Coronavirus General Discussion

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Xan
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Xan » Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:09 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:23 pm
Libs don't care about things like freedom, and justice, and tyranny, and right vs. wrong, or their neighbor, or anyone else in general, or the future, or math, objective reality, cogent arguments, facts.............
I'm all for differing viewpoints, but when somebody can say something like this about how people "don't care about their neighbor" and in the very same sentence completely decry many of their neighbors (both here on this forum and in real life), I just don't get it. Take the beam out of your own eye.

This is chasing off Desert and Corto. I'd rather be on a forum with Desert and Corto than with SomeDude, and that's even though I really agree with SomeDude on most everything. So SomeDude can no longer post. Tomfoolery can no longer post. He thinks he's being playful but it's beyond tiresome and it boils down to constantly treating people he disagrees with like idiots.

KayFaybe is banned, but I think his raison d'etre is moot now that Tom won't be posting.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Kbg » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:11 am

Xan,

Thank you, long overdue.

Hopefully the board survives. It has turned from a board about the PP and investing to exactly what Desert mentioned.

Also, I don't think civility has declined amongst the long-term "regulars". I think these two showed up and ruined the board.

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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by WiseOne » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:40 am

Xan I understand your reasoning here, however I'm not sure why it only applies to the conservative viewpoints on the forum.

There are people on the liberal side who have not been banned, and yet have the same negative effect. Any thought of doing something about that?
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by jalanlong » Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:57 am

Xan wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:09 pm
SomeDude wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:23 pm
Libs don't care about things like freedom, and justice, and tyranny, and right vs. wrong, or their neighbor, or anyone else in general, or the future, or math, objective reality, cogent arguments, facts.............
I'm all for differing viewpoints, but when somebody can say something like this about how people "don't care about their neighbor" and in the very same sentence completely decry many of their neighbors (both here on this forum and in real life), I just don't get it. Take the beam out of your own eye.

This is chasing off Desert and Corto. I'd rather be on a forum with Desert and Corto than with SomeDude, and that's even though I really agree with SomeDude on most everything. So SomeDude can no longer post. Tomfoolery can no longer post. He thinks he's being playful but it's beyond tiresome and it boils down to constantly treating people he disagrees with like idiots.

KayFaybe is banned, but I think his raison d'etre is moot now that Tom won't be posting.
Yeah with all due respect if you think that their comments are incendiary then you have not been on Facebook and Twitter enough. At least here we can joke and laugh and I don't take any offense from anyone. This place is WAY more tolerant of opposing viewpoints than other places online and that is why I post here and not any any other social media forums. I would have to think twice about staying here if people are going to be banned for posting "tiresome" things. Plus they are posting in the misc political forums and you get what you pay for on those. Its not like they are invading the investing forums with it.
Last edited by jalanlong on Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Xan » Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:13 am

WiseOne wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:40 am
Xan I understand your reasoning here, however I'm not sure why it only applies to the conservative viewpoints on the forum.

There are people on the liberal side who have not been banned, and yet have the same negative effect. Any thought of doing something about that?
I can't think of anybody who has had the negative effect that SomeDude and Tomfoolery have had. They chased off Ad O which is a crying shame, maybe Corto and Desert too which is also awful, and who knows how many others are put off from participating by their toxicity.

It sounds like you have someone specific in mind? KayFabee might qualify and he in fact was banned.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Xan » Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:14 am

jalanlong wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:57 am
Yeah with all due respect if you think that there comments are incendiary then you have not been on Facebook and Twitter enough. At least here we can joke and laugh and I don't take any offense from anyone. This place is WAY more tolerant of opposing viewpoints than other places online and that is why I post here and not any any other social media forums. I would have to think twice about staying here if people are going to be banned for posting "tiresome" things. Plus they are posting in the misc political forums and you get what you pay for on those. Its not like they are invading the investing forums with it.
I think I've been on Twitter and Facebook just the right amount: zero. I agree with what you say about toleration of opposing viewpoints. It isn't the viewpoints that are the problem.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Xan » Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:17 am

