WiseOne wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:09 pmimmunity from group-think is a pre-requisite for being a Trump voter
The rest of your post is brilliant, but I don't think it's possible to be elected president without capturing a significant percentage of the groupthink vote.
Edit: thinking more about your point about narratives: we certainly see the same thing in the financial press, ALL the time. "Markets are up because of XYZ!" or "The market didn't like ABC". Completely bogus. It's making up a story that fits the facts.
Your first point: okay point taken. There is a slice of the electorate who will vote red no matter what. He's got that vote. Other than that, I don't see all that much in the way of groupthink that is running in Trump's favor.
Your second point: YES. It's so intrinsic to everything you almost don't notice it. And the medical literature works the same way: most of it's groupthink as well. Just try writing a paper or grant application that goes against the prevailing view. No matter how carefully you make your case, you won't get anywhere. I truly admire the brave souls who can see past the groupthink to the real story, and disseminate the info clearly. Harry Browne was certainly among them. Based on those two videos, this guy Ivor Cummins is another. I really enjoyed them - seriously guys, highly recommended.
But CV was so quick to happen, cholesterol theory has been entrenched for decades. CV knowledge is changing daily. I don’t see why another viewpoint couldn’t take hold, esp. after Aug and Sept when we see the shit show of online learning pushing a lot of people into the this can’t go on group.
But CV was so quick to happen, cholesterol theory has been entrenched for decades. CV knowledge is changing daily. I don’t see why another viewpoint couldn’t take hold, esp. after Aug and Sept when we see the shit show of online learning pushing a lot of people into the this can’t go on group.
i would love to believe that but after 6 months I just don't have confidence that the "group" is going to be letting this go anytime soon. Now that school is about to start up again, I have started to see headlines in my news feed each day about kids carrying the virus at the same strength as adults and preschools having Covid outbreaks etc. The media is working that angle and I think it will be effective enough to keep schools shut down in most populated areas.
Cortopassi wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:26 pm
Our high school district just flipped to remote start. Sigh....
I am of the opinion most children will not see the inside of a classroom until after Christmas break at the earliest. We were told in March it was just a week off. Then it was extended until mid April. Then the rest of the school year and we will start again in August. Now its September. Why on earth would anyone believe anything they say now?
I still contend the only way to stop this is if every person who is against remote learning (and that was the majority in my district) goes up to the district office or school, withdraws their child and says they are homeschooling. If the district enrollment suddenly dropped by 50-60% overnight, this would all be over.
Cortopassi wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 5:26 pm
Our high school district just flipped to remote start. Sigh....
I am of the opinion most children will not see the inside of a classroom until after Christmas break at the earliest. We were told in March it was just a week off. Then it was extended until mid April. Then the rest of the school year and we will start again in August. Now its September. Why on earth would anyone believe anything they say now?
I still contend the only way to stop this is if every person who is against remote learning (and that was the majority in my district) goes up to the district office or school, withdraws their child and says they are homeschooling. If the district enrollment suddenly dropped by 50-60% overnight, this would all be over.
If you can withdraw your child AND your real estate tax money, I’d believe that.
I still think this issue is what breaks us of the sky is falling everyone is gonna die mentality. A few weeks of remote school, basically nationwide, is going to change a lot of people who were scared.
My opinion. Quite likely wrong. People have to decouple having the virus with going to die. Not there yet. God, what is a bad flu season going to be like in the future? Close it all down? Crazy.
However, I do know an older lady and a 22 year old, friends of friends, who have died. So it is real.
Cortopassi wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:03 pm
I still think this issue is what breaks us of the sky is falling everyone is gonna die mentality. A few weeks of remote school, basically nationwide, is going to change a lot of people who were scared.
My opinion. Quite likely wrong. People have to decouple having the virus with going to die. Not there yet. God, what is a bad flu season going to be like in the future? Close it all down? Crazy.
However, I do know an older lady and a 22 year old, friends of friends, who have died. So it is real.
So what makes people do that decoupling now since they haven’t done it since March? We had remote learning here for 2 months in the Spring. Now we are getting another month (to start with). I just am not feeling that tide turning and I feel like it won’t until the media frenzy moves on. Which may mean Election time. Or maybe not.
Cortopassi wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:03 pm
I still think this issue is what breaks us of the sky is falling everyone is gonna die mentality. A few weeks of remote school, basically nationwide, is going to change a lot of people who were scared.
My opinion. Quite likely wrong. People have to decouple having the virus with going to die. Not there yet. God, what is a bad flu season going to be like in the future? Close it all down? Crazy.
However, I do know an older lady and a 22 year old, friends of friends, who have died. So it is real.
