Coronavirus General Discussion

[Xan]

Here's another prediction for you guys: by the time the vaccine comes along, the virus will be over and done in most places - certainly in the U.S. And it will not make a noticeable dent in the progression of the virus as a result. Yet it will be hailed as the savior of us all, because now it will be "safe". I guess that the resulting economic recovery will be worth the billions of dollars that will be spent on it. Plus it will be genuinely useful for protecting high risk individuals and allowing nursing homes to reopen to visitors.

Who here plans to get the vaccine when it comes out? I'm pretty sure I will have no choice in the matter and I imagine MangoMan would have to as well. Also I'd want my mom (age 85) to get the vaccine. Her descent into Alzheimer's appears to have stabilized at least for now, she has no other medical issues, and she's still enjoying life, so....good calculus there.

Not me. Not unless I am forced. I get a flu shot every year, HepB and got the Shingrix vaccine this year. But no way will I be near the front of the line on this one.

You WILL be forced (most likely). Dr. Fauci gave as an example that during flu season at his hospital medical personnel were not allowed to see patients if the medical personnel had not had the flu shot.

Vinny

Wasn't that because of rules the hospital put in place? It wasn't a government order. Pugchief (I presume) runs his own shop and makes the rules.

[Cortopassi]

No threshold levels ever communicated.

As best we could tell, ND was counting on hope a bit too much.

Originally the students were self selecting for tests and did a health screen every morning. Now that's changed to random, assuming they open back up to in person.

[Tortoise]

In response to a question from a student if the vaccine should be mandated, he gave a firm NO. One of the reasons he gave was that it'd be illegal. And, he did not believe it to be necessary.

Fauci also told the nation several months ago that masks don’t help and that Americans shouldn’t wear them, so I take everything Fauci says with a grain of salt the size of Mt. Everest.

Even if Fauci is right that a vaccine won’t be mandated at the federal level, it might be mandated at the state level just as the lockdowns and mask-wearing have been.

[flyingpylon]

Indiana University seems to have a pretty robust plan for COVID-19. They are requiring all students living on-campus to be tested within 10 days of arrival, and then again at arrival. Off-campus students are required to be tested on arrival. They will be doing extensive surveillance testing and contact tracing during the semester and are building their own labs to process the tests.

Here are some of the criteria they will use to determine whether classes should go 100% virtual:

[vnatale]

Here's another prediction for you guys: by the time the vaccine comes along, the virus will be over and done in most places - certainly in the U.S. And it will not make a noticeable dent in the progression of the virus as a result. Yet it will be hailed as the savior of us all, because now it will be "safe". I guess that the resulting economic recovery will be worth the billions of dollars that will be spent on it. Plus it will be genuinely useful for protecting high risk individuals and allowing nursing homes to reopen to visitors.

Who here plans to get the vaccine when it comes out? I'm pretty sure I will have no choice in the matter and I imagine MangoMan would have to as well. Also I'd want my mom (age 85) to get the vaccine. Her descent into Alzheimer's appears to have stabilized at least for now, she has no other medical issues, and she's still enjoying life, so....good calculus there.

Not me. Not unless I am forced. I get a flu shot every year, HepB and got the Shingrix vaccine this year. But no way will I be near the front of the line on this one.

You WILL be forced (most likely). Dr. Fauci gave as an example that during flu season at his hospital medical personnel were not allowed to see patients if the medical personnel had not had the flu shot.

Vinny

Wasn't that because of rules the hospital put in place? It wasn't a government order. Pugchief (I presume) runs his own shop and makes the rules.

Correct. That's why I later qualified it with the parenthetical "most likely".

Vinny

[Xan]

Here's another prediction for you guys: by the time the vaccine comes along, the virus will be over and done in most places - certainly in the U.S. And it will not make a noticeable dent in the progression of the virus as a result. Yet it will be hailed as the savior of us all, because now it will be "safe". I guess that the resulting economic recovery will be worth the billions of dollars that will be spent on it. Plus it will be genuinely useful for protecting high risk individuals and allowing nursing homes to reopen to visitors.