MangoMan wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:52 am
Xan wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 9:09 pm
SomeDude wrote:
Tue Oct 05, 2021 2:23 pm
Libs don't care about things like freedom, and justice, and tyranny, and right vs. wrong, or their neighbor, or anyone else in general, or the future, or math, objective reality, cogent arguments, facts.............
I'm all for differing viewpoints, but when somebody can say something like this about how people "don't care about their neighbor" and in the very same sentence completely decry many of their neighbors (both here on this forum and in real life), I just don't get it. Take the beam out of your own eye.

This is chasing off Desert and Corto. I'd rather be on a forum with Desert and Corto than with SomeDude, and that's even though I really agree with SomeDude on most everything. So SomeDude can no longer post. Tomfoolery can no longer post. He thinks he's being playful but it's beyond tiresome and it boils down to constantly treating people he disagrees with like idiots.

KayFaybe is banned, but I think his raison d'etre is moot now that Tom won't be posting.
With all due respect, Xan, don't you think some kind of warning is in order?
My first instinct to see more good posters leaving as a result of their presence was to shut the place down entirely as just not worth it. So let's try this. I'm much more concerned about being fair to the vast swathes of worthwhile participants than I am to the people who are causing the problem.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by jalanlong » Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:28 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:13 am
WiseOne wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:40 am
Xan I understand your reasoning here, however I'm not sure why it only applies to the conservative viewpoints on the forum.

There are people on the liberal side who have not been banned, and yet have the same negative effect. Any thought of doing something about that?
I can't think of anybody who has had the negative effect that SomeDude and Tomfoolery have had. They chased off Ad O which is a crying shame, maybe Corto and Desert too which is also awful, and who knows how many others are put off from participating by their toxicity.

It sounds like you have someone specific in mind? KayFabee might qualify and he in fact was banned.
My reaction to this is that if they are put off by the political forums, then why can they not just ignore those? I completely understand if it was in the investing forums because that is invading the core part of the board. But for the misc forums I think that outside of direct insults people should just be adults and disregard what they do not find suits them. And I would not call anything on this board remotely toxic in comparison to other internet boards. It may be poor or tiresome attempts at humor in some cases but not toxic.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:59 am

WiseOne wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:40 am
Xan I understand your reasoning here, however I'm not sure why it only applies to the conservative viewpoints on the forum.

There are people on the liberal side who have not been banned, and yet have the same negative effect. Any thought of doing something about that?
WiseOne, I have zero issue with conservative viewpoints. But some of the stuff that is spouted here just makes me continually wonder why I come back. such as SD's recent comment:

"Libs don't care about things like freedom, and justice, and tyranny, and right vs. wrong, or their neighbor, or anyone else in general, or the future, or math, objective reality, cogent arguments, facts............."

What kind of BS wide swath libs all suck comment is that, and how does that add to the conversation? Those are the kind of comments that get under my skin.

Pug, on the other hand, has a hard ass attitude on some things, but we can have a reasonable, but sometimes heated conversation. SD's comments, to me, generally have seemed instead to be thinking about what can I possibly write to tweak these people as much as possible vs. a good back and forth.

My two cents.
Last edited by Cortopassi on Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Oct 06, 2021 10:00 am

jalanlong wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:28 am
Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:13 am
WiseOne wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:40 am
Xan I understand your reasoning here, however I'm not sure why it only applies to the conservative viewpoints on the forum.

There are people on the liberal side who have not been banned, and yet have the same negative effect. Any thought of doing something about that?
I can't think of anybody who has had the negative effect that SomeDude and Tomfoolery have had. They chased off Ad O which is a crying shame, maybe Corto and Desert too which is also awful, and who knows how many others are put off from participating by their toxicity.

