many! (read sarcasm)

I am seriously so beaten by all of this. As much as I want my child back in school for a variety of reasons, I am also very aware of the craziness that is going to surround all of it. The constant focus on staying far apart, not touching what other kids have touched, not touching each other, not eating together. Essentially making school the opposite of what it is meant to be (at least in 5th grade). And after all that if just one child in the school comes down with it (no matter how mild the symptoms) parents and teachers will freak out and demand everything be shut down.

As an aside, the online schooling last year was a joke. I know they had no time to prepare it but the lessons seemed to be just whatever they could find and didn't have a lot of rhyme or reason to them. My understanding is that a lot of kids barely participated. My son got an award for doing the most online lessons out of the entire class and I didn't think he did very many. It probably took him all of 30 mins every day to do the work. But this year they claim the work will be tougher, there will be "dress codes" for the Zoom meetings and they are going to crack down on work not being done.

[Cortopassi]

Regarding the risk of sending children back to school in-person, the evidence strongly suggests it's minimal. This study found that children under 16 years old account for < 2% of COVID cases, with "no documentation of child-to-child or child-to-adult transmission":
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/ ... .2020-1576

I'm pretty sure the teacher risk will continue to be pushed, and when a huge amount of kids go back to school, and those first few teachers get sick, it will become a news story without end. I do not look forward to that.

The number of deaths "due" to Covid, but without actually having it are going to be incalculable. Stress will silently kill a lot of people in many different ways.

jalanlong, you should take comfort in the fact that the young people rate of death is exceedingly small.

[Tortoise]

Regarding the risk of sending children back to school in-person, the evidence strongly suggests it's minimal. This study found that children under 16 years old account for < 2% of COVID cases, with "no documentation of child-to-child or child-to-adult transmission":
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/ ... .2020-1576

Forget evidence. What if YOUR kid were in the 2%? How would you feel then? Even one life is too many!

If my (not yet born) kid were in those 2% of cases, then the stats say she would most likely be asymptomatic. Small chance she might get a slight cough or a runny nose. And effectively a 0% chance she would be hospitalized or die.

Statistically, driving your kid to and from school poses a far greater risk to her of harm or death than Covid-19 does.

[jalanlong]

Regarding the risk of sending children back to school in-person, the evidence strongly suggests it's minimal. This study found that children under 16 years old account for < 2% of COVID cases, with "no documentation of child-to-child or child-to-adult transmission":
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/ ... .2020-1576

Forget evidence. What if YOUR kid were in the 2%? How would you feel then? Even one life is too many!

If my (not yet born) kid were in those 2% of cases, then the stats say she would most likely be asymptomatic. Small chance she might get a slight cough or a runny nose. And effectively a 0% chance she would be hospitalized or die.

Statistically, driving your kid to and from school poses a far greater risk to her of harm or death than Covid-19 does.

So are you telling me that if the media started reporting every single day ad nauseam how many people were hospitalized or died today on the roads then we would all have our cars taken from us? I feel like that is what you are saying.

[Tortoise]

So are you telling me that if the media started reporting every single day ad nauseam how many people were hospitalized or died today on the roads then we would all have our cars taken from us? I feel like that is what you are saying.

Yes, basically.

We already had the automobile risk "conversation" many decades ago when our nation hadn't yet gone full retard, and we collectively reached the fairly sensible conclusion that the benefits of driving outweigh the risk of injury or death.

[Libertarian666]

So are you telling me that if the media started reporting every single day ad nauseam how many people were hospitalized or died today on the roads then we would all have our cars taken from us? I feel like that is what you are saying.

Yes, basically.

We already had the automobile risk "conversation" many decades ago when our nation hadn't yet gone full retard, and we collectively reached the fairly sensible conclusion that the benefits of driving outweigh the risk of injury or death.

Yes, this sort of hysteria has been whipped up on numerous occasions, often with very bad outcomes.
Nuclear power, for example, has been unfairly maligned, with the result that many more people have died from coal emissions.