So what makes people do that decoupling now since they haven’t done it since March? We had remote learning here for 2 months in the Spring. Now we are getting another month (to start with). I just am not feeling that tide turning and I feel like it won’t until the media frenzy moves on. Which may mean Election time. Or maybe not.
I don't really know. I deal with/saw a LOT of scared people in March and April. Less in May. Less in June and July. Almost none now.
I think it is a matter of hey, I've lived through this for 6 months. My family has lived through it for 6 months. I know very few or no one close to me who has gotten it, and those that have had little or no symptoms. The only deaths I see are on TV. Maybe this is overblown.
That sort of mental shift is happening for sure with work colleagues and extended family who were originally terrified.
I don't want to diminish those who have died from it by saying all this.
The problem is that the goalposts for returning to school are being moved again. I’m seeing more messages acknowledging that the death rate is low, but we should all be scared of vaguely defined long-term health damages.
In our district it appears that a sufficient number of teachers are reluctant to return or are simply willing to walk away. But it’s also complicated by a poorly-conducted survey of teacher concerns regarding the district’s plans. While on one hand the survey of parents indicated a large majority want the schools to open, there is a lot of very vocal support in the community for teachers. Arguments that are less than 100% supportive of the teachers get shouted down quickly and right now they seem to hold all the cards.
jalanlong wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:07 pm
So what makes people do that decoupling now since they haven’t done it since March? We had remote learning here for 2 months in the Spring. Now we are getting another month (to start with). I just am not feeling that tide turning and I feel like it won’t until the media frenzy moves on. Which may mean Election time. Or maybe not.
I don't really know. I deal with/saw a LOT of scared people in March and April. Less in May. Less in June and July. Almost none now.
I think it is a matter of hey, I've lived through this for 6 months. My family has lived through it for 6 months. I know very few or no one close to me who has gotten it, and those that have had little or no symptoms. The only deaths I see are on TV. Maybe this is overblown.
That sort of mental shift is happening for sure with work colleagues and extended family who were originally terrified.
I don't want to diminish those who have died from it by saying all this.
I am seeing a lot of the same thing, Corto. The only person who comes to mind as still being "afraid" is someone who I think is really enjoying not going in to the office. She also watches a lot of CNN. And actually, several people I work with professed to be scared and that "we shouldn't be working yet" when they were getting paid to stay home, and then thought they wouldn't be able to collect the expanded unemployment benefits. But when they found out they would be able to milk the government for some of that money they stopped being afraid.
jalanlong wrote: ↑Wed Aug 05, 2020 10:07 pm
So what makes people do that decoupling now since they haven’t done it since March? We had remote learning here for 2 months in the Spring. Now we are getting another month (to start with). I just am not feeling that tide turning and I feel like it won’t until the media frenzy moves on. Which may mean Election time. Or maybe not.
I don't really know. I deal with/saw a LOT of scared people in March and April. Less in May. Less in June and July. Almost none now.
I think it is a matter of hey, I've lived through this for 6 months. My family has lived through it for 6 months. I know very few or no one close to me who has gotten it, and those that have had little or no symptoms. The only deaths I see are on TV. Maybe this is overblown.
That sort of mental shift is happening for sure with work colleagues and extended family who were originally terrified.
I don't want to diminish those who have died from it by saying all this.
I am seeing a lot of the same thing, Corto. The only person who comes to mind as still being "afraid" is someone who I think is really enjoying not going in to the office. She also watches a lot of CNN. And actually, several people I work with professed to be scared and that "we shouldn't be working yet" when they were getting paid to stay home, and then thought they wouldn't be able to collect the expanded unemployment benefits. But when they found out they would be able to milk the government for some of that money they stopped being afraid.
As you can see from my earlier posts, I just don't feel the same. Every day when I get to work in an office building that is at present only 20% occupied, we walk in to meet a security guard who berates you if you are not wearing a mask walking 10 feet alone to an empty elevator. The 8 people on my floor all wear masks just to walk to the restrooms in the halls even though there is likely no chance of encountering anyone else. When I get to my desk I pull up an internet news feed where every headline splashed across the page is full of death tolls, new cases, new highs, spiking, family of 30 all gets Covid at a get-together etc. Then at lunch yesterday I went to a fast food place and the person in front of me was in their car alone wearing a mask, rolls down the window and places his order at the menu board with the mask still on. I got a haircut on Sunday and the stylist informed me that "we all have to do our part." And this is North Texas. Supposedly Red Country.