Who here plans to get the vaccine when it comes out? I'm pretty sure I will have no choice in the matter and I imagine MangoMan would have to as well. Also I'd want my mom (age 85) to get the vaccine. Her descent into Alzheimer's appears to have stabilized at least for now, she has no other medical issues, and she's still enjoying life, so....good calculus there.

Not me. Not unless I am forced. I get a flu shot every year, HepB and got the Shingrix vaccine this year. But no way will I be near the front of the line on this one.

You WILL be forced (most likely). Dr. Fauci gave as an example that during flu season at his hospital medical personnel were not allowed to see patients if the medical personnel had not had the flu shot.

Vinny

Wasn't that because of rules the hospital put in place? It wasn't a government order. Pugchief (I presume) runs his own shop and makes the rules.

Correct. That's why I later qualified it with the parenthetical "most likely".

Vinny

So why are you saying Pugchief will be forced? Why would he be "most likely" to be forced?

[vnatale]

Indiana University seems to have a pretty robust plan for COVID-19. They are requiring all students living on-campus to be tested within 10 days of arrival, and then again at arrival. Off-campus students are required to be tested on arrival. They will be doing extensive surveillance testing and contact tracing during the semester and are building their own labs to process the tests.

Here are some of the criteria they will use to determine whether classes should go 100% virtual:

During the Dr. Fauci interview I believe I heard that for students coming from "hot spots" they will be required (by some colleges) to be tested prior to arriving on campuses.

Vinny

[vnatale]

Here's another prediction for you guys: by the time the vaccine comes along, the virus will be over and done in most places - certainly in the U.S. And it will not make a noticeable dent in the progression of the virus as a result. Yet it will be hailed as the savior of us all, because now it will be "safe". I guess that the resulting economic recovery will be worth the billions of dollars that will be spent on it. Plus it will be genuinely useful for protecting high risk individuals and allowing nursing homes to reopen to visitors.

Who here plans to get the vaccine when it comes out? I'm pretty sure I will have no choice in the matter and I imagine MangoMan would have to as well. Also I'd want my mom (age 85) to get the vaccine. Her descent into Alzheimer's appears to have stabilized at least for now, she has no other medical issues, and she's still enjoying life, so....good calculus there.

Not me. Not unless I am forced. I get a flu shot every year, HepB and got the Shingrix vaccine this year. But no way will I be near the front of the line on this one.

You WILL be forced (most likely). Dr. Fauci gave as an example that during flu season at his hospital medical personnel were not allowed to see patients if the medical personnel had not had the flu shot.

Vinny

Wasn't that because of rules the hospital put in place? It wasn't a government order. Pugchief (I presume) runs his own shop and makes the rules.

Correct. That's why I later qualified it with the parenthetical "most likely".

Vinny

So why are you saying Pugchief will be forced? Why would he be "most likely" to be forced?

I was leaning more toward not a government mandating it but some overseeing medical authority mandating it (which as I write this could be governmental or quasi-governmental).

Vinny

[barrett]

222 positive at ND. About a 20% positivity rate.

Are any of these kids actually feeling sick or being hospitalized, Corto? Or are these just positive tests?

Here in CT the numbers at UCONN are very low so far. Just talked to a friend whose kid goes there and found this online to corroborate what he had told me:

"So far, four on-campus students have tested positive for COVID-19 through the required check-in testing. Those four positives were identified out of a total of 3,739 tests, for a positivity rate of about 0.1%."

[Xan]

222 positive at ND. About a 20% positivity rate.

Are any of these kids actually feeling sick or being hospitalized, Corto? Or are these just positive tests?

Here in CT the numbers at UCONN are very low so far. Just talked to a friend whose kid goes there and found this online to corroborate what he had told me:

"So far, four on-campus students have tested positive for COVID-19 through the required check-in testing. Those four positives were identified out of a total of 3,739 tests, for a positivity rate of about 0.1%."