It sounds like you have someone specific in mind? KayFabee might qualify and he in fact was banned.
My reaction to this is that if they are put off by the political forums, then why can they not just ignore those? I completely understand if it was in the investing forums because that is invading the core part of the board. But for the misc forums I think that outside of direct insults people should just be adults and disregard what they do not find suits them. And I would not call anything on this board remotely toxic in comparison to other internet boards. It may be poor or tiresome attempts at humor in some cases but not toxic.
jalanlong, I am opted out of the political forum, but I still like following the Covid stuff.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Kbg » Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:08 pm

The three folks who got banned…I could care less about their politics. It was their toxicity and for two, absolutely zero value added. SomeDude had the gold deal posts which was it for value added.

Is the above statement even debatable?

Being a lib on either extreme doesn’t give one the right to essentially blow up a board…when the board moderator thinks of quitting, that’s a problem.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Tortoise » Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:20 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:28 am
My reaction to this is that if they are put off by the political forums, then why can they not just ignore those? I completely understand if it was in the investing forums because that is invading the core part of the board. But for the misc forums I think that outside of direct insults people should just be adults and disregard what they do not find suits them. And I would not call anything on this board remotely toxic in comparison to other internet boards. It may be poor or tiresome attempts at humor in some cases but not toxic.
Bullseye.

I've blocked a few members, and the feature works great. Sometimes I click on the blocked members' posts to expand and read them, sometimes I don't. The choice is mine. If I lack the self-control to avoid posts by someone who makes my blood boil, that's purely my problem, not theirs.

The whole notion that the forum has a uniform "brand" for everyone, and that a given member's posts can tarnish that "brand", is kind of silly. The "brand" is highly customizable and varies heavily depending on which sub-forums and threads you choose to read and participate in, and which members you choose to block (or not).

This forum continues to be a microcosm of society at large: The tug-of-war between the priority of freedom and logic vs. the priority of decorum and feelings is continuing to separate people into two incompatible tribes.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:29 pm

I support Xan. He volunteered for a tough, mostly thankless role. I too hope Corto and Desert stick around; I have found their contributions value adding.

FWIW, I only frequent four forums, one of which is this one. A year plus ago I dropped off all social media platforms which I found to have devolved into a cesspool of toxicity. I am about ready to quit one of the four forums due to the condescending toxic tone of one long time member that the moderators refuse to address. One or two toxic members can destroy the whole thing for all … something about one bad apple can ruin the whole bushel. I was considering whether to continue here as well. Thus, I heartily support Xan and thank him for his actions of not violin playing or rearranging the deck chairs while the ship gains momentum to go under. Maybe we can all try to do better in thoughtfully thinking how our posts can be perceived and thus choose our words and tone carefully. Blessings to all.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by flyingpylon » Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:58 pm

Saw this today by total coincidence (if anything in the universe is a coincidence)...

Image
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Kbg » Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:18 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 1:20 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:28 am
My reaction to this is that if they are put off by the political forums, then why can they not just ignore those? I completely understand if it was in the investing forums because that is invading the core part of the board. But for the misc forums I think that outside of direct insults people should just be adults and disregard what they do not find suits them. And I would not call anything on this board remotely toxic in comparison to other internet boards. It may be poor or tiresome attempts at humor in some cases but not toxic.
Bullseye.

I've blocked a few members, and the feature works great. Sometimes I click on the blocked members' posts to expand and read them, sometimes I don't. The choice is mine. If I lack the self-control to avoid posts by someone who makes my blood boil, that's purely my problem, not theirs.

The whole notion that the forum has a uniform "brand" for everyone, and that a given member's posts can tarnish that "brand", is kind of silly. The "brand" is highly customizable and varies heavily depending on which sub-forums and threads you choose to read and participate in, and which members you choose to block (or not).

This forum continues to be a microcosm of society at large: The tug-of-war between the priority of freedom and logic vs. the priority of decorum and feelings is continuing to separate people into two incompatible tribes.
Technically true and theoretically correct.