There is a bit of a surge in Texas right now. We're probably at the same spot New York was a couple months ago. We'll probably be where they are now (that is, pretty much over it) in a few more weeks. Then hopefully people will start really wanting to get back to normal.
jalanlong wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:26 am
As you can see from my earlier posts, I just don't feel the same. Every day when I get to work in an office building that is at present only 20% occupied, we walk in to meet a security guard who berates you if you are not wearing a mask walking 10 feet alone to an empty elevator. The 8 people on my floor all wear masks just to walk to the restrooms in the halls even though there is likely no chance of encountering anyone else. When I get to my desk I pull up an internet news feed where every headline splashed across the page is full of death tolls, new cases, new highs, spiking, family of 30 all gets Covid at a get-together etc. Then at lunch yesterday I went to a fast food place and the person in front of me was in their car alone wearing a mask, rolls down the window and places his order at the menu board with the mask still on. I got a haircut on Sunday and the stylist informed me that "we all have to do our part." And this is North Texas. Supposedly Red Country.
I didn't make myself clear, all that stuff is happening at my work too. As per policy, we haven't had a full office in months, we have to wear masks any time we get up from our desks, and we are to to wipe down our work areas when we get there and when we leave. I meant that people have started to be more vocal about how stupid they think it is.
Our boss, when she was reprimanding a few of us for not having our masks on as we were sitting in adjacent desks about 7 feet apart, acknowledged that it doesn't make sense, but please just play along because one of our employees (one who wanted them to keep paying us to stay home), was going above her head and complaining that our rules weren't strict enough so now HQ is on her case about it.
Our desks are large enough that people sitting at adjacent desks are 7 feet apart. The minimum distance we're allowed to sit from each other is 6 feet because that's the magic number. Our boss ignored this fact and told each manager to only have 50% of the desks occupied. One manager had the good idea to hang plastic sheeting from the ceiling between the desks, which makes it perfectly safe for people sit next to each other again.
jalanlong wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 7:26 am
As you can see from my earlier posts, I just don't feel the same. Every day when I get to work in an office building that is at present only 20% occupied, we walk in to meet a security guard who berates you if you are not wearing a mask walking 10 feet alone to an empty elevator. The 8 people on my floor all wear masks just to walk to the restrooms in the halls even though there is likely no chance of encountering anyone else. When I get to my desk I pull up an internet news feed where every headline splashed across the page is full of death tolls, new cases, new highs, spiking, family of 30 all gets Covid at a get-together etc. Then at lunch yesterday I went to a fast food place and the person in front of me was in their car alone wearing a mask, rolls down the window and places his order at the menu board with the mask still on. I got a haircut on Sunday and the stylist informed me that "we all have to do our part." And this is North Texas. Supposedly Red Country.
I didn't make myself clear, all that stuff is happening at my work too. As per policy, we haven't had a full office in months, we have to wear masks any time we get up from our desks, and we are to to wipe down our work areas when we get there and when we leave. I meant that people have started to be more vocal about how stupid they think it is.
Our boss, when she was reprimanding a few of us for not having our masks on as we were sitting in adjacent desks about 7 feet apart, acknowledged that it doesn't make sense, but please just play along because one of our employees (one who wanted them to keep paying us to stay home), was going above her head and complaining that our rules weren't strict enough so now HQ is on her case about it.
Our desks are large enough that people sitting at adjacent desks are 7 feet apart. The minimum distance we're allowed to sit from each other is 6 feet because that's the magic number. Our boss ignored this fact and told each manager to only have 50% of the desks occupied. One manager had the good idea to hang plastic sheeting from the ceiling between the desks, which makes it perfectly safe for people sit next to each other again.
I am just not seeing a change in people. The people I know that thought this was overblown back in March, still feel that way. And the people that were scared and wanted to shut everything down in March still feel that way today as well. I don't see movement on either side really. And I feel that as long as there is a vocal group that is hellbent on keeping things as shut down as possible, even if they are technically a minority, then things like schools, movie theaters, sporting events will stay closed.
Some people argue that because some of the rural or smaller town schools are opening next week, that the bigger schools will see that they can do it successfully and then ultimately be forced to do it themselves. You could see it that way. But it could go the opposite way. If any one of those schools that are opening have even the slightest outbreak of the virus, it will be splashed so hard on the local news headlines that any school that wants to remain closed will have the ammunition to do so.
The hardest thing to break seems the thinking a positive test = near certain death. And there will always be news stories showing this.
I have faith it will end. Either herd immunity, vaccine, burns itself out or good theraputic, by the end of the year, and spring semester starts reasonably normally.
And for those who believe it, when Biden wins in November, maybe it magically starts disappearing, at least as the leading news story...
It just can't go further than that. There is just too much of the economy wrapped up in schools at all levels.
And this is coming from a guy who thankfully has two straight A students and the luxury of a one income family with my wife at home. I cannot imagine two working parents, single parents, kids with disabilities, and such. The stress is going to lead to more deaths than the virus.