Isn't that also pretty close (or indeed under?) the FALSE positive rate of the test?

[Dieter]

Here schools are currently virtual only.

After the county is off of the state watch list, may go to 50% in person - half the students a day, students go twice a week.

Might be in two weeks (I have a kid in HS). Will be interesting to see what happens.

As for vaccine, well, my job doesn't out me in the front of the line.

I'm fine with that.

Would love to start partner dancing again, where might just need vaccine to be in a hall with 100+ people, exercising face to face...
(Not all that big of course, but none socially distanced....)

[Cortopassi]

222 positive at ND. About a 20% positivity rate.

Are any of these kids actually feeling sick or being hospitalized, Corto? Or are these just positive tests?

Here in CT the numbers at UCONN are very low so far. Just talked to a friend whose kid goes there and found this online to corroborate what he had told me:

"So far, four on-campus students have tested positive for COVID-19 through the required check-in testing. Those four positives were identified out of a total of 3,739 tests, for a positivity rate of about 0.1%."

As far as I know, no hospitalizations, and no talk of any symptoms other than minor. So there's that.

ND had all kids test before coming on campus, 33 out of 11,000 or so.

[shekels]

Mandatory vaccinations in Australia

https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/healt ... 67f22e41a3

Rethinking their statement.
Australian PM Backtracks on ‘Mandatory’ Coronavirus Vaccine Program.

https://www.breitbart.com/health/2020/0 ... e-program/

Separately, Australia has also signed a deal worth $18m with Becton Dickinson, an American pharmaceutical company, to supply 100 million needles and syringes.

[pp4me]

Separately, Australia has also signed a deal worth $18m with Becton Dickinson, an American pharmaceutical company, to supply 100 million needles and syringes.

Damn, BD was one of only two individual stocks I ever bought - on the recommendation of Jim Cramer. I think it was around $25 and now it's $266. Shoulda kept it.

[Tortoise]

Tennessee governor passes COVID-19 liability shield law.

This seems like a really good idea. I hope other states follow.

[Dieter]

Tennessee governor passes COVID-19 liability shield law.

This seems like a really good idea. I hope other states follow.

+1. I think the Feds should be pushing for all 50 states to do something similar.

It's not dangerous and people are overeacting, but if you do get it because of our policies, not our fault.

At least, how I read these things.

[Tortoise]

Tennessee governor passes COVID-19 liability shield law.

This seems like a really good idea. I hope other states follow.

+1. I think the Feds should be pushing for all 50 states to do something similar.

It's not dangerous and people are overeacting, but if you do get it because of our policies, not our fault.

At least, how I read these things.

Can I also blame a particular business's policies and sue them if I get the flu or a bad cold?

[Xan]

The only thing that scares me about these liability protection laws is that it sets the precedent that without such laws, there WOULD be liability. There is not right to not get sick and there shouldn't be.

My argument sounds a lot like the argument against the Bill of Rights back in the day: that argument was that such a thing was not needed, because a government elected by the people would never try to oppress them in those ways, and that enumerating some things that the government can't do makes it sound like they otherwise could do those things. Turns out we very much needed the Bill of Rights, so maybe we need these liability laws too.

[Dieter]

Tennessee governor passes COVID-19 liability shield law.

This seems like a really good idea. I hope other states follow.

+1. I think the Feds should be pushing for all 50 states to do something similar.

It's not dangerous and people are overeacting, but if you do get it because of our policies, not our fault.

At least, how I read these things.

No. It's more like it's impossible with something so contagious to be responsible even if proper precautions are taken.

My concern --

"Democratic lawmakers who opposed the bill said its extensive legal hurdles would shield even businesses that operate recklessly from being held liable for the sickness or death of customers or employees.

