Coronavirus General Discussion

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dualstow
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by dualstow » Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:39 am

Frontline’s always good.
‘China’s COVID Secrets’ • https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film ... d-secrets/
I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:01 pm
Just ran into my former neighbor. His wife died got COVID and died last month. She’d have been mid 70s, with some conditions. Damn.
When this started, we were saying we don’t know anyone who knows anyone who died. That has changed.
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:43 am

dualstow wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:39 am
Frontline’s always good.
‘China’s COVID Secrets’ • https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film ... d-secrets/
I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:01 pm
Just ran into my former neighbor. His wife died got COVID and died last month. She’d have been mid 70s, with some conditions. Damn.
When this started, we were saying we don’t know anyone who knows anyone who died. That has changed.
I'm up to about half a dozen in the category now, add them to the list. :'(
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by barrett » Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:49 am

dualstow wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:39 am
When this started, we were saying we don’t know anyone who knows anyone who died. That has changed.
Right. I had two business acquaintances who died from "COVID complications". Ages 70 & 58. Don't know the extent of their comorbidities. Mathjak and his wife continue to have had a rough time even several weeks later. So it seems for most of us it's nothing but for a lot of people that's not the case.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by barrett » Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:57 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:43 am
I'm up to about half a dozen in the category now, add them to the list. :'(
Damn, that's rough. Were most of them elderly, Moutaineer? It's very sobering to think that you have lost so many.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by WiseOne » Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:11 am

dualstow wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:39 am
Frontline’s always good.
‘China’s COVID Secrets’ • https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film ... d-secrets/
I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:01 pm
Just ran into my former neighbor. His wife died got COVID and died last month. She’d have been mid 70s, with some conditions. Damn.
When this started, we were saying we don’t know anyone who knows anyone who died. That has changed.
I know of a number of people who have died of COVID - and a number of people who died of other causes in the last year. The latter are the majority, so far.

All the people I know of were older and had the well-known metabolic-syndrome risk factors. That of course didn't make it any less painful for their families and friends, but it's right in line with what we know about how the risk of this virus is distributed. I also know quite a lot of people who have had COVID, or tested positive for it but remained asymptomatic. All of them were NOT in the high risk group. Some of them said it was the worst flu they ever had, others were mildly sick for a few days. They're all fine, no residual problems.

The nice thing about this virus, if there is such a thing, is the extreme skewing of risk to a very well defined segment of the population. That makes decisions a whole lot easier than if the risk profile were more evenly spread out. Your risk will never be zero though, so for people who consider any nonzero risk to be unacceptable that will certainly factor into their decisions.

Of course, to be consistent those people should also immediately and permanently modify their lifestyles to be free of all risk. No driving, no crossing streets, no travel of any sort, no participating in sports or intense physical activity, etc etc. I really wonder if there are people out there who are starting to think along these lines. That may well be the enduring legacy of COVID, which is not fun to contemplate.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:53 am

I still don't know anyone who's died from it. Closest is someone I worked with that said her husband's dad died from it, but (paraphrasing) he was old and sick and something else would have gotten him soon if COVID hadn't. I probably don't know as many old people as some of the geezers here ;D
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by vnatale » Thu Feb 04, 2021 10:48 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:53 am

I still don't know anyone who's died from it. Closest is someone I worked with that said her husband's dad died from it, but (paraphrasing) he was old and sick and something else would have gotten him soon if COVID hadn't. I probably don't know as many old people as some of the geezers here ;D


So far I'm in the same camp as you. I'm old, know old people but, thankfully, none of them have died from this cause.

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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:01 am

barrett wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:57 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 8:43 am
I'm up to about half a dozen in the category now, add them to the list. :'(
Damn, that's rough. Were most of them elderly, Moutaineer? It's very sobering to think that you have lost so many.
Some I knew. The others were those my family/friends knew. Ages:

40, 53, 70s, 70s, 80s, and three that I do not know ages of.