Last night as I left my office I saw a new sign at the door. It was not Covid specific but said "STOP THE SPREAD OF GERMS" and gave you tips to do so. Then later in the night my son's remote learning instructions came in from the school district and they too had a PDF linked titled "Stopping the Spread of Germs."
I am no medical professional but aren't we going back in time with that way of thinking? I thought we had learned that exposure to a wide variety of germs (especially at a young age) helped to build strong, healthy immune systems. Am I wrong on that? Is this all being done now to protect those people who have weakened immune systems?
jalanlong wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:43 am
Last night as I left my office I saw a new sign at the door. It was not Covid specific but said "STOP THE SPREAD OF GERMS" and gave you tips to do so. Then later in the night my son's remote learning instructions came in from the school district and they too had a PDF linked titled "Stopping the Spread of Germs."
I am no medical professional but aren't we going back in time with that way of thinking? I thought we had learned that exposure to a wide variety of germs (especially at a young age) helped to build strong, healthy immune systems. Am I wrong on that? Is this all being done now to protect those people who have weakened immune systems?
I don't know if I disclosed this prior here....but do to family circumstances from the ages of 1/2 year to 3 1/2 years I was put in a Catholic "home" for boys. Thus for those three years of my life I was surrounded by other boys of all ages. And, presumably exposed to tons of germs since I was living with all of them. Note: I have ZERO memory of any of this. Just have some pictures of any of this.
From the end of 7th grade to 12th grade never missed a day school. Through 5 1/2 years of college never missed a class due to sickness. Have never missed any work due to being sick.
I always wondered if being exposed to all those germs during those years caused me to develope an extremely healthy immune system.
On the other hand at the age of 4 3/4's years old, I developed a ton of allergies, so severe that I did have a lot of half school days the first half of elementary school (though third grade) due to having to leave to get anti-histamine shots.
Thankfully, once I went through puberty all my allergies (except for hay fever) left me. And, hay fever also finally did leave some time in my 20s.
Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
jalanlong wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:43 am
Last night as I left my office I saw a new sign at the door. It was not Covid specific but said "STOP THE SPREAD OF GERMS" and gave you tips to do so. Then later in the night my son's remote learning instructions came in from the school district and they too had a PDF linked titled "Stopping the Spread of Germs."
I am no medical professional but aren't we going back in time with that way of thinking? I thought we had learned that exposure to a wide variety of germs (especially at a young age) helped to build strong, healthy immune systems. Am I wrong on that? Is this all being done now to protect those people who have weakened immune systems?
I don't know if I disclosed this prior here....but do to family circumstances from the ages of 1/2 year to 3 1/2 years I was put in a Catholic "home" for boys. Thus for those three years of my life I was surrounded by other boys of all ages. And, presumably exposed to tons of germs since I was living with all of them. Note: I have ZERO memory of any of this. Just have some pictures of any of this.
From the end of 7th grade to 12th grade never missed a day school. Through 5 1/2 years of college never missed a class due to sickness. Have never missed any work due to being sick.
I always wondered if being exposed to all those germs during those years caused me to develope an extremely healthy immune system.
On the other hand at the age of 4 3/4's years old, I developed a ton of allergies, so severe that I did have a lot of half school days the first half of elementary school (though third grade) due to having to leave to get anti-histamine shots.
Thankfully, once I went through puberty all my allergies (except for hay fever) left me. And, hay fever also finally did leave some time in my 20s.
Vinny
I have the same experience. We allowed my son to sit out in the backyard and eat dirt and do all the stuff that little kids do. And he never, ever gets sick. In 11 years he has had maybe one bout of serious flu-like illness. My cousin, on the other hand, shelters her child from all germs, constantly washes the child's hands and hand sanitizes/wipes her at every turn. And of course that child is constantly sick with colds and other assorted respiratory illnesses.
I have read many articles over the years that ironically as our lives have become cleaner due to things like bottled water, more sterilized homes and workplaces etc. we are seeming to have more immune compromised citizens. That is why I was surprised at this sudden turn against being exposed to germs.
jalanlong wrote: ↑Thu Aug 06, 2020 9:43 am
Last night as I left my office I saw a new sign at the door. It was not Covid specific but said "STOP THE SPREAD OF GERMS" and gave you tips to do so. Then later in the night my son's remote learning instructions came in from the school district and they too had a PDF linked titled "Stopping the Spread of Germs."
I am no medical professional but aren't we going back in time with that way of thinking? I thought we had learned that exposure to a wide variety of germs (especially at a young age) helped to build strong, healthy immune systems. Am I wrong on that? Is this all being done now to protect those people who have weakened immune systems?
Apart from the issue of the medical wisdom, this is a truly frightening pivot that takes all this COVID craziness out of the "temporary emergency response" category and points us toward "perma-germophobe-safetyist-surveillance-police-state" territory.