“If this becomes law, there is virtually no circumstance in which a person can bring a successful Covid-based lawsuit no matter how irresponsible the person who infected them was, because no doctor will ever be able to state with certainty that a defendant’s actions caused plaintiff’s injuries,” state Sen. Sara Kyle (D) said during Senate floor debate on Wednesday.

“The bill will embolden people who have not been taking this pandemic seriously to do even less. It will increase the spread of Covid at a time when we need to be doing more to stop it,” Kyle said.
"
https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-lab ... o-governor

But then, I'm one of those who thinks health care and sick leave should be expanded so folks didn't have to go to work sick if they want to eat or pay rent.

[Libertarian666]

The only thing that scares me about these liability protection laws is that it sets the precedent that without such laws, there WOULD be liability. There is not right to not get sick and there shouldn't be.

My argument sounds a lot like the argument against the Bill of Rights back in the day: that argument was that such a thing was not needed, because a government elected by the people would never try to oppress them in those ways, and that enumerating some things that the government can't do makes it sound like they otherwise could do those things. Turns out we very much needed the Bill of Rights, so maybe we need these liability laws too.

Exactly. That's also why we needed the "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act" (https://infogalactic.com/info/Protectio ... n_Arms_Act), to prevent people from being able to sue those manufacturers when their products work as intended. Of course that shouldn't have been necessary, but it was.

[WiseOne]

Slight change of subject. Well, two changes.

First up is another contribution to the Great Mask Debate. This is a video made by an OSHA specialist explaining about how mask laws effectively violate OSHA regulations. It's long, so here's the tl;dr: the reason that you can wear a surgical mask comfortably for long periods in an operating room is that extra oxygen is provided in the room to counter the reduction in O2 & increase in CO2 caused by the mask. Without this extra O2 support, you get headaches, nausea, fatigue, and general cardiopulmonary stress that can induce heart attacks in vulnerable people.

She does say one thing that's incorrect: Coronavirus particles are indeed 0.125 microns, but they are generally attached to stuff that's larger, around 3 microns. An N95 mask will stop these particles as it is effective down to 0.3 microns, but only if properly fitted and worn correctly. Surgical masks can filter in the range of 0.3 - 10 microns, so it will at best reduce the viral load - provided it is worn correctly and replaced when it gets wet or dirty. Anything else will generally not accomplish anything.

It's quite a long rant, but the core of the info is between 2 and 23 minutes.

https://youtu.be/8pr7nirqOzA

Next up is a shorter video by Ivor Cummins, the biomedical engineer I posted about previously who has been studying COVID data. He calls what's happening now a "casedemic" rather than a true epidemic, and shows parallels to the swine flu scare of 2008-2009. Very nicely explained in the video.

https://youtu.be/FU3OibcindQ

Enjoy!!

[pp4me]

I was watching this YouTube yesterday called "5 Bad Habits that Damage Your Brain" and it occurred to me that if sleeping with your head under the cover for 8 hours every night could have this effect why wouldn't wearing a mask all day do the same thing?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS1BTPIbXso&t=73s

[Kriegsspiel]

We were joking about churches declaring themselves protests in order to open, but those gym owners that Tim Pool lives near are actually doing it A Republican state senator has designated their gym one of his political locations, so they can't close it now. The last 6 minutes are excellent as well (well, mostly the bit around the 16 minute mark).

[Libertarian666]

We were joking about churches declaring themselves protests in order to open, but those gym owners that Tim Pool lives near are actually doing it A Republican state senator has designated their gym one of his political locations, so they can't close it now. The last 6 minutes are excellent as well (well, mostly the bit around the 16 minute mark).

Yes, I saw a reference to that somewhere. Great solution to an insane situation!

[Hal]

Meanwhile from "The peoples paradise of Victoria"

On Monday the premier, Daniel Andrews, said he would ask parliament to extend the allowable period for a state of emergency to 12 months, and then renew it, allowing Victoria to remain in a state of emergency until September next year.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... s-concerns