[dualstow]

And why they've been wearing them in Asia for years?

Yes, people in Asia have long worn masks outside. But it's not about viruses -- it's about air pollution. If you could smell the haze in Shenzhen or the exhaust of scooters in Taipei, you'd wear a mask too.

Both, really. Scooter riders will often wear a mask in Taipei because they sit behind the tailpipes of trucks all day, but you will also see masks on planes, on buses and in doctor's offices for more biological reasons.

[vnatale]

So are you telling me that if the media started reporting every single day ad nauseam how many people were hospitalized or died today on the roads then we would all have our cars taken from us? I feel like that is what you are saying.

Yes, basically.

We already had the automobile risk "conversation" many decades ago when our nation hadn't yet gone full retard, and we collectively reached the fairly sensible conclusion that the benefits of driving outweigh the risk of injury or death.

Yes, this sort of hysteria has been whipped up on numerous occasions, often with very bad outcomes.
Nuclear power, for example, has been unfairly maligned, with the result that many more people have died from coal emissions.

Is it true, however, that all of our homeowners' insurance policies continue to exclude damage due to a nuclear accident?

Vinny

[Mark Leavy]

My son has high-functioning autism. We home schooled for years and finally decided to try public school last year. After a rough start he did amazingly well and the teachers were awesome with him. Then suddenly it was all taken away. So for 6 months he has had no school, no contact with his school friends, we cannot go to the movies, parks were closed until recently and most of the restaurants he likes are still not reopen. If he does get to go back in a month (which I highly doubt) they will require so much protection for him (masks, eating lunch 6 feet apart at your desk etc) that it will suck all of the fun out of it and become so rigid he will fight against it. Honestly I am really beaten down by it all and i just don't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

Just Damn, jalanlong.
I've never been exactly in your situation, but I've been close. More than once.
Just reading your story hurts. The world is really in a fucked up place right now. I can't imagine what I would do in your situation.

I've been burying my head in the sand and profiteering for the last few months, but I wonder how much longer I can do that and still look myself in the eye.

Mark

[Xan]

Well, the city/county (jointly, somehow) have closed all the schools until at least September 7. This is a 3-week delay on opening. The governor may have something to say about it. We'll see.

https://austintexas.gov/news/local-heal ... and-orders

Edit: that's both public (which you could say they have basically unlimited right to control) AND private (which they do not).

PS - The ".gov" top-level-domain is meant for US federal government entities. Not for cities in the United States. Bugs me to see that kind of thing. End rant.

[Tyler]

Both, really. Scooter riders will often wear a mask in Taipei because they sit behind the tailpipes of trucks all day, but you will also see masks on planes, on buses and in doctor's offices for more biological reasons.

Fair enough. I personally never really saw them on planes or in the areas I would frequent, but to be fair everyday life could be different beyond my own sphere of experience.

[Libertarian666]

Well, the city/county (jointly, somehow) have closed all the schools until at least September 7. This is a 3-week delay on opening. The governor may have something to say about it. We'll see.

https://austintexas.gov/news/local-heal ... and-orders

PS - The ".gov" top-level-domain is meant for US federal government entities. Not for cities in the United States. Bugs me to see that kind of thing. End rant.

According to wikipedia (yeah, I know but this isn't political as far as I can tell):
"The .gov TLD is limited to United States governmental entities and agencies as well as qualifying state, county and local municipal government agencies."

[Xan]

According to wikipedia (yeah, I know but this isn't political as far as I can tell):
"The .gov TLD is limited to United States governmental entities and agencies as well as qualifying state, county and local municipal government agencies."

That was a later expansion and (IMHO) an ill-considered one. But we digress!

[jalanlong]

Well, the city/county (jointly, somehow) have closed all the schools until at least September 7. This is a 3-week delay on opening. The governor may have something to say about it. We'll see.

https://austintexas.gov/news/local-heal ... and-orders

Edit: that's both public (which you could say they have basically unlimited right to control) AND private (which they do not).