Reality check: There was an exodus of quality posters to the board in December. As Charlie Munger says, invert, always invert. What if someone who is polite, considerate, well spoken/written wants to go to the "Other Section" and engage in political discussion? Must they wade through a sewer and be ridiculed for a differing political opinion to the point they say "screw it" to the whole board? Or as was continuously the case, factual information completely scorned because the receiver has a single self-created reality impervious to anything contrary to their political or COVID beliefs?

If a new board member came here they would see "red", they most likely would click on the "red." If all the "red" is in the other section and by most standards they are seeing what appears to an alternate universe, why stay?

But to the point: Why would anyone want to moderate an investing board where 80-90% of the posts are 10 people discussing far right politics and churning over COVID on a daily basis?
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Tortoise » Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:39 pm

Kbg wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:18 pm
Reality check: There was an exodus of quality posters to the board in December. As Charlie Munger says, invert, always invert. What if someone who is polite, considerate, well spoken/written wants to go to the "Other Section" and engage in political discussion? Must they wade through a sewer and be ridiculed for a differing political opinion to the point they say "screw it" to the whole board? Or as was continuously the case, factual information completely scorned because the receiver has a single self-created reality impervious to anything contrary to their political or COVID beliefs?
Forum members on both sides of the political and Covid debates here have expressed frustration at various times that the other side is ignoring certain facts. Much of the debate here centers around where those facts are being reported, and how we are synthesizing them to reach a particular viewpoint.

Kbg wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:18 pm
If a new board member came here they would see "red", they most likely would click on the "red." If all the "red" is in the other section and by most standards they are seeing what appears to an alternate universe, why stay?
Sounds to me like a problem of too little content in the investing sub-forums, not of too much content in the Other sub-forum. The Other sub-forum doesn't parasitically suck activity out of the investing sub-forums. Silencing certain posts in the Other sub-forum doesn't automatically create more posts in the investing sub-forums.

The Other or Political sub-forums can easily be ignored by joining the Non-Other or Non-Political groups. That's precisely why Xan created them. If a new member doesn't even bother to read the stickies about how this forum works (including group subscriptions), that's entirely their own problem, not ours.

If any of you really want to see more activity in the investing sub-forums, be the change you want to see in the world: Start some new investing threads! And try to keep them going. Then more of the "red" will be investing-related, and guests and new members will see them and hopefully want to engage.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Kbg » Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:08 pm

Fair.

The problem is generally you want some engagement/useful comments on what is posted.

But yeah, if you want a right wing political board of 10 people then I guess we will all see if Xan wants to continue to host one.

I think you substantively ducked the newbie turnoff question though. Boards are like restaurants; they attract or lose customers based on what they have to offer. My argument is that seriously obnoxious posters and a majority of posts by volume that turn off half the country is not likely an appetizing place most want to eat.

As a personal example, I came here from Bogleheads and it (here back in the day) was an excellent place to be. I find myself more and more back on Bogleheads and less and less here because of both toxicity and lack of investing content. Booting toxic posters happens all the time on many forums. I don't see a problem with it at all. My worry is that the damage is done and the investing section isn't going to survive.

Regardless of where we stand on any of this, I think we would all observe that board participation and investing content is way down.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Oct 06, 2021 7:41 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 2:29 pm
I support Xan. He volunteered for a tough, mostly thankless role. I too hope Corto and Desert stick around; I have found their contributions value adding.

FWIW, I only frequent four forums, one of which is this one. A year plus ago I dropped off all social media platforms which I found to have devolved into a cesspool of toxicity. I am about ready to quit one of the four forums due to the condescending toxic tone of one long time member that the moderators refuse to address. One or two toxic members can destroy the whole thing for all … something about one bad apple can ruin the whole bushel. I was considering whether to continue here as well. Thus, I heartily support Xan and thank him for his actions of not violin playing or rearranging the deck chairs while the ship gains momentum to go under. Maybe we can all try to do better in thoughtfully thinking how our posts can be perceived and thus choose our words and tone carefully. Blessings to all.