And another possible who is in his early 80s (with co-morbidities) that was taken to the hospital by ambulance this morning. Pray that he survives.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Maddy » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:13 am

Not to diminish the significance of any of these personal losses, but it's worth contemplating that there was no similar public outcry when this same group of people died from the flu last year.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:47 am

I remember reading something a long time ago that stuck with me, I think when the big SARS scare happened in 2004, that said if journalists reported on the flu like they reported on SARS people would be scared all the time.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:06 pm

I have not known anyone to get more than mildly ill (except one guy) from Covid. I know no one who has died.

I also don't recall ever knowing anyone specifically dying from the flu.

All I have to go on is the currently 451,000 number shown as deaths from Covid. We can fight all day on whether that number is valid Covid deaths, people can believe what they want.

I'll paste in the current CDC excess deaths again, since we haven't seen it in a while. Again, we can argue what % of these are from Covid, with Covid or caused because of lockdown stress related stuff. Whatever the cause, a lot of extra people have died in the past 12 months.

This has sucked all around. I think that's a opinion that we can probably all share.

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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Tortoise » Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:54 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:47 am
I remember reading something a long time ago that stuck with me, I think when the big SARS scare happened in 2004, that said if journalists reported on the flu like they reported on SARS people would be scared all the time.
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:06 pm
I also don't recall ever knowing anyone specifically dying from the flu.
Ditto. Over the years, I've occasionally heard about an elderly family friend or acquaintance who died of "pneumonia", but never of the "flu". The flu may have been the initial infection that ultimately led to the person developing pneumonia as a secondary infection, but prior to 2020 the focus always seemed to be on the pneumonia -- not the initial infection that ultimately led to the pneumonia.

Now, post-2020, the focus seems to have shifted to the initial infection rather than the pneumonia. Whether that shift in focus will be permanent remains to be seen, I guess.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:15 pm

I might be wrong, but do they normally even perform autopsies on elderly people? Like those in nursing homes, for instance? I get the impression that unless something suspiciious is noticed, they'll just say they "passed away" or "died of natural causes" or "peacefully in her sleep" or something like that.

At least for me, in the beginning, it was freaky to see all the reporting talking about how people were drowning in their own fluids, how everyone was getting it, etc. But when it came out that it was mostly elderly people dying from it, it was a big relief. Because that's what I feel like normal times are like. Except without the breathless reporting (going to hell, I KNOW).
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Tortoise » Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:23 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:15 pm
I might be wrong, but do they normally even perform autopsies on elderly people? Like those in nursing homes, for instance? I get the impression that unless something suspiciious is noticed, they'll just say they "passed away" or "died of natural causes" or "peacefully in her sleep" or something like that.
You're probably right about the nursing homes. When I occasionally heard of elderly family friends or acquaintances dying of "pneumonia" pre-2020, it typically meant they died in the hospital, not a nursing home. I.e., they were in the hospital, and the last thing they were being treated for before they died was pneumonia.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Feb 04, 2021 1:32 pm

Right, and in my mind, that seems like a normal way for an elderly person to go. It's not frightening, and most people don't think about it. With the Wuhan, I know people my age who haven't left their house in almost a year except to walk the dog.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:03 pm

Maddy wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 11:13 am
Not to diminish the significance of any of these personal losses, but it's worth contemplating that there was no similar public outcry when this same group of people died from the flu last year.
Completely agree with you Maddy. No one I knew or that my family/friends knew of died of the flu in the last several years. Thanks be to God for that.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:12 pm

I know there's hardly any middle on Covid, which is why I generally don't talk about it anymore outside of this forum.

But what I do try to do is recognize that everyone handles this differently. Still two people (out of 35) at work who have pretty much not been in the office since last March.

12 people (out of 35) have had it.

None of them wear masks in the office anymore (I still do).