PS - The ".gov" top-level-domain is meant for US federal government entities. Not for cities in the United States. Bugs me to see that kind of thing. End rant.

That is coming to Dallas no doubt. The question is whether the suburbs will go their own way or follow Dallas? My local district sent an email tonight that says our son’s elementary school currently has 81% registered to go back in person and 19% choosing to do online only. So there might be some angry parents if the district decides to delay.

[vnatale]

Capture.JPG (35.16 KiB) Viewed 5439 times

[Xan]

Well, the city/county (jointly, somehow) have closed all the schools until at least September 7. This is a 3-week delay on opening. The governor may have something to say about it. We'll see.

https://austintexas.gov/news/local-heal ... and-orders

Edit: that's both public (which you could say they have basically unlimited right to control) AND private (which they do not).

PS - The ".gov" top-level-domain is meant for US federal government entities. Not for cities in the United States. Bugs me to see that kind of thing. End rant.

That is coming to Dallas no doubt. The question is whether the suburbs will go their own way or follow Dallas? My local district sent an email tonight that says our son’s elementary school currently has 81% registered to go back in person and 19% choosing to do online only. So there might be some angry parents if the district decides to delay.

If it's a county-level thing, then that would pretty much cover the suburbs.

[jalanlong]

Well, the city/county (jointly, somehow) have closed all the schools until at least September 7. This is a 3-week delay on opening. The governor may have something to say about it. We'll see.

https://austintexas.gov/news/local-heal ... and-orders

Edit: that's both public (which you could say they have basically unlimited right to control) AND private (which they do not).

PS - The ".gov" top-level-domain is meant for US federal government entities. Not for cities in the United States. Bugs me to see that kind of thing. End rant.

That is coming to Dallas no doubt. The question is whether the suburbs will go their own way or follow Dallas? My local district sent an email tonight that says our son’s elementary school currently has 81% registered to go back in person and 19% choosing to do online only. So there might be some angry parents if the district decides to delay.

If it's a county-level thing, then that would pretty much cover the suburbs.

My understanding is that it’s a district decision. We are in Collin County, not Dallas. The farther North you get from Dallas the sentiment seems to get a lot stronger to going back to school. Dallas ISD (or at least the loudest voices there) seems very worried about virus transmission, school staff with underlying health concerns or carrying it home to their families etc. I think there is no way they are going back. Certainly not before Labor Day.

[WiseOne]

My son has high-functioning autism. We home schooled for years and finally decided to try public school last year. After a rough start he did amazingly well and the teachers were awesome with him. Then suddenly it was all taken away. So for 6 months he has had no school, no contact with his school friends, we cannot go to the movies, parks were closed until recently and most of the restaurants he likes are still not reopen. If he does get to go back in a month (which I highly doubt) they will require so much protection for him (masks, eating lunch 6 feet apart at your desk etc) that it will suck all of the fun out of it and become so rigid he will fight against it. Honestly I am really beaten down by it all and i just don't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

So sorry to hear this Jalanlong.

Multiply this by several million and you have an idea what I've been squawking about. I'm dealing with something similar with my 84 year old mom. I finally decided that for her, getting COVID and dying from it would be far preferable to having her spend what is likely to be a substantial portion of the rest of her life suffering from depression and anxiety, worsening her cognition, due to lockdown restrictions.

BTW regarding the school issue...here's a hilarious article with media video clip, where an MSNBC host looks completely befuddled when a panel of pediatricians unanimously stated they would send their kids back to school:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/wash ... k-to-class

[jalanlong]

My son has high-functioning autism. We home schooled for years and finally decided to try public school last year. After a rough start he did amazingly well and the teachers were awesome with him. Then suddenly it was all taken away. So for 6 months he has had no school, no contact with his school friends, we cannot go to the movies, parks were closed until recently and most of the restaurants he likes are still not reopen. If he does get to go back in a month (which I highly doubt) they will require so much protection for him (masks, eating lunch 6 feet apart at your desk etc) that it will suck all of the fun out of it and become so rigid he will fight against it. Honestly I am really beaten down by it all and i just don't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

So sorry to hear this Jalanlong.