100%
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Kbg » Thu Oct 07, 2021 2:10 pm

+100% more
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by pp4me » Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:12 pm

In defense of tomfoolery he sent me a PM just before he got banned in which he dropped out of the tomfoolery character and shared some information about our mutual respect for Thomas Sowell.

His posts were confusing and troll-like to be sure but I think he meant well.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Xan » Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:55 pm

pp4me wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 3:12 pm
In defense of tomfoolery he sent me a PM just before he got banned in which he dropped out of the tomfoolery character and shared some information about our mutual respect for Thomas Sowell.

His posts were confusing and troll-like to be sure but I think he meant well.
He and SomeDude haven't technically been banned; they've been prevented from making public posts. They are still able to communicate via PM.

I do think he meant well, and I wish he had posted some of those thoughts about Sowell for us to ponder on instead of just a constant stream of garbage.

And I appreciate the support, guys, and I also completely understand if people don't like the recent move. There's no one correct, perfect way to do this. I wish there were!
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by vnatale » Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:45 pm

Another study.

Is this a reputable journal?

Vinny

CORRESPONDENCE
Published: 30 September 2021
Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States
S. V. Subramanian & Akhil Kumar
European Journal of Epidemiology (2021)Cite this article



Vaccines currently are the primary mitigation strategy to combat COVID-19 around the world. For instance, the narrative related to the ongoing surge of new cases in the United States (US) is argued to be driven by areas with low vaccination rates [1]. A similar narrative also has been observed in countries, such as Germany and the United Kingdom [2]. At the same time, Israel that was hailed for its swift and high rates of vaccination has also seen a substantial resurgence in COVID-19 cases [3]. We investigate the relationship between the percentage of population fully vaccinated and new COVID-19 cases across 68 countries and across 2947 counties in the US.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Benko » Thu Oct 07, 2021 10:51 pm

https://www.whec.com/coronavirus/news10 ... s/6261160/

Vaccinated person gets covid, is hospitalized and worsens, fails all other treatments and was in ICU on ventilator, dying. Family inquires about ivermectin, and agrees to sign a liability waiver and pt is prescribed ivermectin. Hospital refuses to administer it. Family sues hospital, judge sides with family and hospital still refuses. PT dies.

Off label use of drugs was pretty standard practice.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by boglerdude » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:30 am

> He and SomeDude haven't technically been banned; they've been prevented from making public posts

Just dont let them post in the "serious" investment forums. Create an "anything goes" subforum
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by WiseOne » Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:54 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:13 am
WiseOne wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 8:40 am
Xan I understand your reasoning here, however I'm not sure why it only applies to the conservative viewpoints on the forum.

There are people on the liberal side who have not been banned, and yet have the same negative effect. Any thought of doing something about that?
I can't think of anybody who has had the negative effect that SomeDude and Tomfoolery have had. They chased off Ad O which is a crying shame, maybe Corto and Desert too which is also awful, and who knows how many others are put off from participating by their toxicity.

It sounds like you have someone specific in mind? KayFabee might qualify and he in fact was banned.
I can name names if you'd like me to - perhaps by PM. There is one poster who has rendered the forum nearly unreadable - even with the blocking feature - and contributes almost nothing. A few others contribute long, rambling, "wall of text" prose that essentially block discussion rather than add to it. Those posters haven't been active lately and if they've been chased off by Tomfoolery and SomeDude, then that's all to the good in my opinion.

There are also a number of posters on both sides, but mainly in the far-left camp, who too often respond with simple contradiction and sometimes outright personal insults, which also doesn't foster good discussion. Sort of like the Monty Python "argument clinic" sketch, except it's not funny in real life.
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