Kriegs, up here with "the Wuhan" ;)

I know it is just a stupid discussion forum, but that type of wording automatically paints you into a position. You may be happy in that position, and not give a crap about anyone else thinking differently about you because of the way you approach it. That's your right.

Just want to point out I personally try to see both sides on everything, and am not inclined to call it by anything other than Covid nowadays to prevent people forming an unintended opinion.

Off soapbox.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:22 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 2:12 pm
Kriegs, up here with "the Wuhan" ;)

I know it is just a stupid discussion forum, but that type of wording automatically paints you into a position. You may be happy in that position, and not give a crap about anyone else thinking differently about you because of the way you approach it. That's your right.

Just want to point out I personally try to see both sides on everything, and am not inclined to call it by anything other than Covid nowadays to prevent people forming an unintended opinion.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by WiseOne » Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:22 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:54 pm
Ditto. Over the years, I've occasionally heard about an elderly family friend or acquaintance who died of "pneumonia", but never of the "flu". The flu may have been the initial infection that ultimately led to the person developing pneumonia as a secondary infection, but prior to 2020 the focus always seemed to be on the pneumonia -- not the initial infection that ultimately led to the pneumonia.

Now, post-2020, the focus seems to have shifted to the initial infection rather than the pneumonia. Whether that shift in focus will be permanent remains to be seen, I guess.
Very perceptive of you Tortoise!

The flu generally kills via a secondary bacterial pneumonia, and it's the pneumonia that lands people in the hospital. By that time, you don't really know what caused it anymore, could be any one of a hundred different cold viruses. The flu test itself is amazingly insensitive, so it's next to useless for diagnosis - especially as it is only positive for a few days near the beginning of the course.

With COVID, we have this overly sensitive test that is throwing a big wrench into the epidemiology. There's never been a situation like this, and it will probably take years to sort it out. Previously, diseases have always been diagnosed clinically, with tests to provide supportive data but never the last word. It seems that's all been forgotten and we don't do it that way anymore. Probably that's why the flu has all but disappeared, since positive tests for that are so rare and now it can't be diagnosed anymore.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Don » Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:48 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 3:22 pm
Tortoise wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 12:54 pm
Ditto. Over the years, I've occasionally heard about an elderly family friend or acquaintance who died of "pneumonia", but never of the "flu". The flu may have been the initial infection that ultimately led to the person developing pneumonia as a secondary infection, but prior to 2020 the focus always seemed to be on the pneumonia -- not the initial infection that ultimately led to the pneumonia.

Now, post-2020, the focus seems to have shifted to the initial infection rather than the pneumonia. Whether that shift in focus will be permanent remains to be seen, I guess.
Very perceptive of you Tortoise!

The flu generally kills via a secondary bacterial pneumonia, and it's the pneumonia that lands people in the hospital. By that time, you don't really know what caused it anymore, could be any one of a hundred different cold viruses. The flu test itself is amazingly insensitive, so it's next to useless for diagnosis - especially as it is only positive for a few days near the beginning of the course.

With COVID, we have this overly sensitive test that is throwing a big wrench into the epidemiology. There's never been a situation like this, and it will probably take years to sort it out. Previously, diseases have always been diagnosed clinically, with tests to provide supportive data but never the last word. It seems that's all been forgotten and we don't do it that way anymore. Probably that's why the flu has all but disappeared, since positive tests for that are so rare and now it can't be diagnosed anymore.
WiseOne, I like in Queens and am 64.5 years old. I have cancer. How is it possible that I have zero priority in getting the vaccine shot, while teachers, restaurant workers and the homeless get priority? I believe that I'm at three times the risk of dying from Covid than most people are.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by dualstow » Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:13 pm

I’ll take the other side of that coin, Tortoise & WiseOne. I think we should be more scared of the flu than we are. Not panicky scared, not avoiding life or justifying lockdowns. Just aware that it does sometimes kill young, healthy people with muscles.