Multiply this by several million and you have an idea what I've been squawking about. I'm dealing with something similar with my 84 year old mom. I finally decided that for her, getting COVID and dying from it would be far preferable to having her spend what is likely to be a substantial portion of the rest of her life suffering from depression and anxiety, worsening her cognition, due to lockdown restrictions.

BTW regarding the school issue...here's a hilarious article with media video clip, where an MSNBC host looks completely befuddled when a panel of pediatricians unanimously stated they would send their kids back to school:

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/wash ... k-to-class

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... &ocid=iehp

Not overwhelming but still, most people are against school reopenings.

[Xan]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... &ocid=iehp

Not overwhelming but still, most people are against school reopenings.

/Technically/, is seems that poll asked whether people agree with the federal government pressuring schools to reopen, which isn't the same as asking whether people believe schools should reopen.

Okay, 99+% of people probably want all levels of government everywhere to push as hard as they can on whatever those people want to have happen. There's basically no understanding of separation of powers anymore. But there may be people who believe that schools should reopen and also that the federal government shouldn't push them to.

[jalanlong]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... &ocid=iehp

Not overwhelming but still, most people are against school reopenings.

/Technically/, is seems that poll asked whether people agree with the federal government pressuring schools to reopen, which isn't the same as asking whether people believe schools should reopen.

Okay, 99+% of people probably want all levels of government everywhere to push as hard as they can on whatever those people want to have happen. There's basically no understanding of separation of powers anymore. But there may be people who believe that schools should reopen and also that the federal government shouldn't push them to.

I don't think the question was asked that way. If you check the survey it says:

Do you support or oppose each of the following fully opening for in-person instruction
for the beginning of the 2020 school year? K-12 schools
Strongly support 404 20%
Somewhat support 349 18%
Somewhat oppose 347 17%
Strongly oppose 710 36%
Don’t Know / No Opinion 182 9%


This one scares me:

Which of the following comes closest to your opinion?
Americans should continue to social distance for as
long as is needed to curb the spread of coronavirus even
if it means continued damage to the economy
1506 76%

Americans should stop social distancing to stimulate
the economy even if it means increasing the spread of
coronavirus
312 16%

Don’t know / No opinion 175 9%

[Xan]

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/ ... &ocid=iehp

Not overwhelming but still, most people are against school reopenings.

/Technically/, is seems that poll asked whether people agree with the federal government pressuring schools to reopen, which isn't the same as asking whether people believe schools should reopen.

Okay, 99+% of people probably want all levels of government everywhere to push as hard as they can on whatever those people want to have happen. There's basically no understanding of separation of powers anymore. But there may be people who believe that schools should reopen and also that the federal government shouldn't push them to.

I don't think the question was asked that way. If you check the survey it says:

Do you support or oppose each of the following fully opening for in-person instruction
for the beginning of the 2020 school year? K-12 schools
Strongly support 404 20%
Somewhat support 349 18%
Somewhat oppose 347 17%
Strongly oppose 710 36%
Don’t Know / No Opinion 182 9%


This one scares me:

Which of the following comes closest to your opinion?
Americans should continue to social distance for as
long as is needed to curb the spread of coronavirus even
if it means continued damage to the economy
1506 76%

Americans should stop social distancing to stimulate
the economy even if it means increasing the spread of
coronavirus
312 16%

Don’t know / No opinion 175 9%

I stand corrected. The MSN article certainly frames the whole thing as a rebuke of the President's policies. But what else is new.

Very scary stuff. Safety-ism may be the most dangerous thing out there right now.