Don, I’m very sorry to hear that you have cancer.
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Don » Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:35 pm

dualstow wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:13 pm
I’ll take the other side of that coin, Tortoise & WiseOne. I think we should be more scared of the flu than we are. Not panicky scared, not avoiding life or justifying lockdowns. Just aware that it does sometimes kill young, healthy people with muscles.

Don, I’m very sorry to hear that you have cancer.
Thank you.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Tortoise » Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:35 pm

dualstow wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 4:13 pm
I’ll take the other side of that coin, Tortoise & WiseOne. I think we should be more scared of the flu than we are. Not panicky scared, not avoiding life or justifying lockdowns. Just aware that it does sometimes kill young, healthy people with muscles.
Oh, I definitely have a healthy fear of the flu. Several years ago a bad case of it caused me to pass out in my bathroom and wake up on the floor, confused for a minute about where I was and what had happened.

I guess I have a similar attitude toward most contagious respiratory viruses like the flu, colds, and even Covid: Avoid them within reason while getting on with my normal life. I avoid touching my face when outside my house, wash my hands before I eat, and wash my hands when I step inside my house. Once every year or two I still get sick and feel like shit for a few days. Just part of my life.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by WiseOne » Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:50 am

Yes, I'm more or less on Tortoise's page as regards the flu. I didn't say it wasn't important, I said it can no longer be diagnosed because there isn't a sensitive enough test for it.

The question, I guess, is whether it's worth tanking the economy and shutting down schools every winter when the flu/respiratory viruses come around, in this era in which even miniscule risks from infectious disease are no longer considered acceptable.

Don, sorry to hear about your situation. As you know, the vaccine's rollout is thoroughly politicized. The priority groups are a lot more about lobbies, unions, and politically favored groups than about risk, because the risk stratification that we here are all aware of has been eclipsed by the press coverage implying that everyone is at an unacceptable level of risk.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by jalanlong » Fri Feb 05, 2021 8:53 am

WiseOne wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 9:11 am
dualstow wrote:
Thu Feb 04, 2021 7:39 am
Frontline’s always good.
‘China’s COVID Secrets’ • https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film ... d-secrets/
I Shrugged wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2021 10:01 pm
Just ran into my former neighbor. His wife died got COVID and died last month. She’d have been mid 70s, with some conditions. Damn.
When this started, we were saying we don’t know anyone who knows anyone who died. That has changed.
I know of a number of people who have died of COVID - and a number of people who died of other causes in the last year. The latter are the majority, so far.

All the people I know of were older and had the well-known metabolic-syndrome risk factors. That of course didn't make it any less painful for their families and friends, but it's right in line with what we know about how the risk of this virus is distributed. I also know quite a lot of people who have had COVID, or tested positive for it but remained asymptomatic. All of them were NOT in the high risk group. Some of them said it was the worst flu they ever had, others were mildly sick for a few days. They're all fine, no residual problems.

The nice thing about this virus, if there is such a thing, is the extreme skewing of risk to a very well defined segment of the population. That makes decisions a whole lot easier than if the risk profile were more evenly spread out. Your risk will never be zero though, so for people who consider any nonzero risk to be unacceptable that will certainly factor into their decisions.

Of course, to be consistent those people should also immediately and permanently modify their lifestyles to be free of all risk. No driving, no crossing streets, no travel of any sort, no participating in sports or intense physical activity, etc etc. I really wonder if there are people out there who are starting to think along these lines. That may well be the enduring legacy of COVID, which is not fun to contemplate.
I have a lot of surprises taken from the last year. That is certainly one of my top ones: that there is a non-inconsequential segment of our population who is very happy to just stay holed up in their house forever to avoid any risk. And also that a large amount of society has no ability to calculate risk and will avoid going to the dentist to not get Covid but will also ride their bikes in big city downtown traffic on a daily basis. Maybe it is the illusion of control. They feel they can control driving or biking but cannot control Covid